223 for deer? Im a believer

er775 · November 19, 2012, 07:40 AM

my son and I were walking to our treestands saturday afternoon and kicked up a deer and he took two shots and missed,,of course I gave him crap

after we looked for signs and made sure it was a clean miss we continued on to our stands, he told me he had only ONE round left in his rifle and forgot to grab some extra rounds,so when we got to the stand I offered him my rifle since I also was packing my 44 mag, I told him its a 223 and shot placemet was very important, I told him heart shot was preferred but in the neck under the ear would work too,,,I had loaded up some hornady 55 grn z max with cfe223 powder,,,he had a deer come in and put the bullet right behind the left shouder,,,HOLY SMOKES WHAT A HOLE IT MADE

and liquified the heart!
I have to admit I was a bit skeptical about using 223 for deer and I know this isnt the normal forum for this topic but there was someone a few weeks back asking about what loads/ bullets to reload for deer sized game and after this experience I wanted to share the info with you guys,,,,I love that z max !

jwrowland77 · November 19, 2012, 08:50 AM

Awesome. I load a 60gr Nosler Partition for my daughters .223 over 24 gr of H4895. She's had several shots this year but has clean missed every one. She's 8 and this is her first year at deer hunting. I think she's closing her eyes when she shoots and its causing her to miss. I hope my princess will get one this year.

LarryFlew · November 19, 2012, 09:01 AM

I know several hunters here that use .223 although most go a bit heavier than the 55 grain they do enough damage to be a decent round for deer.

Saskhunter · November 19, 2012, 10:29 AM

And I'm not a "believer". The fact that people report something worked is no reason to believe that it's a good idea. I think there are many reasons to not use a .223 for deer - the main one being that there are so many better choices.

If I tried, I bet I could shingle a roof with a tack hammer. That doesn't make me think it's smart to do so.

nate45 · November 19, 2012, 10:37 AM

.24 caliber rifles like the .243 Win/6 mm Rem are consider the minimum for deer. Those that use the .22-250 or .223 for deer usually use a heavier bullet such as the 60 grain Nosler, 70 grain Speer, etc and limit their shooting distance to a 150 yards, or so. I believe the new TBBC 55 grain is structured for deer though.

You see the problem is that most 55 grain and lighter .223 projectiles are structured for varmints. So on deer there is a good possibility that they might not penetrate sufficiently. Then the deer might run far away and suffer with a horrible wound.

salvadore · November 19, 2012, 11:04 AM

I've killed 5 deer all together, 3 with my 223 reloads, 1 with a .38 Spec. and 1 with a .357. I quit hunting big game when I realized it was very little shooting and a whole lot of work.

jmortimer · November 19, 2012, 11:40 AM

"60gr Nosler Partition"
+1 to that

dahermit · November 19, 2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:

And I'm not a "believer". The fact that people report something worked is no reason to believe that it's a good idea. I think there are many reasons to not use a .223 for deer - the main one being that there are so many better choices.

And, the more meat is wasted, the better that cartridge is for deer hunting. Why use a precise shot to the heart/lung area with a .223, when you can blow out both shoulders and blood-shot the rest of the meat with a 30-06? Besides, it is not "manly" to use anything less than a 7MM Magnum on deer.

jimbob86 · November 19, 2012, 11:58 AM

Quote:

I had loaded up some hornady 55 grn z max

So you took a varmit caliber and loaded a varmit bullet for it.....

Saskhunter · November 19, 2012, 01:20 PM

Quote:

And, the more meat is wasted, the better that cartridge is for deer hunting. Why use a precise shot to the heart/lung area with a .223, when you can blow out both shoulders and blood-shot the rest of the meat with a 30-06? Besides, it is not "manly" to use anything less than a 7MM Magnum on deer.

Just absurd.

To suggest excessive meat damage is inevitable with anything larger than a .223 is just ridiculous and indicates a serious lack of experience. To suggest there is nothing in between a .223 and a 7mm Mag. that might be a better deer hunting tool is deliberate ignorance. I can only assume your "manly" ad hominem is a subconscious admission of your own insecurities. How else did it get into the discussion?

If you actually believe the .223 is the best there is for a deer cartridge, you are certainly a "true believer", and true believers are almost always blind to the truth. Just absurd.

arch308 · November 19, 2012, 02:03 PM

+1 Saskhunter.
He's probably recoil shy.
Just a side note: IMO 8 yrs old is too young, another wounded deer waiting to happen.

jwrowland77 · November 19, 2012, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arch308

+1 Saskhunter.
He's probably recoil shy.
Just a side note: IMO 8 yrs old is too young, another wounded deer waiting to happen.

It depends on how much time you spend with that 8yo training and teaching. As far as my 8yo daughter, I took her to the range every other weekend from February through end of October. Each time she would send a minimum of 50 .223 rounds and 200 .22lr round down range.

ripnbst · November 19, 2012, 02:17 PM

I read a thread on my local forum this morning that their .223 Nosler ballistic tips didn't do anything spectacular. I'd probably use other bullets before Nosler Ballistic Tip in .223. Theirs were small hole in, small hole out. One didn't even move after being shot. Stood there for a moment then started to walk away.

jwrowland77 · November 19, 2012, 02:21 PM

Yeah I wouldn't ever use a ballistic tip...partition though is a bit different.

SL1 · November 19, 2012, 02:42 PM

arch308 wrote:

"Just a side note: IMO 8 yrs old is too young, another wounded deer waiting to happen."

and jwroland77 responded:

Quote:

"She's had several shots this year but has clean missed every one. She's 8 and this is her first year at deer hunting. I think she's closing her eyes when she shoots and its causing her to miss. I hope my princess will get one this year. "

I have to side with Arch on this one. The fact that she completely missed a target the size of a deer several times seems to make the probability pretty high that her first hit is not going to be in the part of that target that is as small as its heart. That is like expecting somebody who can't get a bullet on the paper at the range to suddenly make the first hole in the paper go into the bullseye when they start to improve.

There could be a lot of reasons for her misses on the deer. Excitement, different shooting position, different type of aiming point, etc., etc. can account for differences between range and woods.

But, I think it is also worth considering that maybe she does not WANT to hit the deer. Maybe she thinks that she will only wound it if she hits it and doesn't want to do that. Perhaps she really just does not feel right killing a living thing.

No matter how much YOU want your daughter to shoot a deer, I think you really need to think first about what SHE really wants. I don't know her or you, but I think it is most probable that what she really wants most is your approval. And, you can give that to her without having her shoot a deer.

At this point, I think that a bad outcome is much more probable than a good outcome, in that your daughter's most likely first hit on a deer is unlikely to be a clean kill. So, please think about how she (and you) will feel when her first hit results in a wounded but lost or long-suffering animal. That could turn her off with respect to hunting for the rest of her life. And, it could negatively affect how she looks at you, or at least your hunting, for the rest of your life.

Like good hunting, good parenting requires patience as well as skill.

SL1

jwrowland77 · November 19, 2012, 02:49 PM

Oh I know that. The only reason I take her, is because SHE wants to go because SHE tells me that SHE wants to shoot a deer.

How many of us had a bad shot when we first went deer hunting? I would say a majority of us...due to excitement and adrenaline. Now imagine that on a 8yo...we all had to start somewhere, correct?

I always ask her if she wants to go or not because I don't want to force her to go if she doesn't....I ask her this every time I wake her up and every night before the next morning...if she said she didn't want to go, I would let her go back to sleep and I would simply go without her...I think I'm being a great parent because I am allowing her the choice to go if she wants...

jwrowland77 · November 19, 2012, 03:01 PM

Let me add something else as well...every time we went to the range, she would hit the target in the designated area that I would draw on the target. I did this to ensure that she could hit it consistently to try my hardest to make sure when she went out there, that she would not just wound a deer...that is one of my biggest pet peeves. The weekend before I took her, she had to place 5 of 5 shots in the kill zone on the target we had in order for me to take her, which she did. This is the reason she is hunting. Had she not, I would have held her back another until she was ready.

She proved to me at the range that she is a good enough to hit where she is aiming. Now why this didn't transfer to actual hunting is a mystery to me that I am trying to figure out. You know as well as I do, it's different shooting at a love target than a simple piece of paper.

Like I said, I believe she is closing her eyes or not getting a full picture in her scope. I don't know. The only way to get experience though is for her to do it!

JimDandy · November 19, 2012, 03:02 PM

It's your kid, and your call, you know your kid. Besides, everyone skipped over the change in poster here... the OP took his 8 year old son, who missed twice in a row... his daughter missed several shots on several opportunities. If she's nailing the target at the range, it's probably one of a couple things.. maybe buck fever like some think, maybe she doesn't want to harvest a deer, but loved the Daddy time at the range... Or maybe now that it's "for real" she is closing her eyes from the recoil and it's in her head. It's his kid, he's the one who will know best. Two of those three will only be solved by being out there, and one doesn't need to be solved as long as she's picking a good backstop for her misses.

jwrowland77 · November 19, 2012, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimDandy

It's your kid, and your call, you know your kid. Besides, everyone skipped over the change in poster here... the OP took his 8 year old son, who missed twice in a row... his daughter missed several shots on several opportunities. If she's nailing the target at the range, it's probably one of a couple things.. maybe buck fever like some think, maybe she doesn't want to harvest a deer, but loved the Daddy time at the range... Or maybe now that it's "for real" she is closing her eyes from the recoil and it's in her head. It's his kid, he's the one who will know best. Two of those three will only be solved by being out there, and one doesn't need to be solved as long as she's picking a good backstop for her misses.

Thank you Jim.

Sorry OP for posting so much on your thread. I think it's awesome your son was able to harvest a deer with his .223.

snuffy · November 19, 2012, 03:43 PM

.223 for deer sized animals are a controversial subject. The reason is just what the OP just told us--he used a thin skinned VARMINT bullet to shoot a deer! He GOT AWAY WITH IT plain and simple! If that explosive bullet had hit a rib, or shoulder blade. it would have made a horrible wound on the surface! It would NOT have penetrated to the vitals.

Proper bullet selection doesn't enter the mind of most hunters. Some even think the number of the box means the amount of powder! the 220 grainers are more powerful that the 180's, the 220's have 220 grains of powder!

I ran some tests on various heavy-for-caliber bullets in my bushy 1-9 AR. 3 bullets showed the most promise. 1. the Nosler 60 g. partition, 2. the 62 Barnes X bullet. Third was the winchester 60 grain power point. They were run through a test medium called the bullet test tube. It's a soft wax type of homogenous medium that is close to dense muscle tissue. I couldn't get the 65 sierra game king at that time, I have some now that I'll test next summer. One serious failure was the Speer 70 grain semi pointed. It's a heavy VARMINT bullet, blew up and only penetrated 6 inches.

I would NOT feel under-gunned loaded with the Barnes X. I would still wait for a good broadside shot, not try a Texas heart shot. I would go for a shoulder if that's the ONLY shot I could get.

ripnbst · November 19, 2012, 03:44 PM

I read a thread on my local forum this morning that their .223 Nosler ballistic tips didn't do anything spectacular. I'd probably use other bullets before Nosler Ballistic Tip in .223. Theirs were small hole in, small hole out. One didn't even move after being shot. Stood there for a moment then started to walk away.

JimDandy · November 19, 2012, 04:21 PM

Yeah, I can't say I'd use .223 for deer. I can't say I wouldn't either. I suspect that some would be effective. But I don't know for sure, and thus wouldn't use it until I did, and it was legal in my area.

CS86 · November 19, 2012, 04:26 PM

about 4 years ago I shot a deer with a 60gr V-max in a 22-250. It was the only gun I had and I used the balistic for a hopeful better kill. Let me say it left a Very Large exit hole. The next year i decided I used a .223 60gr hollow point, which just made the deer lay down and die. Both cases I didn't like the end result. I was hoping to use a .308 this year but didn't have the money so I'll have to try it next year. .308 might be a bit overkill, but if I have to take a distant shot I want to knock something down and make sure it doesn't have to suffer. I probably need to work on my placement better and shoot a bit more before going out for the hunt.

Just my experience. Thought I would share.

arch308 · November 19, 2012, 04:49 PM

It's just my opinion but I don't think the .223 is enough gun. I know it will kill a deer and have read accounts where the deer just dropped dead, etc.......
I just feel better with more gun. Deer don't always give you a good rib to rib shot. If that "buck of a lifetime" shows up and only gives me a quartering shot I want a round that will give me a complete pass through, even at long range.
Some will say it's overkill but I like a good .308/30-06. Got a good 9-pointer Sunday @ 150 yds. He dropped dead right there with a clean heart shot. It's possible a .223 would have been enough but I just felt better with my 06.
If you want to use a .223 go ahead as long as it's legal. Just don't start complaining when you can't find what you shot. IMO it will happen eventually with a .223.

jwrowland77 · November 19, 2012, 05:21 PM

It's what keeps our sport of hunting going is bringing the youth of today into it.

Something to think about.

November 19, 2012, 07:40 AM	#1
er775 Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2011 Posts: 129	223 for deer? Im a believer my son and I were walking to our treestands saturday afternoon and kicked up a deer and he took two shots and missed,,of course I gave him crap after we looked for signs and made sure it was a clean miss we continued on to our stands, he told me he had only ONE round left in his rifle and forgot to grab some extra rounds,so when we got to the stand I offered him my rifle since I also was packing my 44 mag, I told him its a 223 and shot placemet was very important, I told him heart shot was preferred but in the neck under the ear would work too,,,I had loaded up some hornady 55 grn z max with cfe223 powder,,,he had a deer come in and put the bullet right behind the left shouder,,,HOLY SMOKES WHAT A HOLE IT MADE and liquified the heart! I have to admit I was a bit skeptical about using 223 for deer and I know this isnt the normal forum for this topic but there was someone a few weeks back asking about what loads/ bullets to reload for deer sized game and after this experience I wanted to share the info with you guys,,,,I love that z max !

November 19, 2012, 10:37 AM	#5
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	.24 caliber rifles like the .243 Win/6 mm Rem are consider the minimum for deer. Those that use the .22-250 or .223 for deer usually use a heavier bullet such as the 60 grain Nosler, 70 grain Speer, etc and limit their shooting distance to a 150 yards, or so. I believe the new TBBC 55 grain is structured for deer though. You see the problem is that most 55 grain and lighter .223 projectiles are structured for varmints. So on deer there is a good possibility that they might not penetrate sufficiently. Then the deer might run far away and suffer with a horrible wound. __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

November 19, 2012, 03:43 PM	#20
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	.223 for deer sized animals are a controversial subject. The reason is just what the OP just told us--he used a thin skinned VARMINT bullet to shoot a deer! He GOT AWAY WITH IT plain and simple! If that explosive bullet had hit a rib, or shoulder blade. it would have made a horrible wound on the surface! It would NOT have penetrated to the vitals. Proper bullet selection doesn't enter the mind of most hunters. Some even think the number of the box means the amount of powder! the 220 grainers are more powerful that the 180's, the 220's have 220 grains of powder! I ran some tests on various heavy-for-caliber bullets in my bushy 1-9 AR. 3 bullets showed the most promise. 1. the Nosler 60 g. partition, 2. the 62 Barnes X bullet. Third was the winchester 60 grain power point. They were run through a test medium called the bullet test tube. It's a soft wax type of homogenous medium that is close to dense muscle tissue. I couldn't get the 65 sierra game king at that time, I have some now that I'll test next summer. One serious failure was the Speer 70 grain semi pointed. It's a heavy VARMINT bullet, blew up and only penetrated 6 inches. I would NOT feel under-gunned loaded with the Barnes X. I would still wait for a good broadside shot, not try a Texas heart shot. I would go for a shoulder if that's the ONLY shot I could get. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

November 19, 2012, 08:50 AM	#2
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	Awesome. I load a 60gr Nosler Partition for my daughters .223 over 24 gr of H4895. She's had several shots this year but has clean missed every one. She's 8 and this is her first year at deer hunting. I think she's closing her eyes when she shoots and its causing her to miss. I hope my princess will get one this year.

November 19, 2012, 09:01 AM	#3
LarryFlew Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2009 Location: Minnesota CZ fan Posts: 902	I know several hunters here that use .223 although most go a bit heavier than the 55 grain they do enough damage to be a decent round for deer.

November 19, 2012, 10:29 AM	#4
Saskhunter Member Join Date: October 16, 2012 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 39	And I'm not a "believer". The fact that people report something worked is no reason to believe that it's a good idea. I think there are many reasons to not use a .223 for deer - the main one being that there are so many better choices. If I tried, I bet I could shingle a roof with a tack hammer. That doesn't make me think it's smart to do so.

November 19, 2012, 11:04 AM	#6
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	I've killed 5 deer all together, 3 with my 223 reloads, 1 with a .38 Spec. and 1 with a .357. I quit hunting big game when I realized it was very little shooting and a whole lot of work.

November 19, 2012, 11:40 AM	#7
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	"60gr Nosler Partition" +1 to that

November 19, 2012, 02:03 PM	#11
arch308 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2011 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 876	+1 Saskhunter. He's probably recoil shy. Just a side note: IMO 8 yrs old is too young, another wounded deer waiting to happen.

November 19, 2012, 02:17 PM	#13
ripnbst Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Spring, TX Posts: 1,552	I read a thread on my local forum this morning that their .223 Nosler ballistic tips didn't do anything spectacular. I'd probably use other bullets before Nosler Ballistic Tip in .223. Theirs were small hole in, small hole out. One didn't even move after being shot. Stood there for a moment then started to walk away.

November 19, 2012, 02:21 PM	#14
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	Yeah I wouldn't ever use a ballistic tip...partition though is a bit different.

November 19, 2012, 02:49 PM	#16
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	Oh I know that. The only reason I take her, is because SHE wants to go because SHE tells me that SHE wants to shoot a deer. How many of us had a bad shot when we first went deer hunting? I would say a majority of us...due to excitement and adrenaline. Now imagine that on a 8yo...we all had to start somewhere, correct? I always ask her if she wants to go or not because I don't want to force her to go if she doesn't....I ask her this every time I wake her up and every night before the next morning...if she said she didn't want to go, I would let her go back to sleep and I would simply go without her...I think I'm being a great parent because I am allowing her the choice to go if she wants...

November 19, 2012, 03:01 PM	#17
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	Let me add something else as well...every time we went to the range, she would hit the target in the designated area that I would draw on the target. I did this to ensure that she could hit it consistently to try my hardest to make sure when she went out there, that she would not just wound a deer...that is one of my biggest pet peeves. The weekend before I took her, she had to place 5 of 5 shots in the kill zone on the target we had in order for me to take her, which she did. This is the reason she is hunting. Had she not, I would have held her back another until she was ready. She proved to me at the range that she is a good enough to hit where she is aiming. Now why this didn't transfer to actual hunting is a mystery to me that I am trying to figure out. You know as well as I do, it's different shooting at a love target than a simple piece of paper. Like I said, I believe she is closing her eyes or not getting a full picture in her scope. I don't know. The only way to get experience though is for her to do it!

November 19, 2012, 03:02 PM	#18
JimDandy Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2012 Posts: 2,556	It's your kid, and your call, you know your kid. Besides, everyone skipped over the change in poster here... the OP took his 8 year old son, who missed twice in a row... his daughter missed several shots on several opportunities. If she's nailing the target at the range, it's probably one of a couple things.. maybe buck fever like some think, maybe she doesn't want to harvest a deer, but loved the Daddy time at the range... Or maybe now that it's "for real" she is closing her eyes from the recoil and it's in her head. It's his kid, he's the one who will know best. Two of those three will only be solved by being out there, and one doesn't need to be solved as long as she's picking a good backstop for her misses.

November 19, 2012, 03:44 PM	#21
ripnbst Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Spring, TX Posts: 1,552	I read a thread on my local forum this morning that their .223 Nosler ballistic tips didn't do anything spectacular. I'd probably use other bullets before Nosler Ballistic Tip in .223. Theirs were small hole in, small hole out. One didn't even move after being shot. Stood there for a moment then started to walk away.

November 19, 2012, 04:21 PM	#22
JimDandy Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2012 Posts: 2,556	Yeah, I can't say I'd use .223 for deer. I can't say I wouldn't either. I suspect that some would be effective. But I don't know for sure, and thus wouldn't use it until I did, and it was legal in my area.

November 19, 2012, 04:26 PM	#23
CS86 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2012 Location: South Dakota Posts: 224	about 4 years ago I shot a deer with a 60gr V-max in a 22-250. It was the only gun I had and I used the balistic for a hopeful better kill. Let me say it left a Very Large exit hole. The next year i decided I used a .223 60gr hollow point, which just made the deer lay down and die. Both cases I didn't like the end result. I was hoping to use a .308 this year but didn't have the money so I'll have to try it next year. .308 might be a bit overkill, but if I have to take a distant shot I want to knock something down and make sure it doesn't have to suffer. I probably need to work on my placement better and shoot a bit more before going out for the hunt. Just my experience. Thought I would share.

November 19, 2012, 04:49 PM	#24
arch308 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2011 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 876	It's just my opinion but I don't think the .223 is enough gun. I know it will kill a deer and have read accounts where the deer just dropped dead, etc....... I just feel better with more gun. Deer don't always give you a good rib to rib shot. If that "buck of a lifetime" shows up and only gives me a quartering shot I want a round that will give me a complete pass through, even at long range. Some will say it's overkill but I like a good .308/30-06. Got a good 9-pointer Sunday @ 150 yds. He dropped dead right there with a clean heart shot. It's possible a .223 would have been enough but I just felt better with my 06. If you want to use a .223 go ahead as long as it's legal. Just don't start complaining when you can't find what you shot. IMO it will happen eventually with a .223.

November 19, 2012, 05:21 PM	#25
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	It's what keeps our sport of hunting going is bringing the youth of today into it. Something to think about.