Rough Night

BouncerDan · February 8, 2007, 02:20 PM

Hey everybody, I have a situation that I need your input on.

As you either know or can figure from my name I am a bouncer at a night club. Last night I had a confrontation with a Hispanic male. The guy was very muscular and it ended up taking several bouncers to remove him from the club. Obviously he didn't want to be removed. After we gave him several chances to stop and calm down we ended up literally throwing him out/ At that point he stood on the street outside the club yelling about how he was going to F*#% us up and all of that kind of stuff.

Anyway after we got him out he kept tryin to charge the three of us. So we called the police they came and at our request we had a no trespass warrant issued. However after the police had taken the statements from all three bouncers and the club owner on scene he pulled us away from the crowd and told us that he subject had several convictions for aggravated assault and battery. And was known to illegally carry weapons. And that we were at that point in serious danger of him tryin to come back and make good on his threats.

I am a concealed carry licence holder but as you all know you can not carry into a bar. So does anyone have any suggestions on how to better defend ourselves against someone like this. I mean I know the obvious about situational awareness but are there any other pointers out there.

Thanks guy.

Dan

tydephan · February 8, 2007, 02:50 PM

Good question.

Wish I had a good answer for you.

My thoughts are based around the consequences of ignoring the "no carry in bar rule" as opposed to ignoring the iminent threat.

I.e...would you rather be cited/fined/fired for being prepared or beaten/stabbed/killed for not being prepared.

As I said...not a good answer...but my thoughts nevertheless. Are you allowed to carry any type of less-than-lethal weapon? Taser? Spray?

Good luck in Dan vs Big hairy Latino Part II.

AR15FAN · February 8, 2007, 03:04 PM

You play with fire you get burned, carry illegally and you go to jail and lose your RTBA. Easy for a member here to tell you to

Quote:

.e...would you rather be cited/fined/fired for being prepared or beaten/stabbed/killed for not being prepared.

But they are not paying the fine or doing the time. By the way, what difference does it make that it was a Hispanic male? Just curious why you mentioned that.

markj · February 8, 2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

how to better defend ourselves against someone like this.

Many years ago when I did your job

I had a sap, it is a leather "sock" filled with lead birdshot. One hit almost anywhere and they left real fast.

One nite I took a sawed off shotgun off of a guy, he had it under his coat and was going to shoot one person that was in there. He came down from a rival biker bar. anyway, I was alerted to this dangerous situation so I came up on him asked him to open his coat, he said heck no, one hit to his head down he went, yep a sawed off 12 ga. Cops called he was arrested and taken away, gun confiscated. Cops said I had no worries about them arresting me for the sap, I got it from my cousin a cop

Another time I "escourted" a guy out the door, when I turned my back on him he shot me. Ouchie momma that hurt. In the left shoulder blade. The bullet fragged and there is still a piece of it in there. .25 auto. I think he meant to head shoot me and missed lucky me.

buckster · February 8, 2007, 03:15 PM

Invite some really good martial artists to hang around for a while. Texas walker types can be good as a gun in this case. Put a permanent restraining order on him first. Keep aware of him, so he can't track you home. Cameras will help.

tydephan · February 8, 2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Easy for a member here to tell you to

AR,

In my defense...I did admit it was probably a lousy answer.

AR15FAN · February 8, 2007, 04:00 PM

Haha, I stand corrected tydephan, you were just the closest example handy.

tydephan · February 8, 2007, 04:10 PM

Quote:

you were just the closest example handy.

LOL. And deservedly so. No worries!

Capt. Charlie · February 8, 2007, 04:12 PM

Dan, if so permitted, you might want to consider a ballistic vest while you're working.

I don't know the physical layout of your establishment, but would it be possible to install small gun lockers like those used in courthouses at the entrance? I'm thinking a confrontation is most likely to occur outside. A locker would allow you to arm yourself before you leave.

The only thing I'm not sure of is where, near the entrance, you could do so and still be legal as far as carrying in a bar.

Trip20 · February 8, 2007, 04:26 PM

I don't know if this is a good idea logistically. But if there is a need for armed security, and you're unable to carry inside establishments that serve alcohol, then this might be one option:

Speak to the owner about having one (or more) armed staffed stationed outside. You do not go into the bar - you are strictly outside. Other inside staff can take care of getting people to the door, where you can then assist them outside.

This way you can carry. But your primary purpose will be for outside security (i.e., keeping people out and dealing with the drama that goes on out front of busy clubs.

Can the owner carry inside since it's his property? That may be another option.

Can the owner authorize you as his staff to carry inside? Meaning it would be completely separate from carrying inside under authority of a concealed carry permit. Maybe worth looking into.

I dunno -- these are just a few random ideas, and I really don't know the law in your area so take my comments with that in mind. Either way, good luck. That's one job where you'll make enemies. Mix morons with alcohol, add a dose of testosterone, and no matter how rational and fair you treat others, you're bound to make an enemy.

I did it in a country music bar with live bands (and it was more agonizing because I hate country music). Made a lot of good friends, and a few enemies.

G-Cym · February 8, 2007, 06:24 PM

Those are some good answers trip. I would also be willing to bet that the owner of the bar, being an owner of a bar, has a lawyer. You could ask the owner to ask the lawyer about some of this stuff as well.

Lurper · February 8, 2007, 07:22 PM

Check the laws regarding less than lethal weapons like Taser. That may be a viable option. Also armed staff outside and body armor are well advised. I once took a punch in the kidneys and even with a vest on, it almost brought me to my knees. I shudder to think what would've happened had I not been wearing it.

Ant1 · February 8, 2007, 09:18 PM

Has anyone here considered pepper spray?????? It may not be as macho as a firearm, but it is something that can be carried concealed and doesn't take much training to employ. It won't be as effective against a firearm, however since you cannot carry a firearm into a bar then it's not that big of a deal. You also can also use spray with dye to identify people afterwards (think barfight).

Trip20 · February 8, 2007, 09:50 PM

Quote:

It may not be as macho as a firearm...

What's so macho about a firearm? Does having a firearm make you a tough guy?

hodaka · February 8, 2007, 09:54 PM

Shotgun behind the bar? With the owner's consent.

guntotin_fool · February 8, 2007, 11:08 PM

First I would make sure your state law PROHIBITS you as an employee from carrying in the bar. I know that it prohibits patrons, but employees are often covered differently, the same as hiring armed security.

I used to bounce, in the old days, I carried a sap all the time, and used it a lot. At that time it was common use. Then state law changed and it was added to the same category as a slung shot or switchblade. If your state allows a sap, I believe they are the tops in non lethal close defense. However, I have also been threatened by patrons and customers who have really left me worried. Hispanics, without being a racial profiler, seem to be very hung up on the "respect" issue and "Macho" originated in the culture. I have had more trouble with hispanics who felt some degree of disrespect and feel a need to seek some sort of retribution than any other group.

I would suggest you take some appropriate action as far as seeking some way to carry at work, or at least carry to the non public areas of the facility.

BouncerDan · February 9, 2007, 04:18 AM

Hey guys thanks for all the ideas and please keep them coming.

However I can rule out some things.

A) Weapon lockers (according to local police they are illegal)
B) Pepper Spray (owners don't want it employed on a crowded dance floor because some may splash or even miss and hit someone else)
C) Armed Security is also a No Go since according to police they would have to have a special security license
D) Shotgun behind the bar/and employees carrying it is illegal in the state of fl to have a weapon in a business who's primary source of income is alcohol.
E) Since it is illegal to have a weapon inside the owner can't carry.

A vest is a great idea I will start lookin for one immediately

Nortonics · February 9, 2007, 08:17 AM

Quote:

I am a concealed carry licence holder but as you all know you can not carry into a bar.

In your State maybe, but not in mine. I see that as one place any law abiding CCW holder should always carry within - damn shame your State don't allow it...

oldbillthundercheif · February 9, 2007, 11:26 AM

Kevlar for everyone!

AR15FAN · February 9, 2007, 03:48 PM

That is one tough job I could never deal with, you are between a rock and a hard place. But I think getting the vest would be the best protection from a revenge attack, get the best one you can afford, and good luck.

The Real Wyatt · February 9, 2007, 04:22 PM

Not being allowed to carry in a bar is a law that makes no sense at all, especially for the ladies. I wonder what percentage of attacks on women happen late at night whilst walking from the bar to their parked car? My guess is that it'd be significant.

Not that I want drunks wandering around packing heat, mind you. I think the vast majority of permit holders are more responsible than that.

whip1 · February 9, 2007, 11:13 PM

A lot of bars around here hire off duty LEO's. They are in uniform, a radio, and have full arresting power. The bouncers handle the small problems, and the LEO handles the bigger ones.

JDSnead · February 10, 2007, 11:59 AM

How about an ASP, or other expanding baton? Or, since most bouncers need/use flashlights to check ID, etc, get the biggest Maglight you can find.

I have a flashlight I bought many years ago called "the Brute." It is a 6 AA cell flashlight that the tubing walls are over 1/2 inch thick! Makes for a less intimidating visual, but is as strong as you can imagine!

I haven't found this flashlight available for years, and there are no markings on it as to maker. If anyone else has seen such a thing, I'd like to get another.
JS

fixboot · February 10, 2007, 12:22 PM

Maglight, tazer, pepper spray, vest, good size assisted open knife.

MilitaryPower · February 10, 2007, 06:43 PM

I got this from packing.org: 790.06(12) Cannot carry in. . .

any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

I interpret that as you could carry a gun as long as you don't go to the bar. JMO.

February 8, 2007, 02:20 PM	#1
BouncerDan Member Join Date: July 24, 2006 Location: Gainesville Fl Posts: 41	Rough Night Hey everybody, I have a situation that I need your input on. As you either know or can figure from my name I am a bouncer at a night club. Last night I had a confrontation with a Hispanic male. The guy was very muscular and it ended up taking several bouncers to remove him from the club. Obviously he didn't want to be removed. After we gave him several chances to stop and calm down we ended up literally throwing him out/ At that point he stood on the street outside the club yelling about how he was going to F*#% us up and all of that kind of stuff. Anyway after we got him out he kept tryin to charge the three of us. So we called the police they came and at our request we had a no trespass warrant issued. However after the police had taken the statements from all three bouncers and the club owner on scene he pulled us away from the crowd and told us that he subject had several convictions for aggravated assault and battery. And was known to illegally carry weapons. And that we were at that point in serious danger of him tryin to come back and make good on his threats. I am a concealed carry licence holder but as you all know you can not carry into a bar. So does anyone have any suggestions on how to better defend ourselves against someone like this. I mean I know the obvious about situational awareness but are there any other pointers out there. Thanks guy. Dan __________________ This year will go down in history as the first year a civilized nation has full gun control, our streets will be safer, our police more effective. The rest of the world will follow our lead into the future." Adolf Hitler 1939. Sig 229 (.40 cal) Beretta 92 FS Beretta PX4 (.40 cal) Ruger P94TH (.40 cal) Ruger 10/22 AR 15 Mossberg 500 (12GA) (modified by myself from hunting variant to home defence variant) Remington 870 (20 GA)

February 8, 2007, 03:15 PM	#5
buckster Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2006 Posts: 674	Invite martial artists Invite some really good martial artists to hang around for a while. Texas walker types can be good as a gun in this case. Put a permanent restraining order on him first. Keep aware of him, so he can't track you home. Cameras will help.

February 8, 2007, 04:00 PM	#7
AR15FAN Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2006 Posts: 179	Haha, I stand corrected tydephan, you were just the closest example handy. __________________ Use your most powerful weapon first, your brain.....

February 8, 2007, 04:12 PM	#9
Capt. Charlie Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: Steubenville, OH Posts: 4,446	Dan, if so permitted, you might want to consider a ballistic vest while you're working. I don't know the physical layout of your establishment, but would it be possible to install small gun lockers like those used in courthouses at the entrance? I'm thinking a confrontation is most likely to occur outside. A locker would allow you to arm yourself before you leave. The only thing I'm not sure of is where, near the entrance, you could do so and still be legal as far as carrying in a bar. __________________ TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does *your* post make *you?* I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do. --Capt. Charlie

February 8, 2007, 09:18 PM	#13
Ant1 Member Join Date: January 3, 2007 Location: IL Posts: 15	Has anyone here considered pepper spray?????? It may not be as macho as a firearm, but it is something that can be carried concealed and doesn't take much training to employ. It won't be as effective against a firearm, however since you cannot carry a firearm into a bar then it's not that big of a deal. You also can also use spray with dye to identify people afterwards (think barfight). __________________ Keep Working Millions On Welfare Depend On You!!

February 8, 2007, 02:50 PM	#2
tydephan Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 437	Good question. Wish I had a good answer for you. My thoughts are based around the consequences of ignoring the "no carry in bar rule" as opposed to ignoring the iminent threat. I.e...would you rather be cited/fined/fired for being prepared or beaten/stabbed/killed for not being prepared. As I said...not a good answer...but my thoughts nevertheless. Are you allowed to carry any type of less-than-lethal weapon? Taser? Spray? Good luck in Dan vs Big hairy Latino Part II.

February 8, 2007, 04:26 PM	#10
Trip20 Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Posts: 2,181	I don't know if this is a good idea logistically. But if there is a need for armed security, and you're unable to carry inside establishments that serve alcohol, then this might be one option: Speak to the owner about having one (or more) armed staffed stationed outside. You do not go into the bar - you are strictly outside. Other inside staff can take care of getting people to the door, where you can then assist them outside. This way you can carry. But your primary purpose will be for outside security (i.e., keeping people out and dealing with the drama that goes on out front of busy clubs. Can the owner carry inside since it's his property? That may be another option. Can the owner authorize you as his staff to carry inside? Meaning it would be completely separate from carrying inside under authority of a concealed carry permit. Maybe worth looking into. I dunno -- these are just a few random ideas, and I really don't know the law in your area so take my comments with that in mind. Either way, good luck. That's one job where you'll make enemies. Mix morons with alcohol, add a dose of testosterone, and no matter how rational and fair you treat others, you're bound to make an enemy. I did it in a country music bar with live bands (and it was more agonizing because I hate country music). Made a lot of good friends, and a few enemies.

February 8, 2007, 06:24 PM	#11
G-Cym Junior member Join Date: September 27, 2006 Posts: 366	Those are some good answers trip. I would also be willing to bet that the owner of the bar, being an owner of a bar, has a lawyer. You could ask the owner to ask the lawyer about some of this stuff as well.

February 8, 2007, 07:22 PM	#12
Lurper Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Posts: 943	Check the laws regarding less than lethal weapons like Taser. That may be a viable option. Also armed staff outside and body armor are well advised. I once took a punch in the kidneys and even with a vest on, it almost brought me to my knees. I shudder to think what would've happened had I not been wearing it.

February 8, 2007, 09:54 PM	#15
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	Shotgun behind the bar? With the owner's consent.

February 8, 2007, 11:08 PM	#16
guntotin_fool Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2004 Posts: 1,446	First I would make sure your state law PROHIBITS you as an employee from carrying in the bar. I know that it prohibits patrons, but employees are often covered differently, the same as hiring armed security. I used to bounce, in the old days, I carried a sap all the time, and used it a lot. At that time it was common use. Then state law changed and it was added to the same category as a slung shot or switchblade. If your state allows a sap, I believe they are the tops in non lethal close defense. However, I have also been threatened by patrons and customers who have really left me worried. Hispanics, without being a racial profiler, seem to be very hung up on the "respect" issue and "Macho" originated in the culture. I have had more trouble with hispanics who felt some degree of disrespect and feel a need to seek some sort of retribution than any other group. I would suggest you take some appropriate action as far as seeking some way to carry at work, or at least carry to the non public areas of the facility.

February 9, 2007, 04:18 AM	#17
BouncerDan Member Join Date: July 24, 2006 Location: Gainesville Fl Posts: 41	Hey guys thanks for all the ideas and please keep them coming. However I can rule out some things. A) Weapon lockers (according to local police they are illegal) B) Pepper Spray (owners don't want it employed on a crowded dance floor because some may splash or even miss and hit someone else) C) Armed Security is also a No Go since according to police they would have to have a special security license D) Shotgun behind the bar/and employees carrying it is illegal in the state of fl to have a weapon in a business who's primary source of income is alcohol. E) Since it is illegal to have a weapon inside the owner can't carry. A vest is a great idea I will start lookin for one immediately __________________ This year will go down in history as the first year a civilized nation has full gun control, our streets will be safer, our police more effective. The rest of the world will follow our lead into the future." Adolf Hitler 1939. Sig 229 (.40 cal) Beretta 92 FS Beretta PX4 (.40 cal) Ruger P94TH (.40 cal) Ruger 10/22 AR 15 Mossberg 500 (12GA) (modified by myself from hunting variant to home defence variant) Remington 870 (20 GA)

February 9, 2007, 11:26 AM	#19
oldbillthundercheif Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2006 Location: New Orleans Posts: 2,450	Kevlar for everyone!

February 9, 2007, 03:48 PM	#20
AR15FAN Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2006 Posts: 179	That is one tough job I could never deal with, you are between a rock and a hard place. But I think getting the vest would be the best protection from a revenge attack, get the best one you can afford, and good luck. __________________ Use your most powerful weapon first, your brain.....

February 9, 2007, 04:22 PM	#21
The Real Wyatt Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2006 Location: South Central KY Posts: 339	Not being allowed to carry in a bar is a law that makes no sense at all, especially for the ladies. I wonder what percentage of attacks on women happen late at night whilst walking from the bar to their parked car? My guess is that it'd be significant. Not that I want drunks wandering around packing heat, mind you. I think the vast majority of permit holders are more responsible than that.

February 9, 2007, 11:13 PM	#22
whip1 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 383	A lot of bars around here hire off duty LEO's. They are in uniform, a radio, and have full arresting power. The bouncers handle the small problems, and the LEO handles the bigger ones.

February 10, 2007, 11:59 AM	#23
JDSnead Member Join Date: October 8, 2005 Location: Heart of Dixie Posts: 66	ASP Baton? Or Maglight/Brute? How about an ASP, or other expanding baton? Or, since most bouncers need/use flashlights to check ID, etc, get the biggest Maglight you can find. I have a flashlight I bought many years ago called "the Brute." It is a 6 AA cell flashlight that the tubing walls are over 1/2 inch thick! Makes for a less intimidating visual, but is as strong as you can imagine! I haven't found this flashlight available for years, and there are no markings on it as to maker. If anyone else has seen such a thing, I'd like to get another. JS

February 10, 2007, 12:22 PM	#24
fixboot Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2006 Location: Salem oreGUN Posts: 230	Maglight, tazer, pepper spray, vest, good size assisted open knife. __________________ Nothing is more satisfying than a brick of .22, a few empty soda cans and all day to shoot at them..........nothing other than......Hmm...maybe my AK-47 and a bag of apples? DAMMIT who has 7.62x39 on sale right now?

February 10, 2007, 06:43 PM	#25
MilitaryPower Junior Member Join Date: February 10, 2007 Posts: 5	I got this from packing.org: 790.06(12) Cannot carry in. . . any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; I interpret that as you could carry a gun as long as you don't go to the bar. JMO.