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August 20, 2005, 08:23 PM | #51 | |||
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That's why animals mark their territory - it doesn't do anything to physically obstruct trespassers, not a fence, just a marker to claim territory, which has the benefit that most fights are avoided in this way - they do it to avoid potentially fatal combat (if they didn't mark it, they would run into the trespassers). Behaving recklessly would be genetically bred out, because it would result too often in death prior to breeding. Same thing with a wolf, or wolves... nobody likes the idea of dying, so if they have a choice, maybe they'll just find an easier meal somewhere else. In addition to the Great Pyranees, look also at German Shepherd, Akbash, Anatolian Shepherd... my understanding is that these dogs would not only run off wolves, but would on occasion, catch and kill them too. I am sure the wolves won at times. But if you have a few dogs that are very strong, fierce, and as big or bigger than the wolves, and they won't back down under any circumstances... getting past them is not an attractive or easy task for anyone to face. P.S. I found a link on the net regarding livestock guarding dogs: http://www.lgd.org/ (and notes from the USDA): http://www.lgd.org/usdafacts.html Note the section authored by the USDA that says: Quote:
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August 20, 2005, 09:13 PM | #52 | |
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Eradication, control, or leave 'em be. The argument among experts and laymen alike rages on, and it'll most likely continue for a long time. Majority thinking today is control, and I agree. But the real problem is how? I'm not refering to the mechanical means of hunting, etc.; I mean by what method do we establish a healthy balance? A number of models have been established over the years, and they, along with the outcome, vary. A few of the methods include...
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When we intervene in either direction, we'd better be damned sure that we have our ducks in a row, or the outcome could and most probably would be disasterous. http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2001/11/10.htm Any way you look at it, population dynamics is a highly complex, often argued and little understood (in spite of the reams of paper written on the subject.) area of study. Culling IS necessary, but the formula for doing so needs to be carefully thought out in advance, and not done with a "bull in a china shop" attitude. For those interested in seeing how predator / prey relationships work in general, the link below is to a working computer model of predator and prey populations over time. Cal would understand the math invovled more than I, but the graph is pretty easy to read. Just plug in the number of critters for prey and predator, set the duration time to 30, and hit start. http://dmpeli.math.mcmaster.ca/Matla...tor/index.html
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August 20, 2005, 09:24 PM | #53 | |||
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Rich:
So apparently, the guarding dogs are smarter than I thought - the following are some excerpts from the USDA material at:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/compani.../guarddogs.htm Quote:
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August 20, 2005, 10:45 PM | #54 |
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I've been trying to be gentle, but you are really killing me now. Look, what I've seen of ranching, especially cattle, doesn't lend itself to tight herds, lazily grazing on idyllic, lush hillsides or romatic cattle drives, where a couple of trusty dogs can contain, control and protect.....that's called a farm. They split up into relatively small groups, and disperse widely. They have to...the land would be described by most of us as "barren" and LOTS of it is needed to support a cow. Bounties weren't placed on wolves because it was fun to trap 'em or because of some unfounded fear of them carrying off children. It was done (and OVERDONE, in my opinion) because of the livestock cost. They're Pack Predators. They kill for food and sport.....continuously over their lives. Do you think there are no dogs on ranches? Do you believe your idea is the newfound answer that nobody has thought of? C'mon guy. Ranchers have been using dogs longer than they've been using fences. Now, if you want to discuss the difficulties of developing control formulas for wolves, be my guest. But it seems to me the individual States have done a pretty good job at same with all other manner of fish, fowl and wildlife. Every wheel you've suggested has already been invented. Rich
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August 20, 2005, 11:01 PM | #55 | ||
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Rich: No, I don't think guarding dogs are the whole answer. But at least according to the USDA, they have only begun to be employed in the US since the 1970s, about the time when the Feds dropped the bounties on predators. They are specific breeds that will actually do the job of guarding livestock, not just any old hound dog or family Lab.
According to the USDA at least, who I think have farmers and rancher's interests first and foremost in mind, livestock guarding dogs: Quote:
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August 20, 2005, 11:20 PM | #56 |
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OK, then.
.gov mandated repop of the wolf packs....I've no problem. But .gov should then provide the ranchers, free of charge, the guard dogs to protect their private property and livelihood from the threat .gov has mandated. Additionally, .gov should then provide for shoot-on-sight laws on all livestock and private property....I don't own a ranch, but perhaps my little Catahoula Leopard Cur is not up to the task of taking on half dozen 100 lb+ Wolves. But he has MORE moral right to survival and protection on my lands than the Wolves. The government should endorse this Policy because it would only be called into play when ***their*** guard dog solution ***fails***. Easy to win me over on that. CC- Coyotes are NOT Wolves. Completely different species, guy. They're Rabbit eaters, not Elk and Cow eaters. Would you imagine that, just maybe, they're a bit more easily run off? Do you hunt? Really? Rich
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August 20, 2005, 11:32 PM | #57 | ||
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August 20, 2005, 11:37 PM | #58 |
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rich, cc is just as entertaining over on the bear thread. i have hunted bears for many years, killed over 30. cc claims they are not agressive. Somebody should tell those black bears. in my experience a bb is more agressive then a brown. they are more crafty also. i shot one with my .45-70 and tore it's arm almost off. it barely stumbled and ran me up a tree. (the dogs ran interference) it tried to climb after me and i shot it downward through the shoulder and it excited out the hip. still took a few minutes before it would lay still and i shot it in the head with my .38
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August 20, 2005, 11:46 PM | #59 |
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Fair enough. We'll agree to disagree based on our divergent experience. Jeff- Be nice....please. Rich
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August 20, 2005, 11:57 PM | #60 |
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Sorry Cal, but I have to side with Rich on this one. Think about it: One dog of ANY breed against a PACK of wolves is no contest. Wolves are smart and have a great hunting strategy... teamwork. They'll run a moose in a circle, where the next wolf takes over... another circle, until said moose is tuckered out, and it's easy pickin's. A bull moose (or elk) is a damned site tougher than any one dog. I'm a staunch conservationist, but I'm also familiar with open range ranching. Sheep tend to stay in a tight bunch, where cattle usually spread out some. They'll stay in a herd, but it's a loose association, and a herd of 100 Hereford may spread out over a hundred acres, which is far more than one dog can patrol. Dogs used to protect sheep flocks are raised with sheep, but cattle won't tolerate a dog like that, so the protection instinct is much reduced. Even if there was more than one dog, and the protection instinct was there, a wolf pack is smart enough to create a diversion to distract the dogs, while a couple will slip in from the rear and take what they want. Ranchers and farmers today operate on a razor's edge between a successful operation and bankruptcy. I fear the smaller operations are doomed to extinction because of large "factory farms" and ranches. The family farm and ranch is the backbone of America, and losses to anything can make the difference between failure and success. I really want to see the wolves thrive, but not at the expense of generations of family ranchers.
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August 21, 2005, 12:02 AM | #61 | |
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August 21, 2005, 12:05 AM | #62 |
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Capt: If that's so, how do you explain what's in the USDA report on guarding dogs for ranchers? They seem to indicate they work quite well, and the USDA is definitely on the side of farmers and ranchers - they are their sheep.
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August 21, 2005, 12:17 AM | #63 |
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I honestly don't know, Cal. I'm going on almost 25 yrs. experience on a 4200 acre ranch that has both cattle and sheep. I'm also going on 5 yrs. experience of patroling NPS, Forest Service, and BLM land, and my studies of wolf predation, but I confess I have no hand's-on experience with wolves facing livestock.
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August 21, 2005, 12:32 AM | #64 |
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Capt: Well, I have definitely heard of wolves killing and eating family pets, but a Great Pyranees is no Schnauzer. They are bigger than the wolves and are bred to be absolutely fearless. If you get two or three, they become more imposing.
I've observed animals in conflict directly both personally, and on nature films, and the one who would win if it came down to a life or death fight, doesn't always win in a standoff. The reason is that most animals don't want to risk death if it's avoidable, so they don't get into that life and death fight... there's some posturing, bluffing, false attacks, and usually one side just backs down. That's what the USDA report seems to indicate as well, at least when I read it, they are not describing fights to the death as the norm, whether the dogs are the stronger, or the weaker of the two adversaries - the dogs press, and usually it ends with no fight at all.
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August 21, 2005, 12:37 AM | #65 |
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CarbineCaleb, we are talking about a group of several 100+ pound predators that can take down an 800 hundred pound moose using a deliberate and coordinated attack.
a Pyrenees isn't going to stand much of a chance, especially when viewed as competition.
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August 21, 2005, 12:44 AM | #66 |
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redhawk: I'll pose the same question to you that I did to Captain Charlie then - why does the USDA write this in their report then? And why do they write that the guarding dogs normally run off black bear, who surely average at least twice their size, and can be four times their size? Why do wolves normally avoid humans, who after all, physically at least, are less capable than the Pyrenees? For that matter, why was I able to stop a charging black bear, using only my voice? I don't think you can just boil this down to who is stronger, because thought guides the animal, not just muscle - and that thought can make him avoid risk.
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August 21, 2005, 02:27 AM | #67 | |
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Did you not read Capt Charlie's post? Great Pyrenees. Wonderful "what if". Put it into practice. Who will PAY for all those Great Pyrenees for the ranchers? Who will pay for their feed and medical? This is silly, CC. We've presented that the Wolf CAN exist in North America, assuming we allow sensible control as with all other game and predators. We've demonstrated the result of the current US policy in Alberta. Yet, every response you offer supports that exact same "can't we all just get along" philosophy. "Don't bother the Wolves and they won't bother you". Doncha get it, guy? Wolves, unchecked by predation do not just "get along". They cause very real damage to hard working families just like yours. And flock dogs will not control their numbers; they'll only push them onto the next herd of another hard working family. You wanna photograph Wolves? You should absolutely have that opportunity. But not at the expense of "endangering" the Elk herds...and certainly not on Capt Charlie's ranch or in my back yard. I don't personally want a Great Pyrennes....I simply want to enjoy my paid for lands in peace. Let landowners protect their lands and there will still be plenty of Wolves for you to photograph, if you've a mind. Rich
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August 21, 2005, 07:26 AM | #68 |
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"Americans have used guarding dogs since the mid-1970's."
Gosh, I'm glad there's no chauvinism within the USDA! Folks along the Tex-Mex border have been using guarding dogs with their goat herds as long as they've had goat herds. I'm pretty sure those folks are Americans. It's not all that common, but a coyote family group with nearly-growns will take out a guard dog and enjoy fresh cabrito. A coyote pack is adept at working together. That's why a lot of the goat herds are accompanied by two guarding dogs. Losses are reduced, though; not avoided. Goats, however, aren't as valuable as cows or horses. Anytime a Pyrenees drives off a pack of wolves, I'd lay odds that pack wasn't hungry. If they were hungry, the pack would split: Some would have a conversation with the guard dog while the others prepared supper. Dot-gov is good at avoiding responsibility, and in this instance gets away with it because of public emotions wherein the rancher is somehow unimportant, if not portrayed as some sort of bad guy. I've heard these comments while at a steakhouse restaurant...Still, by the standards by which I've lived my own life, the introduction of a predator into livestock country places the onus on those so doing. Art |
August 21, 2005, 11:28 AM | #69 | ||||
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I don't consider these very radical ideas, but they are definitely at odds with some of the statements made here. Thanks for at least engaging in some dialogue, anyway.
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August 21, 2005, 12:16 PM | #70 | ||||
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CarbineCaleb, i apologize but the folks that deal face-to-face on a daily basis with the wolves get real sick and tired of folks like you that live a long ways away from wolves telling them how to live their lives and run their businesses. I implore you to head out west and spend some time with a few ranchers and guides and see first hand what these wolves are capable of. talk to the people that are affected directly by wolf reintroduction and maybe you will understand. maybe not, because in the end you will get to leave and return to your city where you will remain unaffected by that which you imagine as so harmless.
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August 21, 2005, 12:58 PM | #71 | |
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Define some compromise An operation like King Ranch in TX can absorb some loss, but the smaller family operations? Chickens and even sheep go really cheap at auction, but cattle? The loss of one cow and calf may not break a ranch, but it will definitely put a dent in the wallet. The loss of 5 or 6 over a year will mean a lean year for that family. I REALLY like being able to go to Yellowstone or Isle Royale and listen to the wolves, and watch them interact, and I want that to continue. I want future generations to be able to experience it also. Wolves had a place on this planet long before we came along, and should continue to do so. But we do too. It will all boil down to a very sad choice eventually. Planet Earth is finite. Populations aren't. Who will have to go? Realistically, we all know the answer to that question. If we go whole hog to re-establish wolf populations, we'll alienate the very people who's support we need to keep the wolf. If we control them and keep losses to a minimum, public sentiment might just lean towards keeping them around a little bit longer.
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August 21, 2005, 01:08 PM | #72 | ||
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Redhawk:
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On my travels in Canada, I can tell you that the attitudes towards predators and animals in general are quite different (on average, of course both countries have much variety in opinion). Up there, people are much more familiar with animals, more comfortable with them, and more savvy about how to interact with them... and yes, they laugh at Americans in this regard. Redhawk: Quote:
Redhawk - you just can't accept that someone who understands animals thinks differently than you. Yes, I know that predators have great strength. Yes, I know that on rare occasions, they will without provocation attack and kill people - that's not news to me though. I knew that back in high school. I also know that even deer have killed people when they feel threatened - not news to me either. I am not "naive" in this regard. But I understand the animals enough to be comfortable in their presence, and I understand the risks, neither minimizing, nor exaggerating them. I just have a different mindset - I identify quite closely with a wildlife biologist or a naturalist. For instance when Jeff Troop "proved" how aggressive black bears were by telling his story of an attack after he shot it... I think, "Hmmm, so all you did was start in to killing this critter, and he attacked you? How aggressive he is! ". In his mind, that's an aggressive animal - it attacks you when you shoot it. In my mind, trying to kill something is provocation in the extreme.
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August 21, 2005, 01:21 PM | #73 |
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Capt: As to the meaning of the word "compromise" - I'd agree, that's where the majority of the issue is. For people who say that reintroducing wolves is crazy, I'd say that they by definition do not believe that humans and predators can coexist.
As to terms of the compromise, I don't have a single magic answer. Some useful ingredients that currently are partially, but not consistently or wholeheartedly applied might be:
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August 21, 2005, 01:37 PM | #74 |
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cc you play the victim of snide remarks on one thread and then come over here and make snide remarks. you are doing nothing more then trolling. period. you seem to take delight in playing the devils advocate on numerous threads. can't believe others haven't called you on it.
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August 21, 2005, 01:42 PM | #75 | |
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PETA is a naturalist organization. Ducks Unlimited is a conservation organization. For the sake of hunters and wild animals, I like DU's approach far better. Rich
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