1911 gunsmithing question - need fast answer on how many serialized parts!

Jim March · November 4, 2002, 01:19 PM

Folks, I need a FAST answer to the following:

How many parts on a Colt Commander (series 70) are serialized? Or rather, are any parts other than the frame serialized?

This will be a factor in an upcoming gun-rights lawsuit. Cannot disclose details yet.

If possible, please let me know a website or paper reference manual that could prove this.

Jim

Al Thompson · November 4, 2002, 01:27 PM

Kuhnhausen's book dosen't mention any serial numbers on the series '70 other than the frame. I've had several and never noticed a SN anywhere other than the frame.

HTH

BigG · November 4, 2002, 01:30 PM

Believe on the frame only.

Jim March · November 4, 2002, 01:45 PM

Right.

Court is the morning of Nov. 6th. I have until the evening of the 5th to come up with documentation.

Anybody?

BigG · November 4, 2002, 01:48 PM

I would think the Colt manual that comes with the pistol would tell where the serial # is. I'm at work but have some at home. No way to scan, though.

RickB · November 4, 2002, 01:54 PM

It is possible that a gun that was 'smithed or repaired could have the frame serial number added to the slide, to ensure that the correct parts get back together. I have two pistols with the serial number engraved on the slide with some kind of "electric pencil". It's possible that the barrel and bushing could be so-marked, but in all cases, this would be after manufacture and sale.

Jim V · November 4, 2002, 02:29 PM

Jim, since the frame is the part that people worry about (read that the feds), the frame is the only thing required to be serial numbered. Having said that, a few of the early Norincos (late '89 early '90) had the serial number stamped on both the frame and slide. The later Norincos had the serial number electric penciled on the barrel and magazines. The Norweigan M-1914s had the serial numbers on everything.

Hope this helps.

Ledbetter · November 4, 2002, 02:30 PM

Can you get a local gunsmith to testify as an expert that Colt only marks the serial number on the frame?

John Forsyth · November 4, 2002, 02:51 PM

As everyone has said, frame only.

Old Fuff · November 4, 2002, 03:52 PM

I trust we are talking about a standard production Colt Series 70 Commander. I would contact Colt at www.colt.com and ask their customer service department. Can't do better then that.

As for myself, I have disassembled a number of Commanders and have never found a serial number on anything but the frame. In past years, before the Commander came into being, slides were sometimes - and only sometimes - hand fitted to the frame and sometimes numbered (or partially numbered) so that after finishing the right slide could be matched to the right frame.

The most common place for slide markings is under the firing pin stop. I think it is highly doubtful that you will find a Commander with a serial numbered slide. Colt had no reason to number the slide because slides are interchangeable. Same with barrels.

However if any custom work was done on this particular gun all bets are off.

Jim Watson · November 4, 2002, 05:52 PM

I do not have a text reference to *say* a Commander has only one SN, located on the receiver; although my own guns are marked that way.

How about a real hardware exhibit?
Take in a Commander in bits in a cigar box and **show** that is the only SN location.

John Lawson · November 4, 2002, 07:29 PM

If you know somebody who has a manufacturing license, he could give you a reference in the ATF manual regarding handgun serializing.
Also, perhaps the 1932 and 35 national firearms laws. (These are re-printed in Dunlap's "Gunsmithing.")
Your ATF manual for FFL holders has a paragraph on re-numbering handguns.

Al Thompson · November 4, 2002, 07:34 PM

It occurs to me that your trying to prove a negative. Can you throw the ball back in their court and have them prove that anything else was numbered? Certainly no Federal requirement to do so.

BigG · November 4, 2002, 09:32 PM

Nope. I checked my Colt 45 manual and it doesn't tell where the serial no. is. I was going to offer to fax the page to you. Sorry!

Jim March · November 4, 2002, 09:37 PM

The "extreme reader's digest condensed version" is:

Cops decide that a guy is suicidal. He's not, 4 mental health experts agree on that point including the one that turned him loose immediately upon being brought in for "evaluation". No charges filed of any sort.

Cops confiscate his 1911 Colt Commander. They leave behind his Thomson Center Contender and an old Marlin 30-30 levergun.

Cops won't give 1911 back. BIG court fight in progress.

Guy who wants the gun back explained that the cops saw and ignored the other two guns, but have grabbed this one. Cops say they didn't see any other gun. Guy has witnesses who know that the other two are easily viewable in the living room, and for sure the Thomson handgun was registered to him, dunno about the Marlin.

The question is, why would the cops lie?

This department is hinky in a lot of ways. Also a lot of other lying in this case. For as little as $25, you can get a 1911 "rough casting" with no serial number, less than 49% complete so BATF doesn't call it a "gun". If you finish it yourself, you have to add a SN, private individuals can make one a year. The point is, that Commander's parts could be swapped to a new frame and built up as a new gun for peanuts 'cept for some gunsmith's four hours or so, with the old Commander frame getting destroyed.

IF the rest of the Commander's parts aren't serialized, this would work - and provide a motive for theft by cop.

If the purpose of the gun grab was to actually prevent suicide, they'd have grabbed his other two guns equally usable for that task. Instead, they grabbed the "coolest" assuming the guy wouldn't put up a fuss.

He did. Bigtime.

Now, Joe Waldron on the WA-CCW list had an alternate theory:

------------------------

> The "less than 49%" is a stretch. There's a lot simpler explanation:
>
> One of the cops already has a Commander (and maybe a Govt Model -- the
> Commander slide & barrel will fit, albeit with a slightly extended frame
> at the recoil spring housing, I've done it myself many times). This
> way he has a spare top half....
>
> Why would someone want a spare top half? Most logical explanation at
> this point is all the attention being paid to ballistic signatures. New
> top half provides a different barrel, a different firing pin, a
> different extractor and a different slide. Throw a new ejector onto
> the frame and you've just done a 100% signature change.
>
> Not that a cop would need to alter the signature of a gun he owned.
>
> Simplest explanation of all: just like why a dog can lick his balls...
> because he can. He's a cop, he wanted it, he had an excuse to take it,
> and now it's his (with a little collusion from the evidence locker
> custodian).
>
> Joe W

Joe Portale · November 4, 2002, 09:56 PM

Jim March,

Been through the ATF regs, got the book right here. The only part of a firearm that is **required** to have a serial number is the receiver. Under the eyes of the ATF, the receiver is the gun. Just our of idle curiosity, I looked at both my Colt 1911 Gubbermint and Commander. There is only one serial number, it is one the receiver. There are other numbers on the slides, but those are the patent number. The barrels do not have any serial numbers. Under the law, the receiver is the firearm, the rest is just parts.

Good luck. The whole story sounds a bit fishy.

**4V50 Gary** · November 4, 2002, 10:07 PM

As much as I hate to say it, but if the cops won't giv the gun back, that's a classic tort case of "conversion." Substantial interference with the chattel of another. If the interference is substantial, and it becomes with the greater passage of time, it amounts to a "forced sale" where the courts will require the tortfeasor to "buy" the gun from the plaintiff. Plaintiff should be prepared to show the court the price of replacement (plus any consequential fees like registration, trigger lock, court costs).

Old Fuff · November 4, 2002, 10:22 PM

I would think that if the police admitted they confiscated the Commander they would have to produce it in court. If they can’t, or won’t, some serious questions should be ask. I’m not sure I understand - do you expect them to produce anything (gun, parts - whatever)?

If the slide is marked “Commander” it was originally on a lightweight aluminum frame. If it is marked “Combat Commander” it was originally assembled on a steel frame.

There is a difference between the length of the recoil spring tunnel (that part of the frame in front of the feed ramp and above the trigger guard) on Commander vs. Government Model frames. If you look at both frames you will quickly see the difference. In addition there is another difference at the back of the frame where the grip safety goes. The Commander follows the lines of the 1911 pistol where Government Model frames follow the lines of the 1911-A1. Again if you compare frames you will quickly see the difference.

The original serial number will also tell you if the gun was originally a Commander or Combat Commander. This information might be available from the owner’s registration.

I suspect that the pistol may have been “commandeered” from the evidence or property room by some officer who took a liking to it. Said officer may be so sure of him/her self that they didn’t bother to change out the frame. At this point if the court case has made it “hot” they’ll probably dump it, or slip it back into evidence inventory when no one is looking.

Hope some of this will help. Good luck.

Don Shumar
Handgun Editor
American Firearms Industry Magazine.

James K · November 4, 2002, 11:03 PM

FWIW, the Commander at that time had a serial number with a CLW (Commander Light Weight) prefix, a 70BS or 70SC prefix. And AFAIK, the Colt Commander was serial numbered only on the frame and only on the left side.

However, BATF has tried to get makers to apply "hidden" serial numbers to be used in case the visible serial is drilled out or ground off, so this must be considered when examining a gun for a serial number.

The answer here seems quite simple. The plaintiff's attorney should ask the court to order the police to produce the gun. Even if they are genuinely concerned about the owner's mental state, they should have no problems placing the gun in custody of the court so the judge can decide its future status. If they can't or won't, they are in contempt of court, and the judge can decide what is to be done to reimburse the owner.

What the police might or might not do, or have done, or plan to do with the gun is not really relevant, and I am not sure making accusations will get anyone anywhere. Worse, the court could decide that wild and unsupported charges of police misfeasance, especially if made by the plaintiff, tend to support the police view that the person is unstable.

(Yes, we all know of police who "borrow" evidence - 5 kilos of heroin disappeared from one police evidence vault - but neither cops nor judges like to have their noses rubbed in it.)

Jim

Jim Watson · November 4, 2002, 11:35 PM

I think it is simpler yet. The Commander is stashed somewhere and will be left there until the case "blows over." Hopefully the citizen will persist. But how long can he pay a lawyer to pursue a $700 gun?

Don, don't count on roll markings to identify Commanders so precisely. My Commander (when new "Commander" MEANT the original lightweight gun) is marked "Commander Model." My Combat Commander is marked "Combat Commander." Very straighforward, right? Not quite.

I remember the sales pitch the dealer gave me about 28 years ago when the Combat Commander came out... "They mismarked 1200 Combat Commanders "Commander Model" so this gun will be worth a lot one day." I didn't buy it.
I dunno about the 1200 part, but I saw at the gunshow Sunday a pristine satin nickel Combat Commander clearly marked "Commander Model."

The rear frame "horns" on the 1911 in the next room are nothing like the ones on either of my Commanders (but are very similar to a 1911A1.) You have to go by the location of the recoil spring abutment and the length of the dust cover, not the rear end of the frame.

November 4, 2002, 01:19 PM	#1
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	1911 gunsmithing question - need fast answer on how many serialized parts! Folks, I need a FAST answer to the following: How many parts on a Colt Commander (series 70) are serialized? Or rather, are any parts other than the frame serialized? This will be a factor in an upcoming gun-rights lawsuit. Cannot disclose details yet. If possible, please let me know a website or paper reference manual that could prove this. Jim __________________ Jim March

November 4, 2002, 01:27 PM	#2
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	Kuhnhausen's book dosen't mention any serial numbers on the series '70 other than the frame. I've had several and never noticed a SN anywhere other than the frame. HTH __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

November 4, 2002, 01:30 PM	#3
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	Believe on the frame only. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

November 4, 2002, 01:45 PM	#4
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Right. Court is the morning of Nov. 6th. I have until the evening of the 5th to come up with documentation. Anybody? __________________ Jim March

November 4, 2002, 01:48 PM	#5
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	I would think the Colt manual that comes with the pistol would tell where the serial # is. I'm at work but have some at home. No way to scan, though. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

November 4, 2002, 01:54 PM	#6
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	It is possible that a gun that was 'smithed or repaired could have the frame serial number added to the slide, to ensure that the correct parts get back together. I have two pistols with the serial number engraved on the slide with some kind of "electric pencil". It's possible that the barrel and bushing could be so-marked, but in all cases, this would be after manufacture and sale.

November 4, 2002, 02:29 PM	#7
Jim V Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 1999 Location: SE Michigan - USA Posts: 4,038	Jim, since the frame is the part that people worry about (read that the feds), the frame is the only thing required to be serial numbered. Having said that, a few of the early Norincos (late '89 early '90) had the serial number stamped on both the frame and slide. The later Norincos had the serial number electric penciled on the barrel and magazines. The Norweigan M-1914s had the serial numbers on everything. Hope this helps. __________________ *MOLON LABE* If it ain't metal, single stack & single action, it ain't a 1911 no matter what it looks like. 1911 Forum THE TUBBY CURMUDGEON

November 4, 2002, 02:30 PM	#8
Ledbetter Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2000 Location: California USA Posts: 4,533	Jim, Can you get a local gunsmith to testify as an expert that Colt only marks the serial number on the frame?

November 4, 2002, 02:51 PM	#9
John Forsyth Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 378	As everyone has said, frame only. __________________ John

November 4, 2002, 03:52 PM	#10
Old Fuff Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 237	I trust we are talking about a standard production Colt Series 70 Commander. I would contact Colt at www.colt.com and ask their customer service department. Can't do better then that. As for myself, I have disassembled a number of Commanders and have never found a serial number on anything but the frame. In past years, before the Commander came into being, slides were sometimes - and only sometimes - hand fitted to the frame and sometimes numbered (or partially numbered) so that after finishing the right slide could be matched to the right frame. The most common place for slide markings is under the firing pin stop. I think it is highly doubtful that you will find a Commander with a serial numbered slide. Colt had no reason to number the slide because slides are interchangeable. Same with barrels. However if any custom work was done on this particular gun all bets are off.

November 4, 2002, 05:52 PM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	I do not have a text reference to say a Commander has only one SN, located on the receiver; although my own guns are marked that way. How about a real hardware exhibit? Take in a Commander in bits in a cigar box and show that is the only SN location.

November 4, 2002, 07:29 PM	#12
John Lawson Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 1999 Posts: 281	If you know somebody who has a manufacturing license, he could give you a reference in the ATF manual regarding handgun serializing. Also, perhaps the 1932 and 35 national firearms laws. (These are re-printed in Dunlap's "Gunsmithing.") Your ATF manual for FFL holders has a paragraph on re-numbering handguns. __________________ "Politicians are bilgewater in the ship of state."

November 4, 2002, 07:34 PM	#13
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	It occurs to me that your trying to prove a negative. Can you throw the ball back in their court and have them prove that anything else was numbered? Certainly no Federal requirement to do so. __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

November 4, 2002, 09:32 PM	#14
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	Nope. I checked my Colt 45 manual and it doesn't tell where the serial no. is. I was going to offer to fax the page to you. Sorry! __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

November 4, 2002, 09:37 PM	#15
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	The "extreme reader's digest condensed version" is: Cops decide that a guy is suicidal. He's not, 4 mental health experts agree on that point including the one that turned him loose immediately upon being brought in for "evaluation". No charges filed of any sort. Cops confiscate his 1911 Colt Commander. They leave behind his Thomson Center Contender and an old Marlin 30-30 levergun. Cops won't give 1911 back. BIG court fight in progress. Guy who wants the gun back explained that the cops saw and ignored the other two guns, but have grabbed this one. Cops say they didn't see any other gun. Guy has witnesses who know that the other two are easily viewable in the living room, and for sure the Thomson handgun was registered to him, dunno about the Marlin. The question is, why would the cops lie? This department is hinky in a lot of ways. Also a lot of other lying in this case. For as little as $25, you can get a 1911 "rough casting" with no serial number, less than 49% complete so BATF doesn't call it a "gun". If you finish it yourself, you have to add a SN, private individuals can make one a year. The point is, that Commander's parts could be swapped to a new frame and built up as a new gun for peanuts 'cept for some gunsmith's four hours or so, with the old Commander frame getting destroyed. IF the rest of the Commander's parts aren't serialized, this would work - and provide a motive for theft by cop. If the purpose of the gun grab was to actually prevent suicide, they'd have grabbed his other two guns equally usable for that task. Instead, they grabbed the "coolest" assuming the guy wouldn't put up a fuss. He did. Bigtime. Now, Joe Waldron on the WA-CCW list had an alternate theory: ------------------------ > The "less than 49%" is a stretch. There's a lot simpler explanation: > > One of the cops already has a Commander (and maybe a Govt Model -- the > Commander slide & barrel will fit, albeit with a slightly extended frame > at the recoil spring housing, I've done it myself many times). This > way he has a spare top half.... > > Why would someone want a spare top half? Most logical explanation at > this point is all the attention being paid to ballistic signatures. New > top half provides a different barrel, a different firing pin, a > different extractor and a different slide. Throw a new ejector onto > the frame and you've just done a 100% signature change. > > Not that a cop would need to alter the signature of a gun he owned. > > Simplest explanation of all: just like why a dog can lick his balls... > because he can. He's a cop, he wanted it, he had an excuse to take it, > and now it's his (with a little collusion from the evidence locker > custodian). > > Joe W __________________ Jim March

November 4, 2002, 09:56 PM	#16
Joe Portale Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 1999 Location: Tucson, Arizona Territory Posts: 715	Jim March, Been through the ATF regs, got the book right here. The only part of a firearm that is required to have a serial number is the receiver. Under the eyes of the ATF, the receiver is the gun. Just our of idle curiosity, I looked at both my Colt 1911 Gubbermint and Commander. There is only one serial number, it is one the receiver. There are other numbers on the slides, but those are the patent number. The barrels do not have any serial numbers. Under the law, the receiver is the firearm, the rest is just parts. Good luck. The whole story sounds a bit fishy. __________________ Joe Portale Tucson, Arizona Territory "Even now in heaven there are angles carrying savage weapons". - St Paul

November 4, 2002, 10:07 PM	#17
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	As much as I hate to say it, but if the cops won't giv the gun back, that's a classic tort case of "conversion." Substantial interference with the chattel of another. If the interference is substantial, and it becomes with the greater passage of time, it amounts to a "forced sale" where the courts will require the tortfeasor to "buy" the gun from the plaintiff. Plaintiff should be prepared to show the court the price of replacement (plus any consequential fees like registration, trigger lock, court costs). __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

November 4, 2002, 10:22 PM	#18
Old Fuff Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 237	I would think that if the police admitted they confiscated the Commander they would have to produce it in court. If they can’t, or won’t, some serious questions should be ask. I’m not sure I understand - do you expect them to produce anything (gun, parts - whatever)? If the slide is marked “Commander” it was originally on a lightweight aluminum frame. If it is marked “Combat Commander” it was originally assembled on a steel frame. There is a difference between the length of the recoil spring tunnel (that part of the frame in front of the feed ramp and above the trigger guard) on Commander vs. Government Model frames. If you look at both frames you will quickly see the difference. In addition there is another difference at the back of the frame where the grip safety goes. The Commander follows the lines of the 1911 pistol where Government Model frames follow the lines of the 1911-A1. Again if you compare frames you will quickly see the difference. The original serial number will also tell you if the gun was originally a Commander or Combat Commander. This information might be available from the owner’s registration. I suspect that the pistol may have been “commandeered” from the evidence or property room by some officer who took a liking to it. Said officer may be so sure of him/her self that they didn’t bother to change out the frame. At this point if the court case has made it “hot” they’ll probably dump it, or slip it back into evidence inventory when no one is looking. Hope some of this will help. Good luck. Don Shumar Handgun Editor American Firearms Industry Magazine.

November 4, 2002, 11:03 PM	#19
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	FWIW, the Commander at that time had a serial number with a CLW (Commander Light Weight) prefix, a 70BS or 70SC prefix. And AFAIK, the Colt Commander was serial numbered only on the frame and only on the left side. However, BATF has tried to get makers to apply "hidden" serial numbers to be used in case the visible serial is drilled out or ground off, so this must be considered when examining a gun for a serial number. The answer here seems quite simple. The plaintiff's attorney should ask the court to order the police to produce the gun. Even if they are genuinely concerned about the owner's mental state, they should have no problems placing the gun in custody of the court so the judge can decide its future status. If they can't or won't, they are in contempt of court, and the judge can decide what is to be done to reimburse the owner. What the police might or might not do, or have done, or plan to do with the gun is not really relevant, and I am not sure making accusations will get anyone anywhere. Worse, the court could decide that wild and unsupported charges of police misfeasance, especially if made by the plaintiff, tend to support the police view that the person is unstable. (Yes, we all know of police who "borrow" evidence - 5 kilos of heroin disappeared from one police evidence vault - but neither cops nor judges like to have their noses rubbed in it.) Jim

November 4, 2002, 11:35 PM	#20
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	I think it is simpler yet. The Commander is stashed somewhere and will be left there until the case "blows over." Hopefully the citizen will persist. But how long can he pay a lawyer to pursue a $700 gun? Don, don't count on roll markings to identify Commanders so precisely. My Commander (when new "Commander" MEANT the original lightweight gun) is marked "Commander Model." My Combat Commander is marked "Combat Commander." Very straighforward, right? Not quite. I remember the sales pitch the dealer gave me about 28 years ago when the Combat Commander came out... "They mismarked 1200 Combat Commanders "Commander Model" so this gun will be worth a lot one day." I didn't buy it. I dunno about the 1200 part, but I saw at the gunshow Sunday a pristine satin nickel Combat Commander clearly marked "Commander Model." The rear frame "horns" on the 1911 in the next room are nothing like the ones on either of my Commanders (but are very similar to a 1911A1.) You have to go by the location of the recoil spring abutment and the length of the dust cover, not the rear end of the frame.