H&R 4mm revolver

[karl J]

I recently purchased a H&R revolver very similar to a Model 676. However it is in 4mm RANDZ caliber. It came with 2 tin containers of 4mm rimfire cartridges.
The gun is in excellent condition and after inspection seems to have never been fired.
I cannot find any information on this revolver anywhere. I've attached two pictures. The barrel markings are very interesting and I only found one, an F inside a pentagon which is a German mark for a pellet gun or firearm with restricted muzzle energy.
I would appreciate any feed back on this gun and if anyone knows the origin of the other cartouche on the barrel a square with the letters TPB and 651.

Thanka, Karl...

[Smoke & Recoil]

CO 2 pellet pistol...unscrew the lanyard ring.

[karl J]

Not Co2. Its rimfire.

[Bill DeShivs]

Likely a German conversion to 4mm.

[karl J]

Heres the box end label.

[Bob Wright]

Interesting. Seems the Germans were fond of the 4mm caliber. From what I've read, indoor shooting, parlor pistols and rifles, were sort of popular Sunday afternoon events. There was a 4 mm cartridge used by the German Army for sub caliber inserts in the Luger pistol.

Bob Wright

[44 AMP]

Most likely made for "parlor shooting".

IF it was a DA gun (often a breaktop) I'd say it was probably meant to be a dog pistol, like the 5mm Velo Dog. These were small caliber guns intended to be carried by cyclists to defend themselves from dog attacks.

Since it is a larger SA revolver, it was probably meant for target shooting / plinking.

My guess would be American made gun made for the European (primarily German) market before WW I.

[Pumpkin]

Looks very nice, finished better than most H&R firearms.
The box looks of pretty recent (70’s-80’s) vintage. I would think the information listed on the box would be hand written if indeed it is very old.

[44 AMP]

Taking another look, it doesn't seem to be pre WWI vintage, especially the box, so it could possible be something post WWII, it could be well preserved 50s through 70s, I really have no idea for sure.

It might be possible to rough date the era by the style of box, some collector out there probably knows, hell, there might even be a book or two on the subject.

Very clearly not made for the US market, it may never have left the US, or its not impossible it went to Germany, and later found its way back. That might account for some of the markings on it.

I don't know how the Germans handle it, but US guns that have gone to England and returned have British proof marks on them, its required before they can be exported, so I understand.

It is a rather interesting and very rare piece (at least in the US), any chance the seller you got it from has some backstory for it??

And, have you asked H&R about it??

[karl J]

Thanks for all the input so far. Just some clarification. As stated in my post 1 this gun is very similar to the H&R model 676 DOUBLE action. Its serial number is HL0003XX. Accordinf to info I have found so far HL prefix means H=H&R & L= 1997. I" searched for catalogs and manuals for this model "ARMY" and found nothing. And since H&R/NEF is out of business there's no company to submit inquiries. Finally, the previous owner was of no help as he had some unsubstantiated "story" that there were only 500 of these made. I didnt care too much about that though because he only wanted 400 dollars for the gun, and it piqued my interest so I had to have it because I sensed its rarity and never heard of the caliber.

[Pumpkin]

https://www.sellierbellot.us/product...re-ammunition/
They show to be making ammo for your pistol.
What the availability is I can't say. Ammoseek doesn't show any, but they do list it.

[Pumpkin]

44 AMP,
"IF it was a DA gun (often a breaktop) I'd say it was probably meant to be a dog pistol, like the 5mm Velo Dog. These were small caliber guns intended to be carried by cyclists to defend themselves from dog attacks."
Always wondered what Velo Dog meant

[karl J]

More pics

[Mike Irwin]

If the box is correct for that gun, it was manufactured sometime after 1991 and before 2015, when H&R 1871 ceased production.

That the gun is stamped Gardner, MA (Massachusetts) also points to 1991-2015 production.

[micromontenegro]

Now that's something you don't get to see everyday-

[stuckinthe60s]

now thats something id like to have.
wonder if they still make ammo for it?
hmmm. maybe if i pm him my trade list.....

[44caliberkid]

The ammo looks like a BB cap, a .177 caliber BB on top of a rimfire case. Big possibility that the charge is just the primer but might be a tiny amount of powder too. American manufacturers used to make them for .22’s. An indoor shooting proposition for sure.

[stuckinthe60s]

they were also used for bird collectors for bird study back at the turn of the other century. it didnt blow the feathers off.
they also used needle guns where the needle was muzzle loaded and then shot by a 4mm cartridge loaded from the breech.

[44 AMP]

Always wondered what Velo Dog meant

If I remember correctly, it was Velo from Velocipede (early bicycles) and Dog for its intended use.

[karl J]

So I guess no one has any input on the barrel roll marks. This must be a scarce gun.

[ds-10-speed]

I had never heard about the caliber until Karl posted it. I looked it up and found this video, apparently they still make guns to shoot that round.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mb1-KOZYyk

[micromontenegro]

So I guess no one has any input on the barrel roll marks. This must be a scarce gun.

I didn't catch your question. Your answer is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physik..._Bundesanstalt

"Weapons which may be carried with the Minor Firearms Certificate, i.e. weapons for shooting blanks or irritants and weapons used as signaling devices, require a PTB test mark for their approval. Occasionally, these weapons are also jointly referred to as "PTB weapons" and bear the PTA or PTB proof mark F (see also: Act on the Proof Testing of Arms and Ammunition)".

Edited to add: Here is a list of the gunmakers approved by the PTB. As you can see, 651 means a H&R imported to Germany by Erma

http://www.muzzle.de/Zubehor/PTB-Liste/ptb-liste.html

[karl J]

micromontenegro, thank you, I believe you have solved part of the puzzle. According to the list it appears that H&R produced another model, Sherrif, and I would surmise ERMA may have been the importer??? Who Knows. Now if only I could find a manual and or H&R literature for this gun that would be fantastic.
And, I'm going to start hunting for the Sherrif model.

[karl J]

Found a Sherrif's model for sale in Germany.

https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=19468721