What makes you a good shot at the range? - Page 2

Old Grump · March 16, 2011, 01:00 PM

This is the one gun, H&R 922, I do not consider a 200 yard shooter. I bought it new in 69 in San Diego California because as a newly married sailor I didn't have a lot of money to burn. In spite of it being the hardest to shoot because of its awful trigger pull and thin knife edged front sight and my old eyes waiting for cataract surgery it still does this at 25 yards and 100 yards. Not good enough for squirrel but still minute of rabbit...most of the time. Both targets shot standing off hand, (one hand unsupported.)

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As awful as that gun is it literally taught me to shoot handguns. I had given up my pistols and quit the pistol team because I wasn't improving and it was no longer fun. Instead I spent 9 months running around the desert shooting jack rabbits with this gun and I had to learn patience, grip, sight, breath and trigger control if I was going to put a rabbit in the freezer. Things my coach had tried to teach me but I was to bone headed to learn. 9 months later I stopped in to watch a match. they were a member short so they loaned me guns and ammo, signed me up and I not only won my class but advanced a class that day. The difference was I was not expecting to win, there was no pressure on me but all the hard work I had put in playing in the desert just transferred to the target pistol I was shooting.

I guess if I had to define the qualities of a good shooter the number one thing I would have to say is attitude. If it isn't right you will not become as good as you can be.

BigBob3006 · March 17, 2011, 02:47 AM

hook686,

Hook, are you tring to say that I lie like a Persian rug. Well do you know what, I don't blame you a bit. It does sound a little far fetched doesn't it. Well let me give you a little more information. First of all no one is going to learn how to do it except by doing it. There lies the rub. IMHO, tring to learn to shoot at speed by shooting at speed will only result in your picking up so many bad habits you may never learn how to do it correctly. The same is true with the speed draw. It helps if you have someone work with you who knows what to look for. A friend who wants to learn the same things that you do is also a big help. You are going to do everything S L O W L Y. Look at yourself in a upright mirror. Practise with your carry piece MAKE SURE IT IS EMPTY. Start from your normal upright stance. At this point do not wear a jacket. Move your hand to the grip. Now take the pistol from your holster and point it at you in the mirror. Now shut your eyes. and slowly replace the pistol in your holster. did you make it in the first trip? Did the pistol feel the same in your hand when it was holstered as it did when it was pointing at the mirror? When you reach for the pistol grip, do you go straight to it? Do you have a full grip on the pistol grips or do you have to search for it. Do not start to move the pistol from the holster until you have a full firm hold of the grip. From now on you start you point from your elbow. When you have the pistol pointing at your target the pointing line starts from your elbow, straight down the middle of your forearm to your wrist, the wrist should not be bent, straight down your pistol barrel to the target. Elevation is done at the elbow. Minor movements left and right are made from the shoulder. The wrist should never go soft. Large adjustments right and left are done from the feet or waist. After you get some experience you will feel the difference in your body. Remember all this is done slowly. When you reach the point that you can hit a tennis ball five out of six shots then you can slowly increase your speed to half speed.

When you start working with ammo, everything goes back to slow speed. Be sure that you have a bank or other safe target to shoot towards. And slowly increase your speed to half speed. There is never a reason to draw at full speed for practise. 3/4 speed is as fast as there is a need to draw at.

Well there it is, do that over a two year period and you will be proficient.
Don't worry, if the need ever arises that you need the speed, you'll have it.
All that slow movement you went through will train the memory of your muscles.

iMagUdspEllr · March 17, 2011, 06:28 AM

I don't mean to hijack the thread but most of the responses to the OP's question state accuracy and time requirements independent of stating with X gun and Y ammunition.

On average it seems most production pistols are only capable of 3" or maybe 2" groups with the guns favorite ammo (not getting into hand-loaded ammo). So you literally can't do any better than: 3" at 25 yards, 1.8" @ 15 yards, 1.2" @ 10 yards, and .6" @ 5 yards.

Unless you hand-load your ammo and/or you are using a handgun with above average precision you can't do better than that. The ammo and the pistol limit you too much. Revolvers are inherently more accurate than this though... so you might want to use a revolver or maybe a .22 in order to surpass that.

FM12 · March 19, 2011, 11:13 AM

Watch videos of Jerry Miculek. Get better than him and be REALLY Good!!

threegun · March 21, 2011, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Get better than him and be REALLY Good!!

Get better than Jerry with a revolver? Do that and you will be the best.

I had the luxury of watching Jerry shoot in 1995. As he talked to us in the crowd, he was popping a full moon clip in and out of his revolver, while looking at the crowd. He never missed and I lost count after 12 times. He did it many more times than that.

A friend of mine (Cliff Walsh) recently beat Jerry with the revolver. He said that Jerry made some out of the ordinary mistakes that gave him an opening. Guess father time is calling old Jerry.

Dave R · March 21, 2011, 03:48 PM

Quote:

What makes you a good shot at the range?

My stupid answer: consistent sight picture and consistent trigger pull.

Double Naught Spy · March 21, 2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

But I would imagine a lot of handgun shooters spend most of their time at the range poking holes in stationary paper targets.

Quote:

Shooters at a typical local range often seem to shoot like this, but they don't usually present much of a bar to surpass, either.

Funny thing, most ranges will not allow you to shoot moving targets, certainly not in a regular training format. Sure, they might let you shoot them during matches. Say you shoot a 200 (hits needed for a perfect score) target match (though many are with far fewer). What % of your shots will be at moving targets? Think about it. How much of the time do you get to spend shooting those moving targets other than the match. I have been to matches like the rest of you where folks note that the only time they ever get to practice with moving targets is during the match and then it is for a very limited number of shots.

Most ranges don't like you shooting on the move either. http://contour.com/stories/save3

I built my own range for this reason. This is one of my favorite targets. The first (old video) is a 6" target at 12-15 yards. The second vid is a 9" version, 25 yards with frangible ammo, on a longer chain, swinging faster and further. These are great targets that frustrate me (when out of practice) and newer shooters who don't fully comprehend how much tracking and trigger control come into play with moving targets...and that is with the shooter being stationary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9NylptF1G0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6pKm...eature=related

This was the view of a 6" version when I was doing setup for the ISHOT1000 match. At 23-24 yards, most shooters hit the ground much more often than the target. That vid had 11 hits out of something like 33 or 34 shots and that was a pretty good set for me.
http://contour.com/stories/second-range-test

Navy joe · March 21, 2011, 04:59 PM

Compete. Best thing that ever happened to me was to not be born with the need to tell everyone how great I am. If you watch long enough, you may conclude I'm not bad.

Another good thing to happen to me was to get into competition where it was not unusual to have about 5 GM at the match, several of them past world champions. Throw in a large chunk of really good Master class shooter and you learn what good looks like real fast. And you learn... The USPSA classifying system said I was a 65-70% shooter. I have shot big matches on the same day as world champions, same division and my score was 70% of theirs, so I think the classifying system is valid.

The better you get, the less you will care what someone else is doing at the range until you see real talent. My only range claim to fame was that I was about their only exception to their no rapid fire policy. They'd get on the mike and start to yell until they figured out it was me. I usually did rapid fire stuff when the range emptied, holster work when the boss wasn't there. When the place filled up with Gangbangers, I just shot slow, boring tight 25yd groups with my Glock, that was more black magic to them than any speed shooting would be.

Japle · March 21, 2011, 06:48 PM

Here's Jerry at last year's Nationals shooting the Pendulum stage in 2.51 sec.

NYC Drew · March 22, 2011, 07:02 AM

Quote:

I don't mean to hijack the thread but most of the responses to the OP's question state accuracy and time requirements independent of stating with X gun and Y ammunition.

On average it seems most production pistols are only capable of 3" or maybe 2" groups with the guns favorite ammo (not getting into hand-loaded ammo). So you literally can't do any better than: 3" at 25 yards, 1.8" @ 15 yards, 1.2" @ 10 yards, and .6" @ 5 yards.

Glock 17, factory configuration, shooting Ultramax factory reloads, 5rds at 50ft, unsupported:

Glock 26, shooting Remington/UMC, 5rds @ 45ft, unsupported.

'Drew

March 16, 2011, 01:00 PM	#26
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	This is the one gun, H&R 922, I do not consider a 200 yard shooter. I bought it new in 69 in San Diego California because as a newly married sailor I didn't have a lot of money to burn. In spite of it being the hardest to shoot because of its awful trigger pull and thin knife edged front sight and my old eyes waiting for cataract surgery it still does this at 25 yards and 100 yards. Not good enough for squirrel but still minute of rabbit...most of the time. Both targets shot standing off hand, (one hand unsupported.) [IMG] http://[/IMG] As awful as that gun is it literally taught me to shoot handguns. I had given up my pistols and quit the pistol team because I wasn't improving and it was no longer fun. Instead I spent 9 months running around the desert shooting jack rabbits with this gun and I had to learn patience, grip, sight, breath and trigger control if I was going to put a rabbit in the freezer. Things my coach had tried to teach me but I was to bone headed to learn. 9 months later I stopped in to watch a match. they were a member short so they loaned me guns and ammo, signed me up and I not only won my class but advanced a class that day. The difference was I was not expecting to win, there was no pressure on me but all the hard work I had put in playing in the desert just transferred to the target pistol I was shooting. I guess if I had to define the qualities of a good shooter the number one thing I would have to say is attitude. If it isn't right you will not become as good as you can be. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster-- Last edited by Old Grump; March 16, 2011 at 01:08 PM.

March 17, 2011, 02:47 AM	#27
BigBob3006 Member Join Date: February 19, 2011 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 80	hook686, Hook, are you tring to say that I lie like a Persian rug. Well do you know what, I don't blame you a bit. It does sound a little far fetched doesn't it. Well let me give you a little more information. First of all no one is going to learn how to do it except by doing it. There lies the rub. IMHO, tring to learn to shoot at speed by shooting at speed will only result in your picking up so many bad habits you may never learn how to do it correctly. The same is true with the speed draw. It helps if you have someone work with you who knows what to look for. A friend who wants to learn the same things that you do is also a big help. You are going to do everything S L O W L Y. Look at yourself in a upright mirror. Practise with your carry piece MAKE SURE IT IS EMPTY. Start from your normal upright stance. At this point do not wear a jacket. Move your hand to the grip. Now take the pistol from your holster and point it at you in the mirror. Now shut your eyes. and slowly replace the pistol in your holster. did you make it in the first trip? Did the pistol feel the same in your hand when it was holstered as it did when it was pointing at the mirror? When you reach for the pistol grip, do you go straight to it? Do you have a full grip on the pistol grips or do you have to search for it. Do not start to move the pistol from the holster until you have a full firm hold of the grip. From now on you start you point from your elbow. When you have the pistol pointing at your target the pointing line starts from your elbow, straight down the middle of your forearm to your wrist, the wrist should not be bent, straight down your pistol barrel to the target. Elevation is done at the elbow. Minor movements left and right are made from the shoulder. The wrist should never go soft. Large adjustments right and left are done from the feet or waist. After you get some experience you will feel the difference in your body. Remember all this is done slowly. When you reach the point that you can hit a tennis ball five out of six shots then you can slowly increase your speed to half speed. When you start working with ammo, everything goes back to slow speed. Be sure that you have a bank or other safe target to shoot towards. And slowly increase your speed to half speed. There is never a reason to draw at full speed for practise. 3/4 speed is as fast as there is a need to draw at. Well there it is, do that over a two year period and you will be proficient. Don't worry, if the need ever arises that you need the speed, you'll have it. All that slow movement you went through will train the memory of your muscles. __________________ Have a nice day. Good luck and God bless. Bob

March 17, 2011, 06:28 AM	#28
iMagUdspEllr Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2009 Posts: 477	I don't mean to hijack the thread but most of the responses to the OP's question state accuracy and time requirements independent of stating with X gun and Y ammunition. On average it seems most production pistols are only capable of 3" or maybe 2" groups with the guns favorite ammo (not getting into hand-loaded ammo). So you literally can't do any better than: 3" at 25 yards, 1.8" @ 15 yards, 1.2" @ 10 yards, and .6" @ 5 yards. Unless you hand-load your ammo and/or you are using a handgun with above average precision you can't do better than that. The ammo and the pistol limit you too much. Revolvers are inherently more accurate than this though... so you might want to use a revolver or maybe a .22 in order to surpass that. __________________ Rifles: Custom AR-15, Tavor, Arsenal SGL 31-68 Handguns: Colt Python, XD(M) 4.5" .40, Glock 19, M&P 9mm, Walther PPQ 9mm, FN FNS-9, HK P30S 9mm, Walther PPS 9mm, Browning Buck Mark

March 21, 2011, 04:59 PM	#33
Navy joe Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2001 Location: VA, USA Posts: 1,804	Compete. Best thing that ever happened to me was to not be born with the need to tell everyone how great I am. If you watch long enough, you may conclude I'm not bad. Another good thing to happen to me was to get into competition where it was not unusual to have about 5 GM at the match, several of them past world champions. Throw in a large chunk of really good Master class shooter and you learn what good looks like real fast. And you learn... The USPSA classifying system said I was a 65-70% shooter. I have shot big matches on the same day as world champions, same division and my score was 70% of theirs, so I think the classifying system is valid. The better you get, the less you will care what someone else is doing at the range until you see real talent. My only range claim to fame was that I was about their only exception to their no rapid fire policy. They'd get on the mike and start to yell until they figured out it was me. I usually did rapid fire stuff when the range emptied, holster work when the boss wasn't there. When the place filled up with Gangbangers, I just shot slow, boring tight 25yd groups with my Glock, that was more black magic to them than any speed shooting would be. __________________ FY47012

March 19, 2011, 11:13 AM	#29
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Watch videos of Jerry Miculek. Get better than him and be REALLY Good!!

March 21, 2011, 06:48 PM	#34
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	Here's Jerry at last year's Nationals shooting the Pendulum stage in 2.51 sec.