Need for draw speed a myth? - Page 2

Scott Evans · January 29, 2011, 06:02 PM

Conditioned reflex response.
The more a neural pathway is used the more efficient the impulses flow along that rout. Such efficiencies enable faster movements.
Good technique that eliminates wasted movements elevates the potential further.
Each of us however; have physiological limits.
Knowing your limits dictates your best tactic for a given situation.
This is why consistency in training and technique is important. This is why realistic situational training is likewise; very important.
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that “a rapidly misplaced shot cannot help you” but you simply cannot discount the importance of mastering as much speed as you are capable of.

Edward429451 · January 29, 2011, 06:09 PM

Practice drawing from concealment can be done at home very easily with a triple checked empty gun and is only limited by how crazy you make your wife walking around drawing down on things in the house.

WC145 · January 29, 2011, 06:24 PM

The gun doesn't put itself in your hand. Regardless of how you carry you should be well practiced at accessing your weapon. There's no excuse for being slow on the draw.

dawg23 · January 29, 2011, 07:38 PM

Bottom Line:

1. There are some indisputable benefits associated with being able to deploy your self defense handgun quickly.

2. I cannot think of a single reason why I would want to be slow.

Jim March · January 29, 2011, 07:46 PM

Remember the recent shooting in Tucson, involving congresswoman Giffords?

I have it on reliable authority that the Federal judge who also died was armed and wasn't able to deploy it fast enough

. And he wasn't the first one shot, either.

Dammit.

Southern Rebel · January 29, 2011, 09:18 PM

Jim,

I suspect the judge was sorely lacking in both situational awareness and draw speed. Both of those shortcomings together pretty much guaranteed a bad ending.

I believe there is a lesson in this for all of us. While it had been quite a long time since we had experienced a political assassination of that magnitude, all of us knew that they can and do happen. If we allow the passing of time to lull us into a state of "code white", even the most accomplished drawing and shooting skills will not be of much use.

Double Naught Spy · January 29, 2011, 09:22 PM

Quote:

2. I cannot think of a single reason why I would want to be slow.

You don't want your draw to attact attention to your activity through your sudden quick draw motion. It may be much more stealthy to have a slow draw than a quick one. Whether or not you need to be able to draw in a manner that doesn't attract attention may determine whether drawing fast or drawing slow is prudent.

Dwight55 · January 29, 2011, 09:38 PM

I'll never forget at an IDPA meet a couple of years ago, . . . one poor guy had a beautiful S&W stainless 1911, . . . in an Uncle Mike's holster.

The drill was to draw, . . . 2 to the body, 1 to the head, . . . at I think 10 feet. We all were done, holstered, . . . he was still trying to get his gun out of the holster.

He would not have fared well in a confrontation.

May God bless,
Dwight

beex215 · January 29, 2011, 09:44 PM

slow and steady wins the race

Ryder · January 30, 2011, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Scott Evans: Conditioned reflex response.
The more a neural pathway is used the more efficient the impulses flow along that rout. Such efficiencies enable faster movements.

"Fast draw" is a reflex for me but it's the kind of reflex the doctor checks when he taps my knee with that little rubber hammer. It is an involuntary nervous system thing, not conscious muscle control.

Draw speed can be greatly increased using this system. Envision the jerk reflex of placing your hand on a hot stove. Now imagine your gun is that stove... I've heard it claimed that the human jerk reflex is 4 times faster than the strike of a rattlesnake (I will not be confirming that

).

You can practice this without a gun in your hand, in fact I highly recommend it. It's very easy to injure yourself due to the high forces involved. Your tendons need time to become conditioned.

True enough it is not required every time you draw but it is a good trick to know since knowledge often means survival.

nate45 · January 30, 2011, 05:04 AM

I'm paraphrasing here because I can't remeber the exact quote. Clint Smith said something to the effect of "I've never seen a timer at a real gun fight".

However true that may be, I'm of the opinion that as long as you maintain accuracy; the faster you are the better.

I've known many men who have been in real gun battles. Due to my age only a couple lived during the early 20th century. I remember meeting one man when I was a boy in South Texas, who in the early teens (1913-1915) drew and killed three armed Mexican bandits while guarding a payroll shipment. None of the three got off a shot. Now, I doubt there was a timer there, but I'm going to guess he did it fairly fast.

BlueTrain · January 30, 2011, 07:40 AM

The only thing I disagree with in this whole thread is that slow and steady win no races. But you still have to avoid going into the guardrail, as in droping your gun. If you have trying to get that fast draw down pat, sooner or later you might fumble. That gives you a reality check. I said in another thread that if you could get that gun out as easily as you get your wallet out, smoothly, effortlessly and "naturally," then you're getting somewhere. If it were only that easy.

Also in another thread I mentioned how some of these topics make me experiment and, sometimes, think about the little details that confound our efforts. There is the frequent discussion of what condition to carry your pistol in, and how the chamber empty carry requires two hands to get into action (Single Action Army excepted). After a while I realized that some concealed carry methods require two hands to even execute a draw. I'm referring to wearing a sweater or sweatshirt over everything and which can't just be swept aside by your gun hand. Right away there's a problem but it is a problem of one degree or another with any concealed carry method. And the "deeper" the concealment, the more difficult the draw will be, no doubt.

Even the difference between two different handguns (the grips, actually) can make a difference in the ease of the draw, though the easiest to draw might also be the more difficult to conceal, if that's important.

Double Naught Spy · January 30, 2011, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Remember the recent shooting in Tucson, involving congresswoman Giffords?

I have it on reliable authority that the Federal judge who also died was armed and wasn't able to deploy it fast enough . And he wasn't the first one shot, either.

Dammit.

Your profanity is misplaced. You state that the judge was not able to deploy his gun fast enough and that he wasn't even the first one shot. So after Zamudio, we now have a second person carrying who was not able to stop the carnage? I have to admit, such shortcomings do little to support the claims of pro-gun folks who cry out in a Sally Struthers-like manner that if just one person there had a gun, that the carnage could have been stopped. As noted previously, Zamudio wasn't actually on scene until AFTER all the shooting had stopped. So the fact that he had a gun bore no relevance on the situation.

So now you provide us new information that on good authority that Judge Roll was carrying a gun and could not deploy it fast enough and that he wasn't even the first one shot. Why do you think that is? Was Loughner so fast that he was able to shoot multiple people before shooting the judge before the judge had time to draw is concealed gun and stop the carnage? So you have it on good authority that Judge Roll was actually attempting to deploy his gun when he was shot? Maybe he was, but the reason for not being successful isn't because he didn't have time to deploy it during Loughner's lighting fast shooting spree as Loughner wasn't lightning fast. Given that Judge Roll was with Giffords behind the table that separated them (and some others) from the constituents in line to speak with Giffords, Judge Roll must have gone down next to Giffords behind the table, right?

While you claim that Judge Roll didn't have time to deploy the gun he supposedly had, he did have time to leave Giffords' side after she was shot and to move around from behind the table to being in front of it to help Ron Barber who who worked for Giffords and who was the person shot after Giffords. By the time Judge Roll got to Barber, Loughner had shot others. Then Loughner shot Judge Roll.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Tragedy-In-T...Primary-Target

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...-shooting.html

Given that the disucssion here is about the necessity of drawn speed and that you are using the Giffords event shooting as an example of a person not being fast enough despite being armed, you might save your profanity for a better reason.

If he had a gun, Judge Roll had the time to draw a gun. The problem is that Judge Roll didn't draw his supposedly carried gun and shoot Loughner before attempting to render aid. So it would be tactics, not timing, that resulted in Judge Roll's death and apparent failure to deploy his own gun and stop the carnage.

Was Judge Roll trying to draw his own gun when he was killed? There is no indication of it. If he was, not being able to get it out in time wasn't due to the slowness of his draw or Loughner's speed. It would have been because he decided way too late to draw his gun, after several folks had been shot and after he physically changed locations to render aid.

Thusfar, I have seen no information that indicates that Judge Roll was at any time ever attempting to draw any sort of weapon when he was shot. Given that he was on the ground and facing away from Loughner when he was shot in the back, it would not appear that he had any intention of confronting the shooter what-so-ever.
http://milwaukee.wisgop.info/2011/01...-we-know-this/

The Judge is a hero, but not for trying to stop the shooter. He was trying to save Ron Barber's life by rendering aid.

This summary of the event indicates that Roll tackled Barber to get him out of the line of fire. There are some partial recreations of the security tape video from Safeway.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/jared-lough...ry?id=12644306

B.N.Real · January 30, 2011, 01:32 PM

That's a failure of paying attention to your surroundings.

You should never have to lightning draw your handgun-ever.

If you feel that uncomfortable in a situation,you should already be withdrawing -yourself- from the situation,looking for cover and drawing your gun at the same time.

High noon faceoffs are for actors in movies where they are ALWAYS shooting blanks.

Edward429451 · January 30, 2011, 01:51 PM

Well...there was that time a dog was charging me and I mentally drew a line in the dirt...maybe I can't judge speed well but he was coming faster than I originally thought so I had to draw in a hurry. Luckily I had already practiced drawing from concealment so it was a no fumble situation...(for those unfamilier with my dog attack, I shot once into the dirt and turned him)

AcridSaint · January 30, 2011, 02:04 PM

All other things being equal, do you want to be the "slow" one in a gunfight? I don't. Do I think other things are equally or more important? Sure. Do I think it's pointless to be able to deploy quickly? No.

threegun · January 30, 2011, 03:26 PM

Speed of draw should be higher on the list of importance for many reasons some not listed here yet. The one missing component that may keep us alive during an armed confrontation is duress. Your adversary will likely lose accuracy as his danger level rises. So before I present my weapon he has little to fear and thus can perform to his normal skill level. Once my weapon becomes visible there should be a marked rise in his duress level which in turn should diminish his skill. The sooner this happens of course the better. The sooner you have lead headed in his direction the better. So speed of presentation has greater effect than simply beating your opponent.

threegun · January 30, 2011, 03:54 PM

Quote:

That's a failure of paying attention to your surroundings.

You should never have to lightning draw your handgun-ever.

So what do you do with all the civilians in public places anyone of which could turn from patron to robber/assaulter?

Pay attention to your surroundings and take note to how many people get extremely close to you. The line at Publix or perhaps while pumping gas. To and from the pumps. Understand that all bad guys don't look shady. The guy in the check out line behind you decides to pounce. The guy who looks like he is with the tree pruning crew. The guy pretending to talk on the pay phone.

Point is it can and does happen and even to those of us who have excellent and consistent situational awareness skills.

Double Naught Spy · January 30, 2011, 05:09 PM

Quote:

That's a failure of paying attention to your surroundings.

You should never have to lightning draw your handgun-ever.

You should never have to draw your gun, but that isn't the real world.

Quote:

If you feel that uncomfortable in a situation,you should already be withdrawing -yourself- from the situation,looking for cover and drawing your gun at the same time.

People find that they feel uncomfortable in situations on a fairly regular basis if they are dealing with the public or are otherwise on-the-go about town. You can't go around drawing your gun every time somebody you think doesn't look prim and proper enough that makes you feel uncomforable.

dawg23 · January 30, 2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

You don't want your draw to attact attention to your activity through your sudden quick draw motion.

I'm wouldn't confuse "sudden" with "not being slow."

curmudgeon1 · January 31, 2011, 05:13 AM

Even if one's mind is in condition red, there may be a situation that draw-speed could be a life-saving factor; for anyone who practices drawing once in a while, it quickly becomes apparent that smoothness of motion, point-aiming, and "take-your-time-but-hurry-up" trigger control IS speed.

nate45 · January 31, 2011, 06:01 AM

I suppose we must review the basics in every thread.

Avoidance is the best defense and key element of any credible self defense method. I'm sure most of us agree with that. If you do not, you need to rethink your strategy.

Now lets move on to where avoidance is not an option. Self defense obviously means that you are protecting against an offensive assault. You are disadvantaged from the get go. The better you are at quickly producing your hand gun the better. Two seconds in a gun battle, could easily be two or three lifetimes.

Is having your weapon in your hand before the shooting starts preferable to having it holstered? Well, duh, of course. Is not being practiced at smoothly and quickly producing it on a moments notice a good thing? Absolutely not.

BlueTrain · January 31, 2011, 06:55 AM

I think a problem with these color coded awareness levels as invented by Jeff Cooper and continued by the Committee for Homeland Security is that you cannot maintain a high level of awareness indefinately. That isn't to say it is pointless, although the system that Homeland Security used was, because it didn't come with any instructions on what to do, specifically. But for the rest of us, it is probably overdone. People usually have developed their own system anyway that fits with their own life. It just may not involve firearms and it probably won't make good reading.

Likewise, maintaining a decent level of proficiency is another thing, and what constitutes a decent level of proficiency is a whole subject in itself.

I was reading what Elmer Keith had to say on the subject of combat quick draw last night in a magazine article from 1960. He thought it was a post-graduate work with a handgun and, besides, he also thought it was a rarely needed skill. He thought you should be able to make hits on a head and shoulders silhoulette at 300 yards with a handgun before you should attempt quick draw. These days, I'd have trouble doing that with a rifle. So he had high standards. But he also said that if you had to start your draw on someone else's signal, your time would be over a second. So in some ways, he was very realistic, too.

Nnobby45 · January 31, 2011, 07:09 AM

Quote:

I don't ever recall a story of a person defending them themselves from a bad guy where draw speed was really a major factor in the outcome.

Don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but, since criminal attacks can happen quickly, why would anyone of average intellect or above question the need to access their weapon quickly in some situations?

Not saying your intellect isn't average, but I am asking why you'd suggest that speed in presenting a weapon can't be important.

Yes, I know, being alert and avoiding the situation is best, but it's not always possible.

mikerault · January 31, 2011, 09:02 AM

I never said speed wasn't important, just this idea that we all must try to reach microsecond draw speeds is rediculous. A draw that is smooth, efficient and gets you on point is what is critical. People tend to concentrate on speed over proper form and smoothness. I also contend that what you have on during practice will always be different to what you wear everyday.

January 29, 2011, 06:02 PM	#26
Scott Evans Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 7, 1998 Location: Jacksonville, NC Posts: 1,380	Conditioned reflex response. The more a neural pathway is used the more efficient the impulses flow along that rout. Such efficiencies enable faster movements. Good technique that eliminates wasted movements elevates the potential further. Each of us however; have physiological limits. Knowing your limits dictates your best tactic for a given situation. This is why consistency in training and technique is important. This is why realistic situational training is likewise; very important. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that “a rapidly misplaced shot cannot help you” but you simply cannot discount the importance of mastering as much speed as you are capable of. __________________ “This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine …” MOLON LABE ! I’m a G-CODE holster fan ! www.range5.com

January 29, 2011, 06:24 PM	#28
WC145 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Location: Downeast Maine Posts: 1,836	The gun doesn't put itself in your hand. Regardless of how you carry you should be well practiced at accessing your weapon. There's no excuse for being slow on the draw. __________________ "If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge or jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - LtCol Jeff Cooper

January 29, 2011, 07:38 PM	#29
dawg23 Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2001 Location: Louisiana Posts: 403	Bottom Line: 1. There are some indisputable benefits associated with being able to deploy your self defense handgun quickly. 2. I cannot think of a single reason why I would want to be slow. __________________ . www.PersonalDefenseTraining.net

January 29, 2011, 07:46 PM	#30
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Remember the recent shooting in Tucson, involving congresswoman Giffords? I have it on reliable authority that the Federal judge who also died was armed and wasn't able to deploy it fast enough . And he wasn't the first one shot, either. Dammit. __________________ Jim March

January 29, 2011, 09:38 PM	#33
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	I'll never forget at an IDPA meet a couple of years ago, . . . one poor guy had a beautiful S&W stainless 1911, . . . in an Uncle Mike's holster. The drill was to draw, . . . 2 to the body, 1 to the head, . . . at I think 10 feet. We all were done, holstered, . . . he was still trying to get his gun out of the holster. He would not have fared well in a confrontation. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

January 29, 2011, 06:09 PM	#27
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Practice drawing from concealment can be done at home very easily with a triple checked empty gun and is only limited by how crazy you make your wife walking around drawing down on things in the house.

January 29, 2011, 09:18 PM	#31
Southern Rebel Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2009 Posts: 165	Jim, I suspect the judge was sorely lacking in both situational awareness and draw speed. Both of those shortcomings together pretty much guaranteed a bad ending. I believe there is a lesson in this for all of us. While it had been quite a long time since we had experienced a political assassination of that magnitude, all of us knew that they can and do happen. If we allow the passing of time to lull us into a state of "code white", even the most accomplished drawing and shooting skills will not be of much use.

January 29, 2011, 09:44 PM	#34
beex215 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 317	slow and steady wins the race

January 30, 2011, 05:04 AM	#36
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	I'm paraphrasing here because I can't remeber the exact quote. Clint Smith said something to the effect of "I've never seen a timer at a real gun fight". However true that may be, I'm of the opinion that as long as you maintain accuracy; the faster you are the better. I've known many men who have been in real gun battles. Due to my age only a couple lived during the early 20th century. I remember meeting one man when I was a boy in South Texas, who in the early teens (1913-1915) drew and killed three armed Mexican bandits while guarding a payroll shipment. None of the three got off a shot. Now, I doubt there was a timer there, but I'm going to guess he did it fairly fast. __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

January 30, 2011, 07:40 AM	#37
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	The only thing I disagree with in this whole thread is that slow and steady win no races. But you still have to avoid going into the guardrail, as in droping your gun. If you have trying to get that fast draw down pat, sooner or later you might fumble. That gives you a reality check. I said in another thread that if you could get that gun out as easily as you get your wallet out, smoothly, effortlessly and "naturally," then you're getting somewhere. If it were only that easy. Also in another thread I mentioned how some of these topics make me experiment and, sometimes, think about the little details that confound our efforts. There is the frequent discussion of what condition to carry your pistol in, and how the chamber empty carry requires two hands to get into action (Single Action Army excepted). After a while I realized that some concealed carry methods require two hands to even execute a draw. I'm referring to wearing a sweater or sweatshirt over everything and which can't just be swept aside by your gun hand. Right away there's a problem but it is a problem of one degree or another with any concealed carry method. And the "deeper" the concealment, the more difficult the draw will be, no doubt. Even the difference between two different handguns (the grips, actually) can make a difference in the ease of the draw, though the easiest to draw might also be the more difficult to conceal, if that's important. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

January 30, 2011, 01:32 PM	#39
B.N.Real Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 4,092	That's a failure of paying attention to your surroundings. You should never have to lightning draw your handgun-ever. If you feel that uncomfortable in a situation,you should already be withdrawing -yourself- from the situation,looking for cover and drawing your gun at the same time. High noon faceoffs are for actors in movies where they are ALWAYS shooting blanks.

January 30, 2011, 01:51 PM	#40
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Well...there was that time a dog was charging me and I mentally drew a line in the dirt...maybe I can't judge speed well but he was coming faster than I originally thought so I had to draw in a hurry. Luckily I had already practiced drawing from concealment so it was a no fumble situation...(for those unfamilier with my dog attack, I shot once into the dirt and turned him)

January 30, 2011, 02:04 PM	#41
AcridSaint Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2009 Posts: 407	All other things being equal, do you want to be the "slow" one in a gunfight? I don't. Do I think other things are equally or more important? Sure. Do I think it's pointless to be able to deploy quickly? No.

January 30, 2011, 03:26 PM	#42
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	Speed of draw should be higher on the list of importance for many reasons some not listed here yet. The one missing component that may keep us alive during an armed confrontation is duress. Your adversary will likely lose accuracy as his danger level rises. So before I present my weapon he has little to fear and thus can perform to his normal skill level. Once my weapon becomes visible there should be a marked rise in his duress level which in turn should diminish his skill. The sooner this happens of course the better. The sooner you have lead headed in his direction the better. So speed of presentation has greater effect than simply beating your opponent.

January 31, 2011, 05:13 AM	#46
curmudgeon1 Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: n.e. ohio Posts: 544	Even if one's mind is in condition red, there may be a situation that draw-speed could be a life-saving factor; for anyone who practices drawing once in a while, it quickly becomes apparent that smoothness of motion, point-aiming, and "take-your-time-but-hurry-up" trigger control IS speed.

January 31, 2011, 06:01 AM	#47
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	Most of us are on the right track I suppose we must review the basics in every thread. Avoidance is the best defense and key element of any credible self defense method. I'm sure most of us agree with that. If you do not, you need to rethink your strategy. Now lets move on to where avoidance is not an option. Self defense obviously means that you are protecting against an offensive assault. You are disadvantaged from the get go. The better you are at quickly producing your hand gun the better. Two seconds in a gun battle, could easily be two or three lifetimes. Is having your weapon in your hand before the shooting starts preferable to having it holstered? Well, duh, of course. Is not being practiced at smoothly and quickly producing it on a moments notice a good thing? Absolutely not. __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<) Last edited by nate45; January 31, 2011 at 06:11 AM. Reason: Punctuation

January 31, 2011, 06:55 AM	#48
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	I think a problem with these color coded awareness levels as invented by Jeff Cooper and continued by the Committee for Homeland Security is that you cannot maintain a high level of awareness indefinately. That isn't to say it is pointless, although the system that Homeland Security used was, because it didn't come with any instructions on what to do, specifically. But for the rest of us, it is probably overdone. People usually have developed their own system anyway that fits with their own life. It just may not involve firearms and it probably won't make good reading. Likewise, maintaining a decent level of proficiency is another thing, and what constitutes a decent level of proficiency is a whole subject in itself. I was reading what Elmer Keith had to say on the subject of combat quick draw last night in a magazine article from 1960. He thought it was a post-graduate work with a handgun and, besides, he also thought it was a rarely needed skill. He thought you should be able to make hits on a head and shoulders silhoulette at 300 yards with a handgun before you should attempt quick draw. These days, I'd have trouble doing that with a rifle. So he had high standards. But he also said that if you had to start your draw on someone else's signal, your time would be over a second. So in some ways, he was very realistic, too. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

January 31, 2011, 09:02 AM	#50
mikerault Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2011 Posts: 109	I never said speed wasn't important, just this idea that we all must try to reach microsecond draw speeds is rediculous. A draw that is smooth, efficient and gets you on point is what is critical. People tend to concentrate on speed over proper form and smoothness. I also contend that what you have on during practice will always be different to what you wear everyday.