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Old March 10, 2011, 09:33 AM   #26
mavracer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PIGMAN
Here is the only pistol suitable for dispatching big bears.
that might be a good idea if you miss you'll be knocked out and won't feel the bear eating you.
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Old March 10, 2011, 11:19 AM   #27
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Sure it is.
Its kinda funny, but most people forget that high speed jacketed bullets are only a recent invention.
People have been killing bears, moose and every other animal on the planet for 300+ years with slow, heavy bullets from around 44 caliber. Then came the invention of jacketed bullets and animals became bullet-proof.
If I had my choice (and I do) I would use a heavy flat nosed cast bullet instead of a jacketed one (and I do).
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Old March 10, 2011, 03:42 PM   #28
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I've worked and camped in the grizzly forests of western Montana. I carried a Remington 760 (slide action) in 30-06 loaded with 220 grain core-lockt ammo. Nope, I never shot a grizzly. But I'm confident that the aught six would do the job.

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Old March 10, 2011, 04:28 PM   #29
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Just remember that it's one thing when you get to choose your battleground with a large bear (for instance, a long shot from cover), quite another in this scenario where the bear was a surprise visitor to what it probably assumed was a sure win compared to the nice little lunchbox sized mammals. Again, short of a good CNS shot, there are no guarantees with a determined bruin. I guess the best answer to this question is the biggest one you can handle.
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Old March 10, 2011, 04:53 PM   #30
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A rifle is without a doubt the best option when you are in windy conditions and pepper spray is out of the question. The issue boils down to being able to carry at all times such a large weapon while doing the chores many do in the woods. It becomes a practical issue of being able to be hands free, yet still have some form of lethal force available.

Greg Brush was able to draw in one second and get a "lucky" shot that apparantly severed the beast spinal cord. It is very unlikely that he would have been able to take a rifle, turn behind him and get a shot off in one second with any rifle. In that situation, the rifle would have been a hindrance, not a help.

Quote:
Brush instinctively back-pedaled to avoid the charge, drawing the Ruger from its holster. “I fired from the hip as he closed the distance,” Brush recalls. “I know I missed the first shot, but I clearly hit him after that. I believe I fired four or five shots."
http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos...ode-1001334546
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Old March 10, 2011, 06:21 PM   #31
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That was a small grizzley bear at 500 lbs and a lucky ranger.

I've seen and read where Alaskan Fishing guides carry a 12 gauge pump shotgun with slugs for bear defense.

I saw a show on TV where they used it and the bear dropped.

Gotta be better than a handgun.

Still, I think a ruger in .454 casull might be comforting in the tent at night - .454 on the right side and the 12 gauge on the left side.
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Old March 10, 2011, 07:19 PM   #32
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When I see the question posed by the OP I am not considering a lucky shot. I think of being adequate under most conditions, including being big enough to stop an attack from a distance under good conditions.

With those criteria, the answer is "No." Certainly a shot in the brain would stop a Brown Bear, but in my view it would be more luck than proving adequacy. I have read that Bell killed 1,000 elephants with a .275 Rigby (I think), but that does not establish that a .275 would be an adequate elephant rifle today. I doubt any PWH would use one even if it were legal.

When I was stationed in Alaska, I carried a .44 Mag when fishing, but I did not have any thoughts that it would stop a bear. I just could not carry my .375 Mag.

I suspect that if we were attacked by a bear most of us could not make a brain shot in the time required. At least I am not confident that I could.

Regards,
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Old March 10, 2011, 08:15 PM   #33
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Dear Jerry, thank you for the reasoned response, but your comment really goes to the heart of my OP. From a practical standpoint, how many of us could carry a .375 magnum? How many could carry a .44 magnum everywhere we go? So from a pragmatic standpoint, when you look at penetration, the .44 magnum delivers a large bore hard cast bullet with enough penetration to go through and through most bears.

It will not deliver that with hydrostatic shock that gives rifles their killing power, no argument there. But going to the heart of the issue, being able to carry a .44 magnum at all times, it wins hands down over the .375 magnum as you have already alluded.

I truly have no problem considering carrying a .44 magnum in the areas I will be going in northern Idaho along with bear pepper spray. I truly believe that is going to be adequate protection especially when done in concert with other members of the party so armed. There truly are enough examples of people who have successfully defended against a bear attack with a .44 magnum.

That being said, whenever I can carry my .444 Marlin, that will be over my shoulder as first choice with my .44 in cross carry on the opposite hip. There are times where it is simply impracticle to have a Marlin slung over your shoulder. In those situations, would anyone NOT carry a handgun for back up? That is really the question. I am sure that I can find more examples of bear defense with handguns such as the man who killed a grizzly in Denali last year with a .45 ACP of all things.

Is it the BEST defense, absolutely not. Is it enough, absolutely yes with proper shot placement as has been discussed.

God bless,

Alaska

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Old March 11, 2011, 07:06 PM   #34
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We have to make some concessions in our activities and the degrees of protection. I would much rather have a 12 ga with slugs, but when fishing it is not very practical to carry anything except a handgun.

While the "bigger the better" as far as killing power is concerned, I have trouble with a .44 Mag, and I could not handle the 500s and such.

So for me the .44 Mag would be my companion for fishing. I might carry a light shotgun when hiking and keep it in hand. I doubt one would have time to get it into action from a sling if an attack came suddenly.

Regards,
Jerry
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Old March 11, 2011, 11:24 PM   #35
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The Forest Service arms one crew member in Alaskan Bear country to protect the other workers. The other workers may carry a weapon if they wish, but one individual is tasked with protecting the others. They did a lot of ballistic and function testing, and no handgun made the cut, and even in the Ruger Carbine the .44 Magnum did not meet the requirements, both for ballistics and for semi-auto function, which was considered less than acceptable. The .375 H&H Magnum made the cut. Some of the larger calibers, like .405, .45-70, and the like were close competitors, but not chosen for one reason or the other.
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Old March 11, 2011, 11:45 PM   #36
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If you were one of the Forest service workers not assigned to the .375 magnum, would you carry a .44 magnum on your hip while working?

Who would argue against the .375 magnum to stop a bear as more ideal than a .44 magnum. Once again, not really my point in the OP. Is it enough? There are numerous examples where a hand gun was enough. Granted, many take issue with that statement yet the question is not what is the best, it is in other words, would you utilize a handgun such as a .44 magnum in the situations where you could not sling a .375 over your shoulder. My answer is absolutely yes, and if I was a Forest service worker, the .44 magnum would be right on my hip while working.
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Old March 12, 2011, 12:37 AM   #37
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Quote:
Read the story. That guy got lucky. After looking at the size of that bear, I've concluded that I can't think of any handgun round that I'd feel "safe" with. If I ever venture into the woods in Alaska, I think I'll just keep my rifle strapped to me at all times.
That's fine and dandy depending on how much venturing you do. Then it becomes a pain in the arse. Not to mention how do you get your rifle into action when you're buttoned up in your sleeping bag at night?

Carrying a handgun in the woods for wildlife defense is not much different than carrying one for people defense. If you knew you would be getting into a situation that required you shooting your way out, you'd bring rifles, extra ammo and friends who are doing the same.

The handgun provides a compromise of convenience that is likely to be with you when you set the rifle down. As always the best defense is your passive radar giving you enough time to make more decisions.
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Old March 12, 2011, 12:43 AM   #38
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Quote:
Is .44 Magnum Big Enough for Brown Bear?
While brown bears have certainly been killed with a 44 Mag, it would not be my weapon of choice. Google Larry Kelly (the founder of MagnaPort and a huge fan of hunting with a 44 Mag). If the story is still on the internet, he related a story about a hunting trip where he shot a brown bear at powder burn distance 6 times, and the bear just walked away, the guide had to shoot it with a 375 H&H. Brown bears are just too big and tough to be put down reliably in an emergency by a 44 Mag.
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Old March 12, 2011, 01:56 AM   #39
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Scorch....CORRECT....
A 30-30 outclasses a 44 mag...I never hear..Is a 30-30 enough for brown bear??? Duh............
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Old March 12, 2011, 05:45 AM   #40
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I had one AK bear SD situation on a 6'6" nose to tail black bear.Frontal,him on hind legs,bead on his nose,my 12 ga slug took out his two lower front teeth,then failed to penetrate.he fell down and got back up.Next slug got neck cns.IMO,standard foster soft lead slugs are marginal for penetration.I would use the premium dangerous game slugs.
I'll spare the details,but expanding style jacketed .44 mag bullets in the 240 gr class do not penetrate well.They expand.Fine on a deer.Not good to stop bear.Heavy,hardcast bullets are going to penetrate.Same goes for your .444.With all due respect to a fine rifle,cartridge overall length to feed,twist,etc,I may be wrong,but are there many workable loads over 270 gr in .444? Beware a .44 mag expanding bullet driven at .444 velocity will penetrate less than a .44 mag due to bullet expansion at higher velocity.
Ross Siefred thought enough of a hotrodded 45 colt in a Ruger Bisley with heavy cast bullets he went to Africa and killed a Cape buffalo with it.Maybe one person needs a light,handy serious rifle.I made a foam core/kevlar/glass stocked 21 in bbl lightweight .375 Taylor(necked .458).Muleabelle.
I sure do believe in having a bear gun in AK.I agree CNS is the quick kill.Generally that is protected by bone.Orthopedic damage is one way to slam the cns.Penetration and breaking things is good.Expanding in a white tail is not good.
A cut down ,slenderized 18 in bbl generic non collectable 8mm mauser loaded with 200 grain partitions will work.
I do believe in being well armed.Odds of a bear problem are small.You can make them much smaller by using good practice in bear country.Take that small percentage and think about it.Bear spray is a percentage.Not bad,and,it may just buy a few seconds,or not.
You could get too close to the bear's dead moose or surprise it or otherwise have an ambush pulled on you.Ambushes are bad.Sometimes,the bear wins.
But another percentage is the bear who won't leave.He may kill you in time,but if you had a 30-40 Krag you could place a shot.make your odds.A lot of infantry keep thier rifle with them all the time.
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Old March 12, 2011, 10:02 AM   #41
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Hello HiBC,

[You could get too close to the bear's dead moose or surprise it or otherwise have an ambush pulled on you.Ambushes are bad.Sometimes,the bear wins.]

It seems every year I was in Alaska 60 - 64) someone got mauled by a bear that they surprised. In addition I had an Army friend who was attacked by a grizzly around 1973 or '74 while he and his wife were moose hunting.
He was using a .300 Win Mag, and I think his wife was using a .270. The bear was on him so fast he only got in one shot from the hip. His wife got in a shot, but the bear mauled his legs pretty badly. The bear then retreated, and as far as I remember was never found.

In 1963, I think, there was a shortage of berries and other things that bear eat and there were several attacks by black bears. At least one camper was killed.

When bears attack they are on you before you know it. It would be nice if they roared and attacked from 100 yards, but it seemed to never happen that way. Hunters are stalking other game, and Alaska is brushy and high grass causes the hunter and the bear to be unaware of each other until too close.

Under those circumstances one is fortunate to come out unscathed no matter what gun he is carrying. That is a major reason that one should never hunt alone if possible. Bear spray would be a good addition to a gun,and a partner could probably spray the bear when he might hesitate to shoot.

Not a pretty picture. Unless a brain shot, a 500 - 1,000 pound bear cannot be stopped instantly with anything we carry.

Regards,
Jerry
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Old March 12, 2011, 01:07 PM   #42
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Quote:
I had one AK bear SD situation on a 6'6" nose to tail black bear.Frontal,him on hind legs,bead on his nose,my 12 ga slug took out his two lower front teeth,then failed to penetrate.he fell down and got back up.Next slug got neck cns.IMO,standard foster soft lead slugs are marginal for penetration.I would use the premium dangerous game slugs.
I'll spare the details,but expanding style jacketed .44 mag bullets in the 240 gr class do not penetrate well.They expand.Fine on a deer.Not good to stop bear.Heavy,hardcast bullets are going to penetrate.Same goes for your .444.With all due respect to a fine rifle,cartridge overall length to feed,twist,etc,I may be wrong,but are there many workable loads over 270 gr in .444? Beware a .44 mag expanding bullet driven at .444 velocity will penetrate less than a .44 mag due to bullet expansion at higher velocity.
Ross Siefred thought enough of a hotrodded 45 colt in a Ruger Bisley with heavy cast bullets he went to Africa and killed a Cape buffalo with it.Maybe one person needs a light,handy serious rifle.I made a foam core/kevlar/glass stocked 21 in bbl lightweight .375 Taylor(necked .458).Muleabelle.
I sure do believe in having a bear gun in AK.I agree CNS is the quick kill.Generally that is protected by bone.Orthopedic damage is one way to slam the cns.Penetration and breaking things is good.Expanding in a white tail is not good.
A cut down ,slenderized 18 in bbl generic non collectable 8mm mauser loaded with 200 grain partitions will work.
I do believe in being well armed.Odds of a bear problem are small.You can make them much smaller by using good practice in bear country.Take that small percentage and think about it.Bear spray is a percentage.Not bad,and,it may just buy a few seconds,or not.
You could get too close to the bear's dead moose or surprise it or otherwise have an ambush pulled on you.Ambushes are bad.Sometimes,the bear wins.
But another percentage is the bear who won't leave.He may kill you in time,but if you had a 30-40 Krag you could place a shot.make your odds.A lot of infantry keep thier rifle with them all the time.
Dear HIBC, I believe you are simply ignoring the heavy, hard cast .44 magnum by Garret, Grizzly and Buffalo Bore which do have incredible penetration.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...ct_detail&p=54

The statistics you are quoting for the .444 are for older models. The current models do have a higher twist and can handle larger bullets than 270.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/444.asp

I use Buffalo Bore 335's for my bear defense. They have more than enough penetration at 3000 ft-pds of muzzle energy. With my medical conditions, I must manage recoil, the .444 with extra lead weight in the stock gives me that situation. Does it have the killing power of a .375, nope, but it is what I can handle well. The rest is shot placement.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=156

Last edited by Alaska444; March 12, 2011 at 03:49 PM.
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Old March 12, 2011, 04:01 PM   #43
HiBC
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I did not ignore heavy hardcast bullets.Read again.I said heavy hardcast bullets will penetrate well.I even said Ross Seifred went and killed a cape buffalo with a Ruger 45 Colt.My message was expanding bullets will not have the penetration.I carried a .44 Ruger Super Blackhawk loaded with heavy hard cast bullets while in AK.I also went to the museum in Fairbanks and studied the anatomy of brown bear looking at skulls,skeletal parts,and stuffed bears.From the tip of the nose,spongy bone in the sinus area leads right into the brain pan.Frontal,the tip of the nose is a good hit.Teeth,not so good.
I am building a Rolling Block in 50-90.I intend to use a 450 gr bullet driven by black powder to modest velocity to shoot a Bison.
.
I did not say your 444 was unsuitable,I asked the question if good penetration ammo could be had.
You go do whatever makes you happy.Good luck.
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Old March 12, 2011, 04:28 PM   #44
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Dear HIBC forgive me for overlooking your point on the hardcast bullets. I did miss that statement. Thank you for correcting me on that issue.

If I lived in Alaska, I would no doubt go with the 45/70 over my .444 despite the constraints on my left arm for recoil. However, I spend my time in Northern Idaho where there are grizzly, but not anywhere near as many as in Alaska. Black bear, mountain lion and the recently transplanted wolf are the most common predators with a few hundred grizzly total in the state compared to the density of grizzly bears in Alaska.

For me, the .444 gives me a a real thumper at the cost of a 20 ga recoil or pretty close to it when I compare the two. Once again, just fitting it to my own personal medical condition that limits the amount of recoil I can handle in my left arm.

I shoot the handgun one handed with my right hand for the same reason. I shot the .454 Casull last year one handed and it is not pleasant, but it was manageable. For my own situation, the .44 is capable of high powered, hard cast loads that get me right up to .454 Casull levels. That is why I am going with the .44 over the .454.

Once again, there are grizzly in Idaho, but very uncommon in the area I venture into. Black bear in Idaho tend to be quite a bit smaller than a lot of other areas so for my own purposes, I feel I am quite well armed. In the end analysis, it comes down to shot placement and penetration.

I appreciate your comments on the shot placement in the skull as well. The difficulty with the bears skull is more so in the shape where it is a very sloped and narrow angled bone. Many people wrongly believe the bullet just bounced off a bears skull failing to realize that they simply hit the soft tissue and fur above the actual skull. The nose is a great target if you can get a bead on it. The question comes down to be able to hit that target during a charge. In that situation, aiming COM is probably the best bet but give little chance of a CNS hit. I guess that brings us back to the luck factor spoken of before.

If I lived in Alaska again as in my youth, yup, give me the 45/70 over my .444 or even the .450 and I would just have to go with the higher recoil. Once again, just a matter of fitting the personal situation and maximizing all of the parameters. For that matter, in Idaho, I believe the .44 magnum is more than enough in camping situations where it is simply impractical to have a rifle slung over your shoulder at all times.

Just my own take on the situation. I readily understand a lot of folks feel the .44 magnum is inadequate, but what do we do in the situations where the rifle is impractical. Would people really NOT strap on a large bore handgun in that situation? Once again, it will then come down to shot placement and penetration, both of which when maximized, the .44 magnum is quite enough for the job in trained hands as you have so stated yourself in your posts above.

I wish you the best with the buffalo rifle, that sounds like quite a project with a lot of lead flying about when you get it finished. By the way, you can follow my link to the Buffalo Bore 335 gr ammo for a man who shot a "trophy" sized buffalo with one shot from his .444 under the reviews section.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=156

That is another whole can of worms, but .444 is an underestimated rifle as well based on the older models with the 1/38 rifling that did not have the ability to toss 300+gr bullets. The rifling is now 1/20 and they are very accurate rifles even with the 300+ gr bullets. I believe that some folks are able to handload up to 400 gr bullets for the .444 as well. So, putting the recoil issue into the equation, it does work for me personally.

Once again, I appreciate your input.

God bless,

Alaska

Last edited by Alaska444; March 12, 2011 at 04:45 PM.
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Old March 12, 2011, 05:26 PM   #45
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Dear HIBC, FYI, here is a reloading review article on the .444 in answer to your prior question on ammo available for the .444.

Quote:
For a rifle conceived as a short-range brush buster with 240-265 grain pistol bullets, this .444 Marlin cartridge certainly thrives on long, heavy bullets, and does so with target-rifle type accuracy to boot! I think it safe to say that the notion of .444 Marlin rifles not being capable of stabilizing any bullets over 310 grains, not being able to shoot cast bullets over 1600 fps. and being capable of "gallon jug" accuracy at a hundred yards can all be definitively and finally put to rest as mythology! For the woods wise hunter who limits himself to 200 yard shots at big game, this .444 Marlin cartridge, loaded with any of the above listed bullets is MORE than capable of harvesting anything in North America cleanly and decisively. The first time, every time, with properly placed shots.
Quote:
In summation, I would add that once loaded with bullets over 300 grains, the .444 Marlin begins to shine brightly as a superb big game rifle. Loaded with any of these loads, it would be a most welcomed camp companion when traveling in grizzly or moose territory, and gives up little in terms of stopping power or penetration to either the .45-70 Govt. or the new Marlin .450M. The accuracy potential of this gun over a wide variety of both bullet weights and nose designs lends it to remain America's Most Versatile Big-Bore
!

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech...h_notes.htm/28
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Old March 12, 2011, 11:55 PM   #46
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Hi fellas. Ok how about this, and maybe it has been done, I dont know. A canistor of pepper spray under the barrel of your firearm(what ever that may be) so you can stop or slow down the bear. That way if pepper spray works that well, your good but you have your gun to back that up. Sounds like a good idea to me. If im ever in big bear country, Im not trusting my rearend to any handgun, dont care what it is.
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Old March 13, 2011, 12:32 AM   #47
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This is just silly.

You're better off with a .45 acp... bigger bullet, bigger hole. It's like hitting him in the chest with a freight train.




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Old March 13, 2011, 02:53 PM   #48
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If I ever venture into the woods in Alaska, I think I'll just keep my rifle strapped to me at all times.
I agree that a rifle is preffered but try fighting a salmon with a rifle strapped to you. Lots of people bring rifles & shotguns fishing, they usually end up on the bank out of reach.
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Old March 13, 2011, 09:26 PM   #49
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My redhawk with 300 gr hard cast has shoot thru black bears from side to side and from front to back, thru both front shoulders on a moose, I guess they must be doing the job cause we've never recovered one.
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Old March 13, 2011, 09:50 PM   #50
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"This is just silly.

You're better off with a .45 acp... bigger bullet, bigger hole. It's like hitting him in the chest with a freight train."

The only thing wrong with this statement is almost all of it. I love my P220, and couldn't ask for a better duty weapon for thin skinned 2 legged predators, but against a full grown angry griz? The .44 mag has a lot more going for it.
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