loading specs for .35 Winchester

[tnscot60]

Getting an old lever action rifle chambered in .35 Winchester. Of course, no one manufactures that round anymore. I know that I can use 30-40 Krag brass. Does anyone out there have the info that I will need to reload that brass to make the rounds I need? please note that I'm pretty ignorant where reloading is concerned, since I've never done it.
Thanks.

[SL1]

then I think you are getting yourself into an advanced reloading situation.

I don't have any information on the 35 Wnchester. I did find it in QuickLOAD, but it listed some default information that seemed odd (especially the max pressure, which seems to be from a European standard and may be too new to apply to black powder era guns). I would be afraid to just trust it without having some other specifications IN PRINT somewhere to start from.

And, you said an "old" rifle. How old and in what CONDITION are other aspects that need to be considered when you decide how much pressure to allow with your handloads.

Also, before you invest a lot of time and money trying to handload ammo for the gun, you should check-out the bore and make sure that it will shoot well enough to be worth the bother. Many balck-powder guns were either not cleaned well enough or were cleaned in a damaging way so that their bores are either pitted or the rifling is too worn (especially near the muzzle). So they are not just a little inaccurate, they actually send the bullets out with such poor stability that they end up going through the target side-ways at 25 yards when they don't miss it completely. I speak from experience, because I got an old Winchester model 1873 (in .44-40) from a relative a long time ago and had exactly that experience when I first started handloading.

IF you decide to go ahead, I suggest that you spend some time with Google to track-down the specs for that cartridge, including any pressure limits or at least the black powder load (bullet weight and powder charge) and be prepared to check a lot of measurements for the gun and the cases you intend to use. One thing that will be of particular concern is that the internal dimensions of the brass cartridge cases have changed since the 35 Winchester was designed. Those original cases had "baloon heads" and now all of the cases are made with "solid heads" so they have SUBSTANTIALLY smaller internal volume. That is important when considering how to translate any old loading data to use modern components.

SL1

[Jim Watson]

The .35 Winchester is a smokeless cartridge introduced in 1903 for the 1895 box magazine lever action. Seldom seen in anything but that and a few "highwall" single shots.

Brass made from .30-40 Krag will come out .10" short, which might not make much difference. Buffalo Arms sells correct length brass which might be .30-40 drawn out to full length, or something else (.405?) reformed. They also have Bertram (Australian) brass with the correct headstamp.

Cartridges of the World has a few loads but with no source given, I would work up cautiously from well below the listed powder charges.

I'm pretty ignorant where reloading is concerned, since I've never done it.

Learning to reload on an obsolete caliber in an antique rifle constitutes jumping in at the deep end. You will need The ABCs of Handloading, a general reloading manual like Lyman's, and a search for data including CotW and out of date stuff like Phil Sharpe's book.

Or you could just buy some custom loaded ammunition for what a friend calls "ceremonial occasions" with his old and odd guns.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4144.html

[Mike Irwin]

Reloaders Nest has specs and loads for the .35.

You have to join the site and pony up some money to get the info, though.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpa...?CaliberID=249


The only problem I see with it is that the data might not be verified in any way.

And, there's no way to tell just how old some of the data is.

I have some older loading manuals that show loads for the .35, but they're over 40 years old now and the information in them is spotty, at best, with today's powders, even powders of the same type.

[SL1]

Jim and Mike,

Good response. I looked here http://www.chuckhawks.com/win_med_bore_levers.htm and found this;

The Model 1895 rifle was introduced in 1896 and discontinued in 1938. It was a departure from previous Winchester lever action rifles in several ways; the most important being that it was designed from the outset for smokeless powder pressures, not adapted to them as the 1886 had been. It was much stronger than previous Winchester lever action rifles, designed to handle the pressure of high intensity cartridges. It also had a fixed box magazine that allowed it to safely use cartridges with pointed bullets, and the Model 95 was most often seen in small bore calibers like .30-40 Krag, .303 British, and .30-06 Spfd. But it was also chambered for the powerful .35 Winchester and .405 Winchester cartridges, and became famous as a rifle for big and dangerous game. The Model 1895 was brought back as a limited production rifle by Winchester in 2001. See my articles The Lever Action and Big Medicine: The .405 Winchester for additional comments on the M-95.

The .35 Win. was a long, rimmed, big case medium bore cartridge that could give a 200 grain bullet a MV of 2400-2500 fps, a 220 grain bullet a MV of 2300-2400 fps, or a 250 grain bullet a MV of 2200-2300 fps. It was an effective elk and moose cartridge, comparable to the .348 Win. and .358 Win. cartridges that came later.

So, maybe the pressure limit in QuickLOAD was not too far off. But, I would like to know the pressure limit for whatever gun he has and the capacity of any cases that he wants to load before I would venture any advice to him based on QuickLOAD calculations.

Can you help with any of that, especially the pressure limit if he specifies the gun model?

Also,where did you find the info that you have? I have several sources that are more than 40 years old, but found the 35 Winchester in none of mine. And, what I first found on the net seemed to say that the cartridge was first loaded with black powder. (Maybe I confused it with the 33 Winchester, but I don't think so.)

SL1

[CraigC]

Nope, the .35WCF, as well as all the other cartridges the 1895 chambered, was a smokeless cartridge.

Sounds like you have a lovely old rifle. With the resurgence of interest in the old Winchester `95, due primarily to the modern reproductions of these fine rifles, there's been some information in print on the original cartridges like the .35WCF and the mighty .405 in Handloader/Rifle magazines in recent years. Most recently in their Legacy of Leverguns special issue and Rifle #236. Both of which may possibly still be purchased directly from Wolfe publishing. Logging onto LoadData.com, published by Wolfe, I see there is a wealth of loading data on the cartridge. Seven pages, actually. Don't know why I don't see it referenced more often, it is an invaluable resource.

http://www.riflemagazine.com
http://www.loaddata.com

EDIT: COTW 11th edition states that pressure should be kept to 45,000psi. I would 'assume' that cases could be formed from .405 Basic or current Hornady .405WCF brass. Get it while you can, it's done in small batches. COTW also states that cases formed from .30-40Krag will be a tad short but that it shouldn't be a problem as a roll crimp into the cannelure is not necessary. (I roll crimp my .405's anyway)

[SL1]

Craig,

Thanks for the refernce to Rifle #236. I have a copy somewhere, and just didn't realize it covered that cartridge.

SL1

[SL1]

Craig,

Thanks for the edit. QuickLOAD uses a peak pressure limit of 3050 bar, which is equal to 44,236 psi. So, with the proper inputs, I think it can be used to produce reasonable loads for the 35 Winchester.

There is still the question of the condition of the gun and whether it is still good for its original pressure rating.

SL1

[RKG]

Ken Waters ("Pet Loads") had an extensive article in the November, 1990, edition of Handloader magazine.

He rejected using .30-40 Krag brass. ""The .30-40 Krag brass is too short to properly reform unless it is redrawn. . . . [T]he redrawn .30-40 cases felt lighter, and I noted that a given charge of powder didn't come as high in a case as it had in original .35 WCF cases. I weighed them and found they were 17 grains lighter and more capacious due to their thinner walls. Almost half of these redrawn cases failed on either the first or second firing, mostly suffering split bodies or circumferential cracks at neck bases where the new shoulder formed. In several instances, however, primers were literally blown-out leaving badly expanded primer pockets."

Waters also describes an Australian sources of cases, Bertram Bullet Company, but these cases were also problematic for a number of reasons. As far as I can tell, Bertram Bullet Co. is still in business.

[Mike Irwin]

I have a Lyman 43rd edition that lists loading information for the .35.

The Lyman 45th does not, nor does my Speer No. 3.

My Ideal Handbook, No. 26 (right around WW I if I've dated it correctly) lists the .35 as having a 250 gr. bullet at 2,200 FPS. That's average ballistics.

[tnscot60]

Thanks, everyone, for all the input. It's much appreciated.

I did find a source online where I can get a box of 20 rounds custom made for $50, and he also will reload the brass for less.
http://www.aco4u.com/ammo/

The way I figure it, it's not like I'm gonna be burning through round after round, plinking with it, so, when all is said and done, it wont cost that much more, per round, than firing a muzzleloader.

Looking very forward to getting my hands on it.