First shot inaccuracies, or warming up for HD.

Justin · February 7, 2002, 06:28 PM

When you go shooting, are your first few shots usually off by a bit, or are they always dead on?

About 2/3 of the time, when I shoot for the first time in a week, my first few groups aren't all that great.

What are the implications of this for self-defense/home-defense scenarios? Would you be more likely to miss the bg?

Obviously you can't warm up with a few practice shots before you get mugged. Is there a way to minimize or train yourself to be accurate with those first few shots?

LBC · February 7, 2002, 07:03 PM

caliban, I sometimes surprise myself with my snubbie that I can hit center mass at 30 feet from a pocket draw after a few weeks off. My BHP, that's another matter.

When I am at an indoor range I will often run the target back and forth on the hanger while looking down at my feet. Then I don't know if it's close or far away. When I look up it's a surprise. Draw from concealment and see how you do.

Outdoors I will walk around looking down counting brass or following cracks in the cement (always in my lane), then look up, draw from concealment, and fire. Standing sideways helps too. Do some jumping jacks or run in place with your back to the target, then turn and fire (gets the adrenaline moving).

If you have your own target stand you can place it at various angles, change targets throughout your session (paper, barrels, milk jugs, etc.) to change the size, shape, and color of the target.
I have to talk to my club's board of directors about allowing those "tactical ted" 3-D polymer targets at the indoor range. Then you can dress it in a t-shirt, hat and wig. Maybe have a partner change its angle and distance for you before you shoot.

Finally, does your gun have a wicked good front sight (like an Ashley Express) and a good trigger? That and reliability should make your sessions more productive.

Just my .02..... or, in this case, .04.

Jack Carson · February 7, 2002, 08:20 PM

It sounds as if you need a bit more range time. Bill Jordan had a quote in his book, "No Second Place Winner" that I like very much:

"Speed's fine but accuracy is final!"

Only hits count and it is our responsibility to hit when we fire in self defense. The bullet(s) are going to go somewhere and the shooter is the person who determines where!

Also, a handgun (even a hi-cap) has a finite number of rounds and you cannot afford to waste even ONE.

I count every shot I fire that does not strike center of mass as a miss. It makes me slow down and fire effectively.

That's my opinion and the way I look at it...that's all.
Good Luck and Best Regards,
Jack

Justin · February 8, 2002, 12:25 AM

Hmm.
I think that I feel a bit better now.
I shoot competitive, ISSF style bullseye pistol. This is done with a .22 at 50 feet. Usually my first string of shots is slightly high and to the left in the target, usually in the 6 or 7 range.
After I get into the swing of things, the vast majority of my shots land in the 8, 9, or 10 ring.

My experience with more practical shooting applications is a bit less, but once IDPA season starts up again, I'm going to definately keep an eye out for any patterns regarding how I shoot.

I would definately be interested in trying out some of the stuff with the 3d targets, and dressing them, setting them at angles and such. It's my understanding that Louis Awerbuck does this sort of thing in his classes.

LBC-

I really like your idea of trying to include some self-induced confusion as to the distance to the target, or its position and such. As I become more proficient at the practical sides of shooting, and once I find somewhere to practice other than a public range, I should be set to start working on these, outside of the IDPA matches that I am lucky enough to attend.

Jack-

I am in total agreement about more range time. Of course, if I could, I'd hit the range for centerfire practice just as often as rimfire. (At least once a week.)

With regard to speed vs. accuracy, I am in total agreement. In the few IDPA matches that I have shot, I'm usually not too speedy, but try to go more for accuracy. (If I'm not hitting the target accurately, I'm not having fun.)
Besides, the last thing in the world that I want to happen in a self-defense situation would be for me to send a round zinging down the street and through someone's living room.
I also like your idea of only counting COM shots as hits. (I would assume that deliberate head shots would be included as well.)

One last, off topic question for LBC-
What does your name stand for?
You wouldn't happen to live near Lafayette, IN would you?
The reason I ask is that there is an excellent microbrew/tavern nearby called the Lafayette Brewing Company. Everyone around here just calls it LBC.
Is that where you came up with your name, or is it just a weird coincidence?

Thanks for the help, everyone.

DAVID NANCARROW · February 8, 2002, 12:34 AM

If you think your groups aren't exactly pristine at first, just wait until your heart's pounding, your sphincter is locked up tighter than a bank vault, and the world gets really small and intense!

LBC · February 8, 2002, 09:35 AM

At one point I was a big fan of Les Baer Custom. Nice guns, but the more I learn, the more I figure I don't need 2" at 50 yards. I need 8" at 7 feet, and I need it in a hurry. So my S&W 642 is now my constant companion, along with my wallet, watch, and a benchmade AFCK. For long shots I have an M1A; for short messy work I rely on my Mossberg! And for .45 ACP love I have a Colt Series 70 Combat Commander (hmmm.. looks just like my old LBC Concept VII) and a Colt XSE Government Model.

ronin308 · February 8, 2002, 10:09 AM

LBC- That's just what you say in public, it really means Long Beach California. Just like in the Dr. Dre song: "Crusin' along the LBC, lookin' for a Mister Warren G" J/K

Dan

KSFreeman · February 8, 2002, 11:42 AM

Ronin, you mean it doesn't stand for "Lafayette Brewing Company?" Mmmm, Whitetail Wheat.

Caliban, don't worry; rust happens to everyone (except gunshop commandos). Another excuse to practice.

ronin308 · February 8, 2002, 01:27 PM

Caliban- I've been doing lots and lots of dryfiring since my infamous "Ohio State Flinch"

I've found that when I bring my pistol/rifle up and dryfire I'm pretty much dead on now. My smallbore shooting has recovered too because of it. Another thing I do is dryfire after I've shadowboxed. Then you can see where you're at when your heart rate is high.

Dan

LBC · February 9, 2002, 06:07 AM

Hence the 11th Commandment: "Thou shalt always carry at least one reload at all times."

Justin · February 10, 2002, 04:03 PM

Yeah, probably my biggest thing is that I need to just do more dry-fire practice.
I was doing some of this the other day, and really just concentrating on keeping the front site steady.
Then, just to mess with myself, I did 10 pushups.
The result was, well, jittery.

LBC- ok, so I stand corrected, I figured it'd be worth a shot.

Ronin- sheesh, I'm about as in-tune with CA culture as, well, as me.

KSFreeman- mmmm, White Tail Wheat, good stuff, although I'm partial to the Angus Oatmeal Stout, and a basket of fried pickles.

Erick- Wow, that is some friend! I kind of like that idea.

Everyone-yeah, it seems that the best thing is simply more range time. I shoot .22's once a week, but that's more for ISSF competition than defensive situations. I should get to the range and practice more 'practical' pistol shooting more often. <Big Grin> I can't wait for IDPA to start in April! </Big Grin>

Double Naught Spy · February 10, 2002, 11:19 PM

We sometimes do something like Erick mentioned. Our group occasionally does some cold shoot drills. The last time was 5 sets of timed Mozambiques with no warm-up before the drills and each shot marked between sets. Clothing and concealment garments were our normal street attire and rigs. Using an IDPA target, most of the shooters of our group did not put both of the COM shots in the center 8 or 9" circle at 5 yards, 2 or more times out of the 5 sets. With 6 shooters and a total of 30 head shots, however, only three were missed. More over, most of the shooters times were anywhere from 1/2 to just over 1 full second off what they could do when warmed up. The best completed time with all shots in proper zones was 2.35 seconds and the worst was just under 3.5.

After warming up, all of the shooters show a much greater ability to group shots more tightly and to have lower average completion times. This is the best way we have been able to assess what our cold potential is for a defensive situation. This is not to say that this would in any way simulate a real life situation. No doubt in real life, you are not waiting on the buzzer to give you the start command to draw and fire on a stationary target in front of you that you have mentally prepared yourself to shoot on the tone. Real life will involve threat recognition, assessment, and reaching a decision as to what to do and then doing it - all this potentially occurring at a time when you did not expect it to happen and more than likely, the threat will not be stationary in front of you and will likely pose a significant danger to you that a cardboard IDPA target won't pose.

Given the lack of true threat or surprise, we consider these drills to be something of a best case scenario. We would not expect to be able to do any better than what we could do on one of these cold drills if something were to happen in real life. Most likely, we would be extremely fortunate to do as good as our worst individual times with all shots in the correct zones. Cold drills are probably a more accurate relfection of what one's potential is than what someone's best scores are after they have been warming up and shooting for a while prior to testing.

Carbon_15 · February 11, 2002, 12:02 AM

Actualy, my first few shots are generaly the most accurate of the day. I guess I havent gotten tired, shakey and in a rut. Sometimes I notice that after shooting a few hundred rounds at paper targets I have gone into "assembly line mode" due to the repetative nature of loading high cap magazines, droping the slide and rythmicly firing. That is when I am starting to get tired and should have gone home for the day, and am just kinda going through the motions. If I put the guns down, take a step back, smoke a cigarette, chat with the guys, etc, than start shooting again, my groups improve. Also, it never fails that my last shot of the day is awfull. Then I'm annoyed all week about that one last shot that zinged out into left field. Guess thats the shooting gods way of keeping me comming back.

Erik · February 11, 2002, 12:03 PM

If you can keep your rounds on a paper plate out to reasonable self defense distances then you are accurate enough for practical self defense.

Hold a paper plate up to your chest if you don't believe me.

February 7, 2002, 06:28 PM	#1
Justin Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 1,641	First shot inaccuracies, or warming up for HD. When you go shooting, are your first few shots usually off by a bit, or are they always dead on? About 2/3 of the time, when I shoot for the first time in a week, my first few groups aren't all that great. What are the implications of this for self-defense/home-defense scenarios? Would you be more likely to miss the bg? Obviously you can't warm up with a few practice shots before you get mugged. Is there a way to minimize or train yourself to be accurate with those first few shots?

February 7, 2002, 08:20 PM	#3
Jack Carson Senior Member Join Date: July 13, 2001 Location: Central Oklahoma Posts: 275	Keep Practicing, caliban It sounds as if you need a bit more range time. Bill Jordan had a quote in his book, "No Second Place Winner" that I like very much: "Speed's fine but accuracy is final!" Only hits count and it is our responsibility to hit when we fire in self defense. The bullet(s) are going to go somewhere and the shooter is the person who determines where! Also, a handgun (even a hi-cap) has a finite number of rounds and you cannot afford to waste even ONE. I count every shot I fire that does not strike center of mass as a miss. It makes me slow down and fire effectively. That's my opinion and the way I look at it...that's all. Good Luck and Best Regards, Jack __________________ Jack C.

February 8, 2002, 10:09 AM	#7
ronin308 Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Posts: 1,977	LBC- That's just what you say in public, it really means Long Beach California. Just like in the Dr. Dre song: "Crusin' along the LBC, lookin' for a Mister Warren G" J/K Dan __________________ If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert in five years there’d be a shortage of sand. -Milton Friedman

February 8, 2002, 01:27 PM	#9
ronin308 Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Posts: 1,977	Caliban- I've been doing lots and lots of dryfiring since my infamous "Ohio State Flinch" I've found that when I bring my pistol/rifle up and dryfire I'm pretty much dead on now. My smallbore shooting has recovered too because of it. Another thing I do is dryfire after I've shadowboxed. Then you can see where you're at when your heart rate is high. Dan __________________ If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert in five years there’d be a shortage of sand. -Milton Friedman

February 10, 2002, 11:19 PM	#12
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	We sometimes do something like Erick mentioned. Our group occasionally does some cold shoot drills. The last time was 5 sets of timed Mozambiques with no warm-up before the drills and each shot marked between sets. Clothing and concealment garments were our normal street attire and rigs. Using an IDPA target, most of the shooters of our group did not put both of the COM shots in the center 8 or 9" circle at 5 yards, 2 or more times out of the 5 sets. With 6 shooters and a total of 30 head shots, however, only three were missed. More over, most of the shooters times were anywhere from 1/2 to just over 1 full second off what they could do when warmed up. The best completed time with all shots in proper zones was 2.35 seconds and the worst was just under 3.5. After warming up, all of the shooters show a much greater ability to group shots more tightly and to have lower average completion times. This is the best way we have been able to assess what our cold potential is for a defensive situation. This is not to say that this would in any way simulate a real life situation. No doubt in real life, you are not waiting on the buzzer to give you the start command to draw and fire on a stationary target in front of you that you have mentally prepared yourself to shoot on the tone. Real life will involve threat recognition, assessment, and reaching a decision as to what to do and then doing it - all this potentially occurring at a time when you did not expect it to happen and more than likely, the threat will not be stationary in front of you and will likely pose a significant danger to you that a cardboard IDPA target won't pose. Given the lack of true threat or surprise, we consider these drills to be something of a best case scenario. We would not expect to be able to do any better than what we could do on one of these cold drills if something were to happen in real life. Most likely, we would be extremely fortunate to do as good as our worst individual times with all shots in the correct zones. Cold drills are probably a more accurate relfection of what one's potential is than what someone's best scores are after they have been warming up and shooting for a while prior to testing. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

February 7, 2002, 07:03 PM	#2
LBC Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2001 Posts: 385	caliban, I sometimes surprise myself with my snubbie that I can hit center mass at 30 feet from a pocket draw after a few weeks off. My BHP, that's another matter. When I am at an indoor range I will often run the target back and forth on the hanger while looking down at my feet. Then I don't know if it's close or far away. When I look up it's a surprise. Draw from concealment and see how you do. Outdoors I will walk around looking down counting brass or following cracks in the cement (always in my lane), then look up, draw from concealment, and fire. Standing sideways helps too. Do some jumping jacks or run in place with your back to the target, then turn and fire (gets the adrenaline moving). If you have your own target stand you can place it at various angles, change targets throughout your session (paper, barrels, milk jugs, etc.) to change the size, shape, and color of the target. I have to talk to my club's board of directors about allowing those "tactical ted" 3-D polymer targets at the indoor range. Then you can dress it in a t-shirt, hat and wig. Maybe have a partner change its angle and distance for you before you shoot. Finally, does your gun have a wicked good front sight (like an Ashley Express) and a good trigger? That and reliability should make your sessions more productive. Just my .02..... or, in this case, .04.

February 8, 2002, 12:25 AM	#4
Justin Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 1,641	Hmm. I think that I feel a bit better now. I shoot competitive, ISSF style bullseye pistol. This is done with a .22 at 50 feet. Usually my first string of shots is slightly high and to the left in the target, usually in the 6 or 7 range. After I get into the swing of things, the vast majority of my shots land in the 8, 9, or 10 ring. My experience with more practical shooting applications is a bit less, but once IDPA season starts up again, I'm going to definately keep an eye out for any patterns regarding how I shoot. I would definately be interested in trying out some of the stuff with the 3d targets, and dressing them, setting them at angles and such. It's my understanding that Louis Awerbuck does this sort of thing in his classes. LBC- I really like your idea of trying to include some self-induced confusion as to the distance to the target, or its position and such. As I become more proficient at the practical sides of shooting, and once I find somewhere to practice other than a public range, I should be set to start working on these, outside of the IDPA matches that I am lucky enough to attend. Jack- I am in total agreement about more range time. Of course, if I could, I'd hit the range for centerfire practice just as often as rimfire. (At least once a week.) With regard to speed vs. accuracy, I am in total agreement. In the few IDPA matches that I have shot, I'm usually not too speedy, but try to go more for accuracy. (If I'm not hitting the target accurately, I'm not having fun.) Besides, the last thing in the world that I want to happen in a self-defense situation would be for me to send a round zinging down the street and through someone's living room. I also like your idea of only counting COM shots as hits. (I would assume that deliberate head shots would be included as well.) One last, off topic question for LBC- What does your name stand for? You wouldn't happen to live near Lafayette, IN would you? The reason I ask is that there is an excellent microbrew/tavern nearby called the Lafayette Brewing Company. Everyone around here just calls it LBC. Is that where you came up with your name, or is it just a weird coincidence? Thanks for the help, everyone.

February 8, 2002, 12:34 AM	#5
DAVID NANCARROW Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,761	If you think your groups aren't exactly pristine at first, just wait until your heart's pounding, your sphincter is locked up tighter than a bank vault, and the world gets really small and intense!

February 8, 2002, 09:35 AM	#6
LBC Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2001 Posts: 385	At one point I was a big fan of Les Baer Custom. Nice guns, but the more I learn, the more I figure I don't need 2" at 50 yards. I need 8" at 7 feet, and I need it in a hurry. So my S&W 642 is now my constant companion, along with my wallet, watch, and a benchmade AFCK. For long shots I have an M1A; for short messy work I rely on my Mossberg! And for .45 ACP love I have a Colt Series 70 Combat Commander (hmmm.. looks just like my old LBC Concept VII) and a Colt XSE Government Model.

February 8, 2002, 11:42 AM	#8
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Ronin, you mean it doesn't stand for "Lafayette Brewing Company?" Mmmm, Whitetail Wheat. Caliban, don't worry; rust happens to everyone (except gunshop commandos). Another excuse to practice.

February 9, 2002, 06:07 AM	#10
LBC Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2001 Posts: 385	Hence the 11th Commandment: "Thou shalt always carry at least one reload at all times."

February 10, 2002, 04:03 PM	#11
Justin Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 1,641	Yeah, probably my biggest thing is that I need to just do more dry-fire practice. I was doing some of this the other day, and really just concentrating on keeping the front site steady. Then, just to mess with myself, I did 10 pushups. The result was, well, jittery. LBC- ok, so I stand corrected, I figured it'd be worth a shot. Ronin- sheesh, I'm about as in-tune with CA culture as, well, as me. KSFreeman- mmmm, White Tail Wheat, good stuff, although I'm partial to the Angus Oatmeal Stout, and a basket of fried pickles. Erick- Wow, that is some friend! I kind of like that idea. Everyone-yeah, it seems that the best thing is simply more range time. I shoot .22's once a week, but that's more for ISSF competition than defensive situations. I should get to the range and practice more 'practical' pistol shooting more often. <Big Grin> I can't wait for IDPA to start in April! </Big Grin>

February 11, 2002, 12:02 AM	#13
Carbon_15 Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2001 Location: Lexington, SC Posts: 938	Actualy, my first few shots are generaly the most accurate of the day. I guess I havent gotten tired, shakey and in a rut. Sometimes I notice that after shooting a few hundred rounds at paper targets I have gone into "assembly line mode" due to the repetative nature of loading high cap magazines, droping the slide and rythmicly firing. That is when I am starting to get tired and should have gone home for the day, and am just kinda going through the motions. If I put the guns down, take a step back, smoke a cigarette, chat with the guys, etc, than start shooting again, my groups improve. Also, it never fails that my last shot of the day is awfull. Then I'm annoyed all week about that one last shot that zinged out into left field. Guess thats the shooting gods way of keeping me comming back.

February 11, 2002, 12:03 PM	#14
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	If you can keep your rounds on a paper plate out to reasonable self defense distances then you are accurate enough for practical self defense. Hold a paper plate up to your chest if you don't believe me. __________________ Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective