*very* basic HD shotgun questions

[nodrog]

Hello! Sorry to spam the forum with questions that have undoubtedly been asked and answered multiple times before...but......

1) I have realized that because I live with close by neighbors, that a pistol is inappropriate for HD because a miss (or even a hit!) could end up in my neighbors' houses.
2) a shotgun is the logical alternative, however I read in a book that buckshot vs birdshot doesn't make a lot of difference at close range spread-wise, though it makes a world of difference neighbor-wise.
3) a light? seems to me that a attached light just shows the bad guy where you are, but I've read a number of posts where people feel a light is supposedly crucial. Since I have young family members at home, I am considering a light on my 870. Suggestions? What's the rationale behind a light? And is low-light practice really that useful?

many thanks if any of you are willing to answer these ground-level questions for me.

- Gordon

[45King]

The rationale behind the light is Rule #4: always verify your target, and what is behind it, before you shoot.
You may not need the light to aim an accurate shot, but you want to make damn sure that accurate shot hits the BG and not your spouse/child/dog/etc. By the time you switch it on, you should be ready to fire, and the light will only be on for as long as it takes for you to verify that the target is indeed what/who you think it is.

At the ranges found inside the average home, #4 buck, or even #4 shot could be equally effective, if you hit center mass. Whatever load you pick, shoot it on paper enough to know exactly what it's going to do at 5, 10, 15, and 20 feet. Practice A LOT. Firearm retention techniques need to be practiced, too. Any long gun is more subject to getting snatched than a handgun. You should have a pistol back-up anytime you are using a long gun inside the home for just such a scenario. If someone grabs the barrel of your shotgun, it will take him longer to turn it on you than it would for you to just relinquish your grip and then draw and fire your pistol.
Of course, the best idea in HD is to not go hunting the intruder, but to get your family into your hardened "safe" room and then contact police with a cell phone while covering the door with the SG.

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Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center

[gunmart]

i use a m3 taclight on my ar-15 for hd.i also use my water bed for cover.i am hoping that the water in it will slow down a bullet enough so it would not be leathal.does anyone have any real experiance in water testing.?

[jthuang]

Hi nodrog. Don't worry about asking questions, it's the only way to go.

1. Handguns do have their place for HD. A handgun is the best tool to use for clearing. The short length allows you to clear while minimizing your target indicators. That said, you are correct in that most popular defensive handgun rounds will penetrate more than your defensive shotgun round.

2. At your typical A-zone (i.e., contact distances) the birdshot will not have left the shot cup. Buckshot will do the same. The effect is that one "solid" mass of lead slams into the target. Very effectively, might I add.

Buckshot is reliably effective out to about 25 yards, birdshot to maybe 7 yards. Look at the distances in your apartment and see what is more appropriate. Birdshot will indeed lose kinetic energy much faster than buckshot and stands to penetrate less when going through walls, etc.

3. Concur with 45king, Rule #4 is just as important as the other three safety rules. If used improperly, a light can give away your position but training can fix that. You should, if clearing using a shotgun, use indirect lighting (e.g., bounce the light off the ceiling to light up a room) in conjunction with a hand-held flashlight (in addition to your weapon-mounted light) which will help hide your precise location.

Low light practice is very important, I would posit that most HD situations occur after nightfall.

Justin

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Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

[MB0R0MAN]

First off I believe someone mentioned #4 buck shot for home defense, which in my opinion is a bad Idea, buckshot tends to pass through sheetrock walls and still be extremely lethal on the other side.

I do not recommend anyone "clear" a house with a shotgun when they are alone. When law Enforcement "teams" clear houses they tend to run in packs with the officer armed with the shotgun in the forward Breech position. Retaining a long gun in CQB is a dubious task to say the least. Now this is only a suggestion but I would recommend a .40cal medium sized DAO autoloader, with equipment rails ( Glock 23) with an M3 tactical light (The M3 is so bright when faced with this little monster it is natural reflex to turn away or close your eyes) The M3 can light up a completely darkened room and anyone on the wrong end of your weapon and light will have an impossible time seeing what's on the other side.

I do not recommend anyone "clear" a house period if it can be avioded. If you live alone your best bet is to stay put call the police and wait, if the intruder is foolish enough to enter your room despite your warnings (which are also overheard by the 911 operator on the phone) Then let the police know they can slow down, and tell them to bring the coroner with them.

However if you have children or loved ones in other parts of the house making sure the house is secure asap is what you are going to do anyway. Then be safe about it, some tips on effective room clearing are as follows.

#1 Keep finger off trigger.
#2 Do not crowd corners, take them wide.
#3 Please think about what you are using for cover there are few things inside modern homes that will afford you adequate protection, learn what will.
#4 Be absolutely sure of your target.
#5 Quarter a room, when you come to the door of a room check the corner to your right, move into the middle of the door and check the right side, check the left side then check the left corner** All of this should be done before entering the threshold of the door**.
#6 Keep both eyes open, fight to keep yourself from focusing too tightly and getting tunnel vision.
#7 Practice on an empty house, with an empty gun, most people would be surprised on how difficult their own home would be to clear effectively.

Last but not least, tell your family what to do in the event something like this happens. I'm sure most of you have drilled with your kids about what to do in the event of a fire, so should you with the intruder(s) scenario. REMEMBER It is not the obligation of the police to protect you or your family, that obligation falls upon "real men/women" take it seriously folks. I hope I haven't bored you all to death.

[Ledbetter]

Welcome to TFL, MB0R0MAN.

Thanks for the good advice.

[nodrog]

Wow, I sure appreciate the sensible responses I got to my question. Further info please:
I am not a LEO, neither am I extensively trained in firearms usage. I have owned my Glocks and 12ga for about 2 years, I had virtually no gun experience before that. I make it a point to go to the range at least once a month, so I _am_ practicing, mostly with my pistols. While I know the need for low-light practice, I haven't done any yet.
I guess my point is that I'm not nearly as well trained (ie: confident) as I will eventually be. I practice point shooting, quickly aimed shooting and plain old target shooting. I am getting much better but *I AM NOT CONFIDENT I COULD HIT A TARGET UNDER STRESS*. Perhaps someday, but sure not yet. I understand the logic of a handgun for HD, and I will get one of the lights for my Glock 22. However, given my uncertainty at response under stress and the nearness of the neighbors, I thought that a shotgun made the most sense since I'm very unlikely to hurt anyone if I miss.

HOWEVER, to play devil's advocate with myself......distances in a house aren't that great and I sure as hell can hit a man-sized target in the center of mass from less than 10 yards easily at the range. Add to this that I'm a single dad and am fierce about my protective devotion to my two kids (both of whom, 6 & 9, enjoy going to the outdoor range with me). I think it's unlikely I'd miss with those ranges and that motivation.

So which makes more sense to me? A shotgun: easier to disarm me in a struggle, less risk to neighbors
A handgun: far better if there's conflict, but neighborly risk if I have to shoot and miss.

Right now I'm thinking of practicing more frequently and getting the light for my Glock.

I am fortunate I live in a relatively crime-free area, but like I originally posted...I was burglarized a year ago so I am quite aware that It Could Happen To Me.....and I have two kids to take care of.

Thanks again for the quality replies.

Gordon

[MB0R0MAN]

Gordon: It's good that you do get to the range once a month, but I would suggest you go at least once a week, however I am quite aware that this sometimes is impossible for some people.

Either in the cost of ammo or the lack of time. A box of ammo for your G22 usually goes for around 10 to 12 dollars right? I'm not sure on how far you must travel to a range or the hassle involved. But becomming confident and well trained in the art of defending yourself and your family is nothing to skimp on.

You also mentioned that distances were not that far inside homes. That is true, what is also true is that most real world armed confrontations happen within arms reach out to 7 yards. With the M3 light your bullets go where the beam of lights go. Low light training is important. With the M3 there is no need for low light because once it's turned on night becomes day. But things do go wrong so being able to operate in low light conditions will not hurt you.

Now as to your question about which is better, shotgun/handgun, as I said before I only recommend people who have mastered the shotgun to use such a weapon to "clear" a house.

If all you must do is wait in your room on the phone with police, a shotgun is an excellent choice of weaponry.

In my opinion with a little more training and confidence building your Glock 22 with a M3 Tactical Illuminator,by Insight Technologies.
will be the better choice for home defense. I say this because you have children. Therefore you cannot just sit in your room on the phone with a 911 operator, and hope your kids will be alright.

You have to get to them and confirm, and make damn sure some sicko isn't threatening them. Now a .40cal self defense round will not make it through much more than two pieces of sheet rock. But try it for yourself, go to Lowes™ or Home Depot™ ask them for scrap pieces of sheetrock and take them to the range with you set them up like a wall. Buy a few boxes of different types and brands of ammo. See what works best for you.

Anyone who answers the call, anyone who takes the great responsibility that comes with having a lethal weapon for the purpose of self defense. Owes it to themselves to learn the local laws on self and home defense. What may be legal in my state may get you jail time in your state.

I'll let you in on a little secret though, I would rather be sitting in jail with a conviction looming over me than see anyone in my family dead, because I was too scared of the law to do anything about it. I feel if anyone breaks into my home and threatens my family or myself they have given up their right to live.

[RedCrosse]

Can one of you comment on the use of the voice when faced with a situation of a BG in your home? Silent? Loud? Do you tell the BG that you are armed? These may seem silly to others, but Gordon and I appear to be in the same level of knowledge here.

BTW, that list of four or five elementary parts of clearing was not boring at all. For some of us, this is the only place to hear that kind of thing. Any more like that is appreciated, because the husbands and fathers (and wives and mothers!) who listen in are very concerned about practical ways of protecting families (even more than 9mm vs. .45 if that were possible ).

[Dave McC]

Red,that's a question that lacks any simple answer. I know a woman who announced she had a gun when someone broke into her apt, the perp left PDQ.

But the next sociopath might just be looking for a challenge,and announcing your readiness may exascerbate the situation, not solve it.

And, the much vaunted sound of a shotgun being racked may serve/misserve just as a voice. I did stop an escape at the Md House of Correction once by racking an 870, but it's nothing to rely on.

Life is in itself uncertain, and HD is a very uncertain area to pontificate"Thus is the best way."....

[JNewell]

Well, I will be the first to yield to professionals, but to hazard an answer to Red's question -- a few thoughts.

First, keep your commands short and simple. Minimize the need for brain functioning; there's too much else going on to worry about elaborate conversation. And, _don't_ get into conversation!

Second, make sure they are commands. If you sound weak, that will be noted.

Third, think about what you're going to say (and therefore also about what you're going to want the attacker to do) beforehand. Again, don't be making this stuff up as you go along, under pressure.

[This message has been edited by JNewell (edited May 28, 2000).]

[B Shipley]

I just want to second the above. One of the best ways not to be a victim, from all the crime prevention stuff I've read, is not to look or act like one -- which means actively looking for threats and challenging them through your bearing/posture (but no verbal or direct visual challenges, just like with vicious dogs) before they make their move, so they know you are aware and ready to deal with them. This can be expanded into acting like you are the boss, even if you've #1 & 2ed your drawers, during a confrontation.

[Gary H]

These two books do an excellent job of providing a sense of what happens when you confront the dark side. I'm sure that most of you have read at least one of these. "The Ayoob Files" was really interesting. It removes all certainty as to how you think things should go down in a confrontation. It made me realize that whenever I would think of confronting a bad guy, I automatically assumed that he would respond as I would respond. Well, I don't have that FALSE premise roaming around in my brain.

Here are the links:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...592078-2030444
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...592078-2030444

[Ivanhoe]

The key word for any "tactical" light is *momentary*. You need the switch mechanism to allow you to quickly activate then deactivate the light. For shotguns, the top-drawer unit is made by Laser Products. Very expensive (probably in the low $200s by now) but their products are high quality. The momentary switch should be designed so that you cannot accidentally turn the light to "constant on" mode, which is why most of the cheaper solutions are unacceptable.

As for verbal interaction, keep in mind that in the literal sense you are issuing a challenge. Most will flee if given a chance, some will charge. Since it takes time for your brain to change from speaking mode to shooting mode, keep your commands short (Get Out!) and be ready for a charge before you start talking.

[Buckeye61]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gary H:

Here are the links:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...592078-2030444
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...592078-2030444 [/quote]

Well unfortunately it looks like both books are out of print and will take anywhere between 4-8 weeks from any net source and I can't envision having much better luck going to the local Barnes and Noble or similar bookstore. I wonder if the local libraries would have a copy of either title.

As for using a gun for home defense, I don't claim to be any sort of expert, far from it, but the same thought keeps running through my mind...no matter how much training I receive or how much reading I do on the subject will I ever really be prepared mentally to use lethal force on another human being? Obviously if someone is breaking into my home with bad intentions, I am going to do what I have to do to protect my own.

Maybe it's just me, then again maybe not, but the mental jump one has to make from blowing holes in paper or similar targets to blowing holes in a perp is astounding. Obviously you hope you never have to cross that bridge.

As both books you suggested are seemingly out of print, one I picked up at the local shop and is readily available on the net is The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery (ISBN# 0873491866). Lots of technical info, but also lots of practical info as well. Was written by a man named Chuck Taylor whose list of credentials is impressive to say the least.

[jthuang]

Mas Ayoob's books are not kept in stock by Amazon. Try LFI's shop (direct from the source!) at http://www.ayoob.com

HTH,

Justin

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Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

[Gary H]

I ordered my copies about six weeks ago and finished reading them last week. As suggested above, Amazon may not be the best source, but out of print they are not.

[animal]

nodrog: my take on your questions -

1.)Pistol vs. Shotgun - Have you considered frangible rounds in a pistol ? Most of my house guns are loaded with Glaser Blue Safety Slugs.
2.)My preferred HD shotgun round (factory)is a #6 magnum made by Rem. Peters.
3.)Don't know about lights on shotguns. If I want a light, I use a Brinkmann Maxstar (modified with a push button switch and very bright) with a pistol in the other hand. This is what I do but I don't call myself an expert on "tactical" type accessories.

As far as clearing a house is concerned, I say forget it. Make a plan to set up a defensive position between you(and yours) and the Gremlin. Call the cops and hold your ground. Make sure the cops know where you are. If the BG insists on coming to you it'll be his mistake.

Side note: I have "cleared a house" contrary to my own advice 4x. All 4 times I was alone. I would not willingly clear a house with the family at home. Doing so is putting their first line of defense (me) at risk. At such a time your primary responsibility is the protection of your family not your stuff.
Weigh your options, consider advice, and make the choice most comfortable to you. Best wishes - I hope you never need the weapon you select.

[Rob62]

Some good comments above.
The only thing I'd like to add is that anyone who is considering keeping or keeps a firearm for HD needs to be totally aware of the rules for use of deadly force, and how they apply in their jurisdiction.

Rob

RKBA!

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It's amazing what a large group of stupid people can accomplish.
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TFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000

[ChuteTheMall]

Among Ayoob's books, I also recommend Stressfire #1 (handguns) and
Stressfire #2 (shotguns) and Fundamentals of Impact Weapons (PR-24, Maglights, whatever is at hand).

I hope he comes out with another volume of The Ayoob Files, The Book. It is compelling reading.

For HD Shotgun topic, my Mossy 500 has 3 rounds of #7 bird shot in the tube, followed by 2 rounds of Fed Tac 00 buck. On a butt cuff there are 2 more 00 buck and 4 Fed Tac slugs. I keep the chamber empty and the mag downloaded to only 5 rounds because I don't get enough opportunities to shoot the scattergun compared to other weapons. If the 3rd round of bird shot hasn't ended the problem in my small apartment, keeping track of what ammo is up next will not be likely, but bigger may be better. Pistol and knife are more accessable for me at all times.

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Some people have a way with words. Others not have way.

[makarov]

If you are going to the range often a good .22 will really help improve your skills. I have found great improvement in my grip and concentration shooting several hundred rounds at a session. Try that with .40 or .45 and you will break the bank. Besides they are just plain fun, and good to teach others to shoot with.

[Bam Bam]

I don't have a lot of experience so I will just ask a question and make a little suggestion. With regards to the layout of your house, where is your bedroom situated in relation to the kids' room(s)? Would the BG have to go past your room to reach them? Or is their room(s) off a hall before yours? It seems to me this impacts the decision to use a light and/or set up a defensive perimiter. You definitely don't want to accidently shoot your children or leave them exposed out in front of the best defensive position in the house or have them be caught in a cross-fire while running to your room.

Also, is your bed or other big piece of furniture situated as defensive cover so that you can cover the bedroom door once the kids are safe in the perimiter?

I tend to think that any kind of a load coming out of shotgun at close range is gonna be pretty effective.

[This message has been edited by Bam Bam (edited June 18, 2000).]