Warning shots where into, how do bullets behave

Para Bellum · February 23, 2005, 04:13 PM

There is an excellent thread here "would you get involved"
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=163237

This raises the question on warning shots. I once fired one achieving the perfect result. Attacker

and me

I was lucky to wander in a park and be sure that the lawn wouldn't make my bullets ricochet. But what on the sidewalk, street or in a mall?

Is there data or info on how defense bullets (9x19mm) like HydraShoks or EMFJ behave when fired into a street or a sidewalk?

yorec · February 23, 2005, 04:18 PM

Yeah, they behave unpredictably... Same as if they hit a pebble or sprinkler head in a lawn.

Firing warning shots is a bad idea.

U.F.O. · February 23, 2005, 04:21 PM

Bad idea, always. If you pull your gun and the BG sees it and runs, fine. Any shot should be at the target.....if you have justification.

U.F.O.

Para Bellum · February 23, 2005, 04:22 PM

Quote:

if they hit a pebble or sprinkler head in a lawn

thats why I fired in about a 45° angle away from me. worked perfectly (little sissy 9x19 EMFJ blew a hole into the lawn the size of my fist).

1BadF350 · February 23, 2005, 04:28 PM

Warning shots should always be fired at center mass of the BG.

Troponin · February 23, 2005, 04:30 PM

I believe some states actually have laws against firing a warning shot. IMO, if you are going as far as having to fire a warning shot, the target has all intentions of harming you and obviously they are too crazy to care that you have a gun.

Para Bellum · February 23, 2005, 04:33 PM

what about dogs. I don't shoot a dog just because it freaks our. I also don't risk being torn apart by it. So, a warning shot seems to be a good dog deterrant.

....and the question was: How do bullets behave when fired into a street or sidewalk, and data or info?

Troponin · February 23, 2005, 04:36 PM

PB, I believe it was breifly answered above. There is no way to know how it will react. The angle it can be shot at, the rouch suface being a non-flat area, size of bullet and force, how far you are to it...It's just not predictable IMO. In other words, data would be moot.

U.F.O. · February 23, 2005, 04:42 PM

Quote:

what about dogs

Carry OC. If it doesn't work.....shoot them.

Quote:

....and the question was: How do bullets behave when fired into a street or sidewalk, and data or info?

No legitimate training facility teaches how to fire warning shots because firing warning shots is a horrible idea. Figuring out terminal ballistics is hard enough without having to worry about how a bullet will bounce off concrete. As previously mentioned, it's also against the law in many states.

U.F.O.

PinnedAndRecessed · February 23, 2005, 04:44 PM

Quote:

I believe some states actually have laws against firing a warning shot.

Buddy of mine was a manager/bartender and tried to attract the attention of police in the vicinity of a crime. (Misdemeanor, IIRC.) He tried to attract their attention by firing his revolver into the air. They arrested him on the spot.

yorec · February 23, 2005, 04:56 PM

45 degree angle away from you, Para? Maybe you're missing the point here - no one is worried about you. It's the kid down the street you don't see that takes the bullet after it ricochettes off that hidden sprinkler head that we're worried about. Shots that hit outside of a target area are unpredictable and uncontrolled and therefore dangerous to the public at large. (though maybe a banked lawn would be as good a place as any for an impromtu backstop - but concrete and pavement is NOT)

Anytime someone shoots in self defense they need to be able to justify that thier life was in danger. Otherwise they should not have shot. Warning shots don't quite meet this criteria - if your life was really in danger, why didn't you shoot the threat? That's what the lawyer for that hypothetical kid's folks are going to ask in the lawsuit. And he's going to be asking the shooter, not the threat who ran away into the shadows at the sound, never to be seen again...

It worked once - no one got hurt. Great. Next time, if there ever is one, hopefully you'll remember that Mr. Murphy isn't always on days off...

Dogs are just as much a threat to life and limb as any bad guy. If they need shooting, I believe a threat is a threat regardless of the number of legs it has.

Troponin · February 23, 2005, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinnedAndRecessed

Buddy of mine was a manager/bartender and tried to attract the attention of police in the vicinity of a crime. (Misdemeanor, IIRC.) He tried to attract their attention by firing his revolver into the air. They arrested him on the spot.

Although he meant well, that seems a bit silly. Was it actully inside of the bar? If it was outside, then surely the use of his weapon to aid someone in danger would have been a wiser choice.

Para Bellum · February 23, 2005, 05:00 PM

..surely is a bad idea. The bullet comes down with almost the same speed it went up. many people die or get hurt by "celebration shots" fired in to the air and coming down again in arab countries...

I therefore see a point in that arrest.

Hey yorec:
great website. but the gun seems a bit exaggerated if wou worry about ricochets. What wouldn't you penetrate with it? An M1-A2 Tank?

caegal · February 23, 2005, 05:30 PM

It always makes me cringe in the movies, the cops are chasing the BG down a city street, and they fire a warning shot!

That warning shot would go into the nearest skyscraper! Chances are it would not hit anyone, but if it did you would be going to jail for manslaughter at the least.

That being said, shoot when neccisary, and shoot to kill.

Jungle Work · February 23, 2005, 05:44 PM

There was once an officer in the Agency I worked for that fired a "Warning Shot" into the ground in front of some perps who were going to kick his fourth point of contact. I jsut so happended that it hit a rock and one of the perps fell over, DRT. Boy had some splainin' to do.

Now that I'm a citizen, there might be a time I use a "warning shot", but then again I'll know where the shot will land.

Jungle Work

InToItTRX · February 23, 2005, 05:51 PM

No warning shots are a bad idea, I have seen to many "accidents" happen.

Firing in the air? Is even a worse idea, and illegal here in Arizona.

Mastrogiacomo · February 23, 2005, 06:31 PM

I'm sure in my state it's illegal to fire warning shots-- just about everything else is so why not this? Sidewalks, air, curb, dog, etc. Foolish thing to do -- fire at the threat or don't -- no two ways about it.

reildeal · February 23, 2005, 06:38 PM

Myself and 3 of my friends when I was in highschool went out into the woods with 3 22's and a 12 ga. We were just shooting cans and the such. One of my friends crossed a stream, looked down into it and Says "Oooohh Fish!" As soon as the rest of us heard this, we bolted. We knew what was about to happen. He brought the 12 ga to shoulder and fired at the water. I won't forget the sound of all that shot that came flying off of the water into the trees around us as we were laying in the dirt. Needless to say, we were pissed. Doesn't really apply to the warning shot, but the same principles apply.

froader · February 23, 2005, 07:22 PM

In colorado, the standard that allows you to draw (brandish) a afirearm is the same that allows you to use deadly force, so if you have reason to draw by definition you have reason to fire.

For many reasons stated here warning shots are a bad idea. And for the average civilian, depending on local laws, unless the BG turns immediately (and I mean IMMEDIATELY) and runs away, just shoot him.

This has also been stated around this site by some, but one thing a lot of people don't understand is that while you might feel safe holding your piece on a guy 8 or even 10 feet away, it's amazing how fast a desperate person can react. If he decides to move on you you might/might not get a chance for only one shot. And since he's moving, you might miss. Or if he's on adrenalin or drugs, he might now notice he's hit right away. Now he's got your gun.

I know when I'm watching movies and the good guy has the bad guy at gunpoint, and the bad guy keeps moving forward until he can strike, I get really pissed off; learn the lesson from Hollywood -- if you have a BG at gunpoint and he's not immediately acuqiescing to you or running away, neutralize the threat before he gets your gun and neutralizes you.

My .02.

BTW -- technically it is pretty safe to fire a gun STRAIGHT into the air. When the slug comes to a complete stop and starts to fall, it falls with no more energey than a slug dropped from that height. And because of air pressure it reaches its terminal (maximum) velocity very quickly. That said -- the terminal velocity of a heavy slug of aerodynamic lead could be sufficient to do some bodily harm.

Whenever you see those arab wedding parties shooting AK's straight into the air, a few seconds later the lead starts coming down on them. Nobody generally gets hurt.

now firing your gun anything other than straight up, like at a 45 degree angle ... in that case the bullet will has some pretty good trajectory on it when it comes back down and can definitely still hurt someone. Seems like every year there's somebody killed by a freak bullet fired at a high angle a couple of miles away.

abelew · February 23, 2005, 09:18 PM

Why? If you are justified in a warnig shot, your justified in shooting the target, just shoot the target, and not the air, waisted bullet, no hearing, and possability of injuring external party

**JohnKSa** · February 23, 2005, 11:39 PM

I have never, EVER, NOT EVER, (NEVER) seen ANY authority on self-defense or firearms advocate the use of warning shots.

I have seen many authorities on self-defense and firearms say that warning shots are a very bad idea.

If you are justified in firing a shot, you should be aiming at the threat. If you do not feel justified in firing at the threat then you should not fire at all.

There is no way to predict what the bullet is going to do or where it is going to go for certain unless there happens to be a well-designed backstop handy and at the proper angle to you.

I'm glad that you achieved good results by using a warning shot in the past, but I would recommend that you never do it again.

snacktrack · February 23, 2005, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Warning shots should always be fired at center mass of the BG.

Lol, I second that!

Hey all this talk of OC spray makes me want to ask one question...WHAT THE HELL DOES OC stand for?

Anyone recommend a good site to order some Fox Labs OC spray from?

snacktrack · February 23, 2005, 11:46 PM

OK, all I had to do was a simple google search...sorry for being a lazy ass.

Quote:

Fox Labs sprays contain 2% Oleoresin Capsicum (OC)

Guy B. Meredith · February 24, 2005, 02:08 AM

My brother claims he tried some warning shots at two alcohol laced undocumented aliens that came after him with a machete and knife. Shot down towards their legs. They kept coming until the were able to touch his pistol and he aimed chest height. The time you waste with warning shots is critical.

Turns out he had placed some .45 acp rounds in their legs and they didn't even flinch or stumble. Imagine what the situation would be if they had been on stronger stuff. Even adrenaline will do it.

If someone comes after you when you are pointing a gun at them, something is wrong. I have seen stats that most criminals are jacked up and I would assume this is the case if I or mine are attacked.
No warning shots. They are a waste of ammo.

zulustyle · February 24, 2005, 02:29 AM

Howdy,
Personally I think it is a lot easier to explain why you chose to shoot the BG that posed a threat to you, than it is to explain why your warning shot killed an innocent bystander. I think a good example of this is how most of the victims in drive by shooting are killed by stray bullets. Granted the amount of lead in the airis definately greater but its the same principle. There is WAY too much uncertainy when it comes to warning shots.

February 23, 2005, 04:13 PM	#1
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	Warning shots where into, how do bullets behave There is an excellent thread here "would you get involved" http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=163237 This raises the question on warning shots. I once fired one achieving the perfect result. Attacker and me I was lucky to wander in a park and be sure that the lawn wouldn't make my bullets ricochet. But what on the sidewalk, street or in a mall? Is there data or info on how defense bullets (9x19mm) like HydraShoks or EMFJ behave when fired into a street or a sidewalk? __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

February 23, 2005, 04:18 PM	#2
yorec Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,328	Yeah, they behave unpredictably... Same as if they hit a pebble or sprinkler head in a lawn. Firing warning shots is a bad idea. __________________ What part of "... shall not be infringed..." don't you understand?

February 23, 2005, 04:21 PM	#3
U.F.O. Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2004 Location: TN Posts: 513	Bad idea, always. If you pull your gun and the BG sees it and runs, fine. Any shot should be at the target.....if you have justification. U.F.O. __________________ "But today you just read that the man was shot dead By a gun that didn’t make any noise But it wasn’t the bullet that laid him to rest was The low spark of high-heeled boys" ~Traffic - Stevie Winwood~

February 23, 2005, 04:28 PM	#5
1BadF350 Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: Ashburn, VA Posts: 915	Warning shots should always be fired at center mass of the BG. __________________ "I actually don't know what a barrel shroud is, I think it's a shoulder thing that goes up." Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) Author HR:1022, when asked what a barrel shroud is and why it needs to be regulated.

February 23, 2005, 04:33 PM	#7
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	Dogs e.g. what about dogs. I don't shoot a dog just because it freaks our. I also don't risk being torn apart by it. So, a warning shot seems to be a good dog deterrant. ....and the question was: How do bullets behave when fired into a street or sidewalk, and data or info? __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

February 23, 2005, 04:30 PM	#6
Troponin Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Pencil vain ea Posts: 380	I believe some states actually have laws against firing a warning shot. IMO, if you are going as far as having to fire a warning shot, the target has all intentions of harming you and obviously they are too crazy to care that you have a gun.

February 23, 2005, 04:36 PM	#8
Troponin Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Pencil vain ea Posts: 380	PB, I believe it was breifly answered above. There is no way to know how it will react. The angle it can be shot at, the rouch suface being a non-flat area, size of bullet and force, how far you are to it...It's just not predictable IMO. In other words, data would be moot.

February 23, 2005, 04:56 PM	#11
yorec Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,328	45 degree angle away from you, Para? Maybe you're missing the point here - no one is worried about you. It's the kid down the street you don't see that takes the bullet after it ricochettes off that hidden sprinkler head that we're worried about. Shots that hit outside of a target area are unpredictable and uncontrolled and therefore dangerous to the public at large. (though maybe a banked lawn would be as good a place as any for an impromtu backstop - but concrete and pavement is NOT) Anytime someone shoots in self defense they need to be able to justify that thier life was in danger. Otherwise they should not have shot. Warning shots don't quite meet this criteria - if your life was really in danger, why didn't you shoot the threat? That's what the lawyer for that hypothetical kid's folks are going to ask in the lawsuit. And he's going to be asking the shooter, not the threat who ran away into the shadows at the sound, never to be seen again... It worked once - no one got hurt. Great. Next time, if there ever is one, hopefully you'll remember that Mr. Murphy isn't always on days off... Dogs are just as much a threat to life and limb as any bad guy. If they need shooting, I believe a threat is a threat regardless of the number of legs it has. __________________ What part of "... shall not be infringed..." don't you understand?

February 23, 2005, 05:00 PM	#13
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	into the air ..surely is a bad idea. The bullet comes down with almost the same speed it went up. many people die or get hurt by "celebration shots" fired in to the air and coming down again in arab countries... I therefore see a point in that arrest. Hey yorec: great website. but the gun seems a bit exaggerated if wou worry about ricochets. What wouldn't you penetrate with it? An M1-A2 Tank? __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

February 23, 2005, 05:30 PM	#14
caegal Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Posts: 114	It always makes me cringe in the movies, the cops are chasing the BG down a city street, and they fire a warning shot! That warning shot would go into the nearest skyscraper! Chances are it would not hit anyone, but if it did you would be going to jail for manslaughter at the least. That being said, shoot when neccisary, and shoot to kill.

February 23, 2005, 05:44 PM	#15
Jungle Work Junior member Join Date: January 31, 2005 Location: 20 Miles from Water, 2 Miles from Hell Posts: 282	There was once an officer in the Agency I worked for that fired a "Warning Shot" into the ground in front of some perps who were going to kick his fourth point of contact. I jsut so happended that it hit a rock and one of the perps fell over, DRT. Boy had some splainin' to do. Now that I'm a citizen, there might be a time I use a "warning shot", but then again I'll know where the shot will land. Jungle Work

February 23, 2005, 05:51 PM	#16
InToItTRX Registration in progress Join Date: December 8, 2004 Posts: 304	No warning shots are a bad idea, I have seen to many "accidents" happen. Firing in the air? Is even a worse idea, and illegal here in Arizona. __________________ \

February 23, 2005, 06:31 PM	#17
Mastrogiacomo Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,297	I'm sure in my state it's illegal to fire warning shots-- just about everything else is so why not this? Sidewalks, air, curb, dog, etc. Foolish thing to do -- fire at the threat or don't -- no two ways about it.

February 23, 2005, 06:38 PM	#18
reildeal Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 115	Myself and 3 of my friends when I was in highschool went out into the woods with 3 22's and a 12 ga. We were just shooting cans and the such. One of my friends crossed a stream, looked down into it and Says "Oooohh Fish!" As soon as the rest of us heard this, we bolted. We knew what was about to happen. He brought the 12 ga to shoulder and fired at the water. I won't forget the sound of all that shot that came flying off of the water into the trees around us as we were laying in the dirt. Needless to say, we were pissed. Doesn't really apply to the warning shot, but the same principles apply.

February 23, 2005, 07:22 PM	#19
froader Member Join Date: February 14, 2005 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 29	In colorado, the standard that allows you to draw (brandish) a afirearm is the same that allows you to use deadly force, so if you have reason to draw by definition you have reason to fire. For many reasons stated here warning shots are a bad idea. And for the average civilian, depending on local laws, unless the BG turns immediately (and I mean IMMEDIATELY) and runs away, just shoot him. This has also been stated around this site by some, but one thing a lot of people don't understand is that while you might feel safe holding your piece on a guy 8 or even 10 feet away, it's amazing how fast a desperate person can react. If he decides to move on you you might/might not get a chance for only one shot. And since he's moving, you might miss. Or if he's on adrenalin or drugs, he might now notice he's hit right away. Now he's got your gun. I know when I'm watching movies and the good guy has the bad guy at gunpoint, and the bad guy keeps moving forward until he can strike, I get really pissed off; learn the lesson from Hollywood -- if you have a BG at gunpoint and he's not immediately acuqiescing to you or running away, neutralize the threat before he gets your gun and neutralizes you. My .02. BTW -- technically it is pretty safe to fire a gun STRAIGHT into the air. When the slug comes to a complete stop and starts to fall, it falls with no more energey than a slug dropped from that height. And because of air pressure it reaches its terminal (maximum) velocity very quickly. That said -- the terminal velocity of a heavy slug of aerodynamic lead could be sufficient to do some bodily harm. Whenever you see those arab wedding parties shooting AK's straight into the air, a few seconds later the lead starts coming down on them. Nobody generally gets hurt. now firing your gun anything other than straight up, like at a 45 degree angle ... in that case the bullet will has some pretty good trajectory on it when it comes back down and can definitely still hurt someone. Seems like every year there's somebody killed by a freak bullet fired at a high angle a couple of miles away. __________________ "He who is free, but cannot defend that freedom, is not truly free, but merely lucky." "Every man is king within the reach of his own sword."

February 23, 2005, 09:18 PM	#20
abelew Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 778	Why? If you are justified in a warnig shot, your justified in shooting the target, just shoot the target, and not the air, waisted bullet, no hearing, and possability of injuring external party __________________ "Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." ~ Mohatma Gandhi

February 23, 2005, 11:39 PM	#21
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,985	I have never, EVER, NOT EVER, (NEVER) seen ANY authority on self-defense or firearms advocate the use of warning shots. I have seen many authorities on self-defense and firearms say that warning shots are a very bad idea. If you are justified in firing a shot, you should be aiming at the threat. If you do not feel justified in firing at the threat then you should not fire at all. There is no way to predict what the bullet is going to do or where it is going to go for certain unless there happens to be a well-designed backstop handy and at the proper angle to you. I'm glad that you achieved good results by using a warning shot in the past, but I would recommend that you never do it again.

February 24, 2005, 02:08 AM	#24
Guy B. Meredith Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 1999 Location: Salem, Oregon Posts: 1,581	My brother claims he tried some warning shots at two alcohol laced undocumented aliens that came after him with a machete and knife. Shot down towards their legs. They kept coming until the were able to touch his pistol and he aimed chest height. The time you waste with warning shots is critical. Turns out he had placed some .45 acp rounds in their legs and they didn't even flinch or stumble. Imagine what the situation would be if they had been on stronger stuff. Even adrenaline will do it. If someone comes after you when you are pointing a gun at them, something is wrong. I have seen stats that most criminals are jacked up and I would assume this is the case if I or mine are attacked. No warning shots. They are a waste of ammo.

February 24, 2005, 02:29 AM	#25
zulustyle Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2004 Location: metro Atlanta, Ga Posts: 103	Howdy, Personally I think it is a lot easier to explain why you chose to shoot the BG that posed a threat to you, than it is to explain why your warning shot killed an innocent bystander. I think a good example of this is how most of the victims in drive by shooting are killed by stray bullets. Granted the amount of lead in the airis definately greater but its the same principle. There is WAY too much uncertainy when it comes to warning shots.