new reloads, whats next?

[axis223]

I shot my reloads again last night and getting decent 1 inch groups off a bipod and shot them off a set of Caldwell bags and still got 1 inch groups.

I'm wondering what the next step could be to tighten those groups up a bit. for some reason say in a 5 shot group 2-3 would touch holes or almost touch then the other 2 would be within 1 inch group.

I'm only at 22gr of h335 cci450 primers with 55gr v max all cases trimmed and set to book OAL.

[Ifishsum]

I would work the load up in 0.3 to 0.5gr increments (but not over max) and test shoot ten of each loading.

[mikld]

My method would be varying the powder charge as Ifishsum noted. Then I would try different components; different brand primer and bullets. If a crimp is being used I would vary the crimp or discontinue crimping. Change one thing at a time and keep good records along the way. But I like reloading and a long work-up is fine with me. Life would be kinda boring once I found that "perfect" load...

[axis223]

no crimp at all, loaded to 22gr and hornady OAL.

when going from cci400 to 450 mag primers groups shrunk a bit. I can buy primers by the 100 to try so will try that too. thanks.

bullets im using shoot great in factory ammo.

[Metal god]

I know you've had a few threads lately but remind me again of the firearm your using ? 1moa is pretty good for an AR , Really most firearms that would be pretty good .

How did you come up with 22gr as your best load ?( assuming it is )

22gr seems very light for the 55gr V-max . Unless your shooting a specialty bullet like solids or other types . 25gr of H-355 seems to be the go to charge for just about everyone . I shoot two fifferent 55gr FMJ-0BT bullets with H-335 . One is 25gr the other is 25.5gr . These are for 16" AR's at right around 3000fps .

If you have tried heavier charges and found that the 22gr charge was your most accurate . Then changing seating depth is one way to try and improve group size . Changing primers is another . Charge weights could be tweaked but IMHO only if your initial load development was in increments of .5gr or more . If you worked up in let say .3gr increments you likely did not skip over a accuracy node.

It's not uncommon to see your group open up as you shoot more shots . Your rifle and how well you shoot is obviously important but your barrel heating up can cause your POI to walk away on you . Can you confirm 100% that the first three shots are very tight and the next two are the ones off from the others ??

[axis223]

Metal god

Savage axis 223 heavy barrel with accu trigger turned all the way down. shot off Caldwell deadshot bags. I started at book beginning 20.8 and worked up .03 till I hit 22gr. I did 5 shots in 20.8 with cci400 all the way to 22gr then cci450 to 22gr.

The 450 primer groups in all charges was tighter than 400 primers, gun got a little hot yesterday. could also be it was dirty. forgot it was dirty until just a bit ago.

I will work it up and see what happens. was wondering about changing OAL if that was the next step, would I go higher in OAL to get closer to the lans.

someone else said seat a dummy round by pushing it into the lans and run with that.

[98 220 swift]

I weigh each case and segregate them where each 5 shot group the cases weigh within a few tenths of a grain from each other. I do the same to the bullets except they will weigh the same as each other to the tenth of a grain. Seems to help my groups. You will be surprised how much difference there is in the brass. The 55gr vmax do seem fairly consistant for me on weight though.

[Metal god]

Couple things there IMO . First I think it's always good may be best to know what your MAX COAL is for each bullet type and weight before you start . Max to me is not jammed into the lands but rather just touching them .

There are a few ways to find your max COAL . Seating a bullet into FL sized case VERY long no primer no powder then try to lightly chamber the round . In a Savage you likely will not be able to chamber do to the bullet engaging the lands/rifling and causing quite a bit of resistance . "If" you can't chamber the round ( remember you're not trying to force closed , Looking for normal force to close bolt ) . Seat the bullet a little deeper try to chamber . Repeat process until you can chamber the round with no resistance on the bolt when closing . Eject the round and measure . That measurement should be pretty close to your MAX COAL .

There's another method that uses a fired case from your rifle and the intended bullet to be used . This method takes a little more feel and understanding to get right . That is to lightly crimp the mouth of the case to barely hold the bullet ( use crimp die or pliers ) . The bullet hold should be strong enough to hold the bullet in the neck if you turn the cartridge bullet down or if you give the cartridge a little shake . At the same time light enough to easily slide the bullet back and forth with your fingers . Pull the bullet out pretty far to where it's barely seated . Now slowly chamber the round . As the bullet hits the lands it should be pushed into the case . Now slowly extract the case not letting the ejector fling it out of the action . Carefully measure , this to should be very close to your max COAL . The one problem this method has is depending on the bullet hold . The bullet could stick in the lands and fail to come out with the case . Or it sticks to the lands just enough to to be slightly pulled back out of the neck giving a false measurement .

I use the Hornady COAL gauge
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/570...ge-bolt-action

You will need the correct modified case to go with it
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/290...-223-remington

What COAL should you start at ? Well for anyone new to reloading I recommend you use the manuals suggested COAL . If you choose to go longer . Again for the new reloader I recommend you seat your bullet NO CLOSER then .020 off the lands . This should give you some wiggle room for safety .

I wrote this on another forum about seating depth . It's about the 308 and measurement for that cartridge but the over all point is the same .

Originally Posted by Me

If it were me I'd first ask my self how I plan to shoot . Will I be loading from the mag or will I load one shot at a time by hand .

If you plan to load from the mag most of the time . Then I'd load a COAL as long as I could that would still load and feed from the mag reliably . The fact you are starting at pretty much minimum charge at 40.3gr . You should be fine to load at just about any COAL that securely and safely holds the bullet .

If loading single shots where you never use the mag . Then I'd start at the longest I could seat them that still allows good bullet hold . If you can get right up to the lands . I'd drop the start charge to 39.0gr . Now if you can't and you end up 10+ thousandths off the lands . I'd say 40.3gr is still a good start load because Hodgdon has the 175gr start charge at 41.5gr at a COAL of 2.800 .

The reason I'm suggesting you start seated out as long as possible is as you get closer to the lands your start & peak pressures go up . So if you start long at "MINIMUM OR JUST BELOW" charge you should still be starting at safe pressures . Now if at any point you find a load you like that does NOT show pressure signs and you want to fine tune them by adjusting seating depth . You can only go one direction and that's deeper ( farther off the lands ) which will actually reduce pressure ( to a point , you could get to a point that seating the bullet so deep into the case you actually reduce case volume which could increase pressures) but if you started way out past 2.800 , you'll have a long ways to go before you find your self in any danger .

Now lets turn that around and say you load at a COAL of 2.810 or 2.820 . That's fine and really the closer to 2.800 is the best place to start when new to reloading . How ever keeping in mind that the closer you seat the bullet to the lands . The higher the pressures are going to be . So now lets say you find that good load that may be close to max pressure . When and or if you want to fine tune that load by adjusting seating depth . You only have one direction to go and that's longer ( or closer to the lands ) which can push the close to max pressure load way past safe pressures .

Sorry if that sounded confusing I'm not the best at explanations through written word . To simplify , if you are starting at minimum charge I'd seat them longer then 2,820 as long as they're not touching or jammed into the lands .

As you can see this was specifically written for a member . The point is the same , generally the closer you get to the lands the higher the pressures will be for the same charged load that's seated way off the lands . So in your case and lets say you have found your MAX COAL is 2.275 with a specific bullet . Now If you are at what you believe is close to max load/pressures at a COAL of 2,220 and then seat the bullet longer ( closer to the lands ) . You can and will likely push that other wise max but safe load way over pressure by seating it very close to the lands .

This is why once you get a good feel for what you're doing . Starting your load development much closer to your max COAL is better IMHO . This way when you find your MAX pressure with that long COAL . If you do want to adjust seating depth you only have one direction to go and that's deeper into the case or farther off the lands which should result in less pressure .

REMEMBER IF YOU CHANGE ANYTHING PERTAINING TO A LOAD YOU SHOULD REDUCE YOUR CHARGE AND WORK BACK UP .

[Metal god]

I'm wondering what the next step could be to tighten those groups up a bit. for some reason say in a 5 shot group 2-3 would touch holes or almost touch then the other 2 would be within 1 inch group.

Savage axis 223 heavy barrel with accu trigger turned all the way down. shot off Caldwell deadshot bags.

I kinda remember now . Were you the one that we were talking about the Axis flimsy stock touching the barrel when shooting and that changing the barrel vibration/harmonics ?? That can very much effect your groups and there consistency . I have A Ruger American that did the same thing . I mean it flexed real easy to where a heavy headed cheek weld would cause them to touch . I sanded out the barrel channel using sand paper wrapped around a dowel . I opened up the channel enough to where moderate pressure on the forend did not cause the stock and barrel to touch . The material removed was really not that much . At a glance you can't even tell I did anything to it .


But looking from the front you can see there is much more room in the barrel channel


The rifle shot much more consistent after that .

[axis223]

possibly was.

the stock does touch but what I started doing was push into the bipod to separate it. boyds stock coming real soon for that rifle so wont have that issue.

[Metal god]

So I was just looking in my Hornady manual at the 223 data . there 55gr page shows to me that the 55gr V-max has a longer baring surface then the 55gr FMJ-BT . although I know guys use 25gr of H335 with that bullet in there AR's . right now in your 223 I would not go over 24gr and that's .8 gr over hornadys max . just watch real close for pressure signs as you approach 23gr and up

EDIT

And now I look at my Lyman manual and they have the 60gr v-max , maxing out at 25.8gr . For 223

[axis223]

Hopefully my buddy ordered my chronograph and I can see if I'm hitting high fps.

[Nathan]

I would work on your load in this order:
1) Establish a rock solid rest and standard way of holding your gun on that rest.
2) try light for twist rate flat base bullets. They are usually most accurate.
3) Measure fired cases, especially base to shoulder datum with a Hornady LNL gage or similar. Set your fl sized cases to ~ fired -0.002".
4) look at Bullet runout with a tool for that. Sometimes slight die setup or brass culling can really help.
5) determine point where Bullet touches lands and establish a most accurate gap.
6) get a powder dispenser for truely accurate charge weights

....somewhere along the line, you will probably stop seeing meaningful changes in group size. You can stop & be happy, rebarrel or buy new rifle, start over with premium brass/premium bullets, start over with premium dies, try starting over with new primers, start over with new powder, start over with new load development philosophy.