+P ammo and handguns

rdf.hack · June 25, 2011, 04:03 PM

What should someone like me, who knows +P means over pressure but not much more, should know about firing this ammo in either a semi or revolver. Will it increase wear/reduce life of parts, wear out barrel, etc?

Microgunner · June 25, 2011, 04:05 PM

It does increase stress and wear and will shorten firearm's lifespan.

rdf.hack · June 25, 2011, 04:07 PM

Whats the value in it?

bikerbill · June 25, 2011, 04:08 PM

+p rounds will put more stress on your gun, but unless you shoot 100 rds a day for a long time, it's unlikely you will notice any damage ... the real issue is control of the weapon ...more power means more recoil ... I enjoy shooting my Smith 637 with standard .38 rounds; +p rounds are painful and I don't even own any ... my self-defense rounds, in either 9mm or .45, are all standard pressure ... you need to try some in whatever gun you plan to use and decide for yourself if the extra power is worth it in terms of time getting back on target after the harsh recoil of the +p ...

ClydeFrog · June 25, 2011, 04:14 PM

+P and/or +P+ are industry terms which mean the round is a HIGHER CUP(copper units of pressure) level.
+P or +P+ handgun ammunition may cause increased wear BUT some modern weapons like HK's USP models or Smith & Wesson's newer DA revolvers are rated to handle these powerful loads.

For details check; www.SAAMI.org . That is the industry group that deals with ammunition & designs/engineering.

Clyde

rdf.hack · June 25, 2011, 04:17 PM

Okay thanks. I just didn't know much regarding it. Couldn't have figured it out on my own nearly as well.

Mello2u · June 25, 2011, 05:09 PM

Quote:

RedDaemonFox

Whats the value in it?

Very little increased value in +P ammo, if you measure value by the price you pay and the product you get. By that measure you may pay same but get a bit more energy or momentum; thus a little more value.

For example:
9mm Remington Golden Saber Jacketed Hollow Point Bullet 124 Grain, 1125 fps, 349 ft/lbs. energy muzzle. $15.19/25rds

9mm +P Remington Golden Saber Jacketed Hollow Point 124 Grain, 1180 fps, 384 ft/lbs. energy muzzle. $15.19/25rds
(information found at www.cheaperthandirt.us)

sheepman · June 25, 2011, 05:40 PM

The trade off is in shoot ability over a little more powder. Personalty I will use standard ammo for a little faster second shot over the little bit of energy gained by +P. It is better (IMHO) to go to a more powerful gun and cartage than to try to make a magnum out of a lesser caliber gun (example 38/357).I am happy with a standard 9mm, 40 or 45 with out +P.

C0untZer0 · June 25, 2011, 07:01 PM

I really think the whole 10mm thing is cool. I mean, it's a big gun firing really fast bullets, it can be used to take game or defend against large predators like cougars and grizzly bears.

But I've never fired one.

I was at the range today and someone next to me was firing a cannon. I don't know what it was, it was a semi, but it wasn't 9mm or .45, and if it was .40 S&W they must have been firing Buffalo Bore or something. It was LOUD.

I just thought to myself, "Eh... I'll stick with 9mm"

I feel the same way about the magnums, +P and +P+ loads...

C0untZer0 · June 25, 2011, 08:15 PM

I also sort of wonder about people who feel the need to get super-powerful handguns for HD. I just feel like - If you think that you need a 50 cal something or other to defend your home because nothing else in your mind is adequate, isn't it time to get a shotgun? I mean if you're at that point then it's time to be loadin with those magnum 3" shells...

redlevel42 · June 25, 2011, 10:34 PM

+p is, for the most part, a marketing ploy. You will go broke before you wear out a k-frame S&W or even an all steel j-frame shooting +p from the major manufacturers. In 38 special, when you really get right down to it, a 125 grain bullet at 925 fps ain't really much. It doesn't make sense to pay what the major manufacturers want for what amounts to an anemic load with a fancy sounding name.

Buffalo Bore ammo is another matter. I carry their +p 158 grain lswchp in my two-inch and three-inch all steel j-frames. A 158 grain soft lead bullet at more than 1000 fps from the two-inch Model 60 makes it a very viable carry weapon.

ClydeFrog · June 25, 2011, 11:19 PM

I agree with the last forum post(Red).
The +P increase helps most with short barrel/snub revolvers or compact pistols but it's not a requirement.

For regular duty or CC/defense I would buy a +P or +P+ in 9x19mm or .38spl.

As I stated wear may increase but new pistol barrels & springs can be obtained too.

Mobuck · June 26, 2011, 09:28 AM

In the case of 38 special, there is quite a margin for improvement since the original cartridge and revolver were basically a blackpowder design. The upper end of the +P rated ammo does offer a significant increase in velocity and resultant energy compared to the pre-1900 based loading.
Not all +P ammo is markedly hotter than the current standard load ammo due to improvements in powder technology. Some of those top level +P loads are in a range that would put undue stress on the older designed S&W/Colt revolvers but are easily within the design parameters of the modern steel production revolvers.
Regarding some of the so called +P rated ammo for the 9mm, that round is already operating at a fairly high pressure level and can't be improved significantly w/o reaching a level exceeding the design of many older pistols still on the market.
I don't use +P 9mm but find +P 38 Sp worthwhile and load/fire it often in suitable revolvers.

Deaf Smith · June 26, 2011, 06:45 PM

RDF,

Just get a Glock or Ruger Security Six and don't fret.

Both eat +p as if it was powerpuff ammo.

Deaf

orionengnr · June 26, 2011, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Whats the value in it?

IMHO, +p ammo can help to regain some of the velocity lost by a short barrel.
For example, I own (and carry) 3" and 4" 1911s as well as 5"ers. I use +p in the shorter barrels.
I also own a Kahr PM9, and use +p ammo in it.
I practice with this ammo (not exclusively, obviously) so I am familiar with it's recoil. POA/POI is not an issue at SD ranges (~25 ft).

rdf.hack · June 26, 2011, 08:41 PM

Thanks Deaf Smith but I was just curious as to the meaning. I'm planning on a Makarov for my first pistol.

paladin-34 · June 26, 2011, 09:34 PM

Why +P?

Handguns do not have the shock wave of a rifle. So non critical hits (heart, head) stop the target by bleeding out. That be the case I prefer the lighter recoil, higher accuracy, faster cycle rate of standard ammo.

Joe

youngunz4life · June 26, 2011, 09:42 PM

I prefer +P ammo when I buy hollows for my 38(or 38s that can be used out of my 357 too).

I do tend to agree with the argument that +P isn't totally necessary. I just prefer something with the little extra speed that expands a little quicker. I figure it's not worse; it just might be a little better.

Hook686 · June 26, 2011, 10:58 PM

Definately different strokes for different folks. I load .38+P, 9mm+P and heavy .44 Special. I shoot magnum frame .357 and .44. The 9mm is a S&W that indicates in the manual that +P is ok in the pistol.

I have a WWII Walther P-38 that I will only shoot standard 9mm in. This just seems wise with the older firearms, but modern handguns in good condition I do not see a problem with +P. I suspect after I shoot it for a life time, my son will probably be able to do same.

Wildalaska · June 26, 2011, 11:40 PM

Quote:

I'm planning on a Makarov for my first pistol.

I doubt there is any 9x18 +P

WildbuticouldbewrongAlaska ™©2002-2011

PS...one of the worst "First Pistols" ever is the Makarov

armsmaster270 · June 27, 2011, 12:00 AM

last I knew there was no industry standard for +P+ ammo

Deaf Smith · June 27, 2011, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Thanks Deaf Smith but I was just curious as to the meaning. I'm planning on a Makarov for my first pistol.

RDF,

I've got a pair of Maks.

Now if you use +p in a Mak I strongly suggest you get a WOLF Gunsprings Makarov extra power recoil spring. Otherwise it will batter the gun alot.

Now that does not mean the Mak is a weak or bad pistol. I think pretty highly of the Mak myself. And if you do intend to carry it just make sure it's 100 percent functional with the ammo and you practice often. Pity they don't make a .22 unit for it (they once did!)

Deaf

Newton24b · June 27, 2011, 07:35 PM

seriously, if your 9mm is such a wonderful manstopper, why is everyone trying to get more power out of it? thats what you really need to ask, not "is higher pressure going to hurt my gun"

sandbag · June 27, 2011, 09:33 PM

Just today,a gunsmith I know told me +P is like driving your car at 95 all the time.If you go at 65 most of the time it'll last longer.
Modern guns in good repair won't kaboom with commercial +P loads,but there is a definite wear factor.
It's like the "heavy" hunting loads from Buffalo Bore and Double Tap-a steady diet can wear down any handgun.
Use 'em when there's a need.

Eagleks · June 27, 2011, 10:44 PM

As long as the gun is designed for +P :

* Unless you shoot a few thousand rounds of it, you won't notice anything in terms of wear. It's not like it's going to do much in a few hundred rounds. On a revolver, not much of anything will happen to the gun (springs maybe).

* It will cycle your slide faster on a semi and gives more penetration.

That's pretty much it.

June 25, 2011, 04:03 PM	#1
rdf.hack Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2011 Posts: 173	+P ammo and handguns What should someone like me, who knows +P means over pressure but not much more, should know about firing this ammo in either a semi or revolver. Will it increase wear/reduce life of parts, wear out barrel, etc?

June 25, 2011, 04:05 PM	#2
Microgunner Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 3,324	It does increase stress and wear and will shorten firearm's lifespan. __________________ *Proud NRA Benefactor Member*

June 25, 2011, 04:08 PM	#4
bikerbill Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2007 Location: Lago Vista TX Posts: 2,425	+p rounds will put more stress on your gun, but unless you shoot 100 rds a day for a long time, it's unlikely you will notice any damage ... the real issue is control of the weapon ...more power means more recoil ... I enjoy shooting my Smith 637 with standard .38 rounds; +p rounds are painful and I don't even own any ... my self-defense rounds, in either 9mm or .45, are all standard pressure ... you need to try some in whatever gun you plan to use and decide for yourself if the extra power is worth it in terms of time getting back on target after the harsh recoil of the +p ... __________________ "The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." Albert Camus

June 25, 2011, 04:14 PM	#5
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	+P and +P+: SAAMI.... +P and/or +P+ are industry terms which mean the round is a HIGHER CUP(copper units of pressure) level. +P or +P+ handgun ammunition may cause increased wear BUT some modern weapons like HK's USP models or Smith & Wesson's newer DA revolvers are rated to handle these powerful loads. For details check; www.SAAMI.org . That is the industry group that deals with ammunition & designs/engineering. Clyde

June 25, 2011, 05:40 PM	#8
sheepman Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2007 Location: Moses Lake WA Posts: 395	The trade off is in shoot ability over a little more powder. Personalty I will use standard ammo for a little faster second shot over the little bit of energy gained by +P. It is better (IMHO) to go to a more powerful gun and cartage than to try to make a magnum out of a lesser caliber gun (example 38/357).I am happy with a standard 9mm, 40 or 45 with out +P. __________________ The best gun is the one you have when you really need one

June 25, 2011, 04:07 PM	#3
rdf.hack Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2011 Posts: 173	Whats the value in it?

June 25, 2011, 04:17 PM	#6
rdf.hack Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2011 Posts: 173	Okay thanks. I just didn't know much regarding it. Couldn't have figured it out on my own nearly as well.

June 25, 2011, 07:01 PM	#9
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I really think the whole 10mm thing is cool. I mean, it's a big gun firing really fast bullets, it can be used to take game or defend against large predators like cougars and grizzly bears. But I've never fired one. I was at the range today and someone next to me was firing a cannon. I don't know what it was, it was a semi, but it wasn't 9mm or .45, and if it was .40 S&W they must have been firing Buffalo Bore or something. It was LOUD. I just thought to myself, "Eh... I'll stick with 9mm" I feel the same way about the magnums, +P and +P+ loads... Last edited by C0untZer0; June 25, 2011 at 08:05 PM.

June 25, 2011, 08:15 PM	#10
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I also sort of wonder about people who feel the need to get super-powerful handguns for HD. I just feel like - If you think that you need a 50 cal something or other to defend your home because nothing else in your mind is adequate, isn't it time to get a shotgun? I mean if you're at that point then it's time to be loadin with those magnum 3" shells...

June 25, 2011, 10:34 PM	#11
redlevel42 Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2007 Location: South Georgia Posts: 310	+p is, for the most part, a marketing ploy. You will go broke before you wear out a k-frame S&W or even an all steel j-frame shooting +p from the major manufacturers. In 38 special, when you really get right down to it, a 125 grain bullet at 925 fps ain't really much. It doesn't make sense to pay what the major manufacturers want for what amounts to an anemic load with a fancy sounding name. Buffalo Bore ammo is another matter. I carry their +p 158 grain lswchp in my two-inch and three-inch all steel j-frames. A 158 grain soft lead bullet at more than 1000 fps from the two-inch Model 60 makes it a very viable carry weapon. __________________ Georgia on My Mind

June 25, 2011, 11:19 PM	#12
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	The value of +P rounds.... I agree with the last forum post(Red). The +P increase helps most with short barrel/snub revolvers or compact pistols but it's not a requirement. For regular duty or CC/defense I would buy a +P or +P+ in 9x19mm or .38spl. As I stated wear may increase but new pistol barrels & springs can be obtained too.

June 26, 2011, 09:28 AM	#13
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	In the case of 38 special, there is quite a margin for improvement since the original cartridge and revolver were basically a blackpowder design. The upper end of the +P rated ammo does offer a significant increase in velocity and resultant energy compared to the pre-1900 based loading. Not all +P ammo is markedly hotter than the current standard load ammo due to improvements in powder technology. Some of those top level +P loads are in a range that would put undue stress on the older designed S&W/Colt revolvers but are easily within the design parameters of the modern steel production revolvers. Regarding some of the so called +P rated ammo for the 9mm, that round is already operating at a fairly high pressure level and can't be improved significantly w/o reaching a level exceeding the design of many older pistols still on the market. I don't use +P 9mm but find +P 38 Sp worthwhile and load/fire it often in suitable revolvers. Last edited by Mobuck; June 26, 2011 at 09:34 AM.

June 26, 2011, 06:45 PM	#14
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	RDF, Just get a Glock or Ruger Security Six and don't fret. Both eat +p as if it was powerpuff ammo. Deaf __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

June 26, 2011, 08:41 PM	#16
rdf.hack Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2011 Posts: 173	Thanks Deaf Smith but I was just curious as to the meaning. I'm planning on a Makarov for my first pistol.

June 26, 2011, 09:34 PM	#17
paladin-34 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Posts: 177	Why +P? Handguns do not have the shock wave of a rifle. So non critical hits (heart, head) stop the target by bleeding out. That be the case I prefer the lighter recoil, higher accuracy, faster cycle rate of standard ammo. Joe __________________ New York: where we import politicians but no standard cap mag.s. 7 rounds in a 10 round mag, andy will be running for president soon.

June 26, 2011, 09:42 PM	#18
youngunz4life Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2010 Location: United States of America Posts: 1,877	I prefer +P ammo when I buy hollows for my 38(or 38s that can be used out of my 357 too). I do tend to agree with the argument that +P isn't totally necessary. I just prefer something with the little extra speed that expands a little quicker. I figure it's not worse; it just might be a little better. __________________ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864

June 26, 2011, 10:58 PM	#19
Hook686 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2005 Location: USA The Great State of California Posts: 2,090	Definately different strokes for different folks. I load .38+P, 9mm+P and heavy .44 Special. I shoot magnum frame .357 and .44. The 9mm is a S&W that indicates in the manual that +P is ok in the pistol. I have a WWII Walther P-38 that I will only shoot standard 9mm in. This just seems wise with the older firearms, but modern handguns in good condition I do not see a problem with +P. I suspect after I shoot it for a life time, my son will probably be able to do same. __________________ Hook686 When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.

June 27, 2011, 12:00 AM	#21
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	last I knew there was no industry standard for +P+ ammo __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

June 27, 2011, 07:35 PM	#23
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	seriously, if your 9mm is such a wonderful manstopper, why is everyone trying to get more power out of it? thats what you really need to ask, not "is higher pressure going to hurt my gun"

June 27, 2011, 09:33 PM	#24
sandbag Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2008 Posts: 642	+P Just today,a gunsmith I know told me +P is like driving your car at 95 all the time.If you go at 65 most of the time it'll last longer. Modern guns in good repair won't kaboom with commercial +P loads,but there is a definite wear factor. It's like the "heavy" hunting loads from Buffalo Bore and Double Tap-a steady diet can wear down any handgun. Use 'em when there's a need.

June 27, 2011, 10:44 PM	#25
Eagleks Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 575	As long as the gun is designed for +P : * Unless you shoot a few thousand rounds of it, you won't notice anything in terms of wear. It's not like it's going to do much in a few hundred rounds. On a revolver, not much of anything will happen to the gun (springs maybe). * It will cycle your slide faster on a semi and gives more penetration. That's pretty much it.

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