Kel-Tec Sub 2000 Gen 2 for Defense?

Model12Win · October 10, 2015, 03:44 PM

So I've been thinking about buying a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 carbine in 9mm for some time now, and it looks like they've come out with a Gen 2 version of this weapon that has several notable imporvements over the older ones:

https://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/sub-2000/rifle/

I am wondering what you guys think of using this as a defensive carbine? Hear me out first before you respond.

I think this weapon has some notable advantages over an AR-15 platform rifle. No, it doesn't hit as hard as an AR-15 but the 16" barrel of this carbine adds about 25-30% more muzzle energy to the 9mm ammunition used due to increased velocity over use in a handgun. With some 9mm +P loads the carbine's barrel produces energy near that of a .357 magnum revolver. That's a nice bonus, but still isn't as powerful as an AR or AK, and certainly not as powerful as an HK G3 or other .308 battle rifle.

But I ask you... can you stick one of those rifles into a laptop bag, briefcase or backpack? Perhaps you can- if you disassemble them first. Even then, is your AR upper 16" long? Probably not. When folded, the Sub 2000 carbine is 16.25" long. Not only that, but it can be made to fire in only a few seconds by unfolding it, flipping up the rear sight, and working the charging handle. With an AR or similar gun, you're going to have to line up pins and holes, potentially during a stressful scenario, and you're still not going to have as short or compact of a package as you would with a folded Sub 2000.

Not only that, but the Sub 2000 weighs just over 4 lbs. That is very, very light. I don't know of any AR or other .223/5.56mm rifle that weighs that much. Not only can a Sub 2000 fit into a smaller space as any other long gun you can think of, it also is lighter than almost anything else out there that is reasonably powerful enough for the purpose of self defense... and as we discussed above, the Sub 2000 is no slouch when it comes to velocity or energy and can be had in .40 S&W if you are so inclined or have a CCW pistol chambered in the same cartridge.

And that brings us to magazine compatibility. The Sub 2000 is available in a number of versions that can accept many large manufacturer's magazines. The most well known version are ones designed to use Glock magazines, but version able to accept Beretta, Smith and Wesson and other magazines exist. If you carry any of these guns for self defense, a Sub 2000 will not only be able to share the same ammunition as your carry pistol, but the same ammunition as well.

So aside from the improved ballistics the Sub 2000 carbine offers, why would you want to carry it vs just using your pistol? I'll tell you why: hit probability. With the handgun, hit probability depends on the user's ability to line up a sight radius a few inches long, with only one point of contact (the hands) on the weapon in order to control recoil and steadiness. Most of us know that if you lock your Glock down into a shooting vice, it will make a fist sized group at 100 yards all day with half way decent ammunition. However, very few of us out there can keep a handgun steady enough to do this in the real world.

Enter the carbine. With the Sub 2000, you now have three points of contact on the weapon (hands in two different positions, shoulder, and cheek) which dramatically increases control over the firearm. With an increase in sight radius, which is easily triple that of a pistol, the shooter is able to much more precisely place the sights on target. What this all equals is that the average shooter is able to place more firepower on target, faster and with better precision, as they would be able to with the handgun alone. The effective range of this carbine is usually considered to be between 100-150 meters, vs the 50 meter effective range of the typical service handgun. And, if either the handgun or carbine is rendered inoperable during a firefight, both platforms can share the same ammunition and magazines.

So that is why I think the Kel-Tec Sub 2000 is a great defensive carbine. It won't hit as hard as an AR-15 or AK-47, won't have the range of your Remington 700, but it is a sure improvement over the handgun alone... and much like the handgun, it can come with you almost anywhere where something as small as a laptop case or even lunchbox would be appropriate. It's light weight makes it easy to carry as well. I should also mention that these guns operate on a simple blowback action, and are known to be very reliable and will feed quality hollow point ammunition very nicely.

So what do you think of the Sub 2000?

Thanks for reading guys. M12 out.

Captains1911 · October 10, 2015, 06:23 PM

I think you have made more than enough points to convince yourself.

I own a Gen2 Sub 2000 for similar reasons and really like it. The portability and compatibility with Glock mags, including the 33 rounders, are very appealing to me.

Just a side note, the rear sight flips up on its own when the rifle is unfolded.

Nakanokalronin · October 10, 2015, 08:29 PM

I really like my 1st Gen G17 model and will not sell it, but if I bought one today it would be a Gen2. I could simply add an M-lok rail instead of a MOE rail piece to the factory forend, leave the sight alone instead of adding metal sight screws & a metal fiber optic front sight blade and just adjust the stock instead of adding a factory stock extension.

Mine is very accurate and 100% reliable with any weight or brand of ammo. Would I use one for HD? Yes. Would it make a great backpack or travel gun? Yes. Is having a long gun that uses the same easy to find mags as a Glock you might own? Yes.

drobs · October 11, 2015, 01:05 AM

Looks like a fun gun.
I've fired the 40SW version and only beef with it was it wouldn't function unless held tightly to the shoulder. Once you learned that it was good to go.

As far as compactness?

I can get my under folding stock AK or side folding stock AK into a duffel bag or tennis racquet case. http://tinyurl.com/pp5f5xu

My folding Arm Brace equipped AK Pistol is even shorter:

Both can be fired with the stocks folded or in a matter of seconds the stocks / arm braces can be unfolded.

5.11 now makes backpack that will fit some AR pistols:

http://www.511tactical.com/select-carry-sling-pack.html

When I lived in Illinois - cased and unloaded was the rule for firearms. Illinois finally has CCW but long guns still need to be cased and unloaded when not being used for hunting etc.

Missouri - no case needed for a long gun. Long guns can be loaded in a vehicle. Would I recommend walking around with a long gun uncased. No, but I've done it - walking to and from my car to the gun shop.

Nakanokalronin · October 11, 2015, 09:53 AM

I have a Yugo UF I built years ago that is indeed compact when the stock is folded, but it's nowhere near as light and flat as a Sub2K if you're carrying one in a pack or trying to store it in a limited amount of space. If rifle rounds are what somebody wanted then they could check out the SU-16 which is only a half pound heavier than a Sub2K. I've been meaning to pick one of those up for awhile now, but as usual KT is slow to produce any of their long guns.

Onward Allusion · October 11, 2015, 10:07 AM

So, I guess you're getting one, eh?

BigMikey76 · October 13, 2015, 08:58 AM

Quote:

something as small as a laptop case or even lunchbox would be appropriate

A lunch box!? How much do you pack for lunch?

Seriously, though, I most definitely agree with your many points. The Sub2000 gen2 is on my short list, and, as long as I can convince my wife it is a good idea, I will have one some day.

October 10, 2015, 03:44 PM	#1
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Kel-Tec Sub 2000 Gen 2 for Defense? So I've been thinking about buying a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 carbine in 9mm for some time now, and it looks like they've come out with a Gen 2 version of this weapon that has several notable imporvements over the older ones: https://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/sub-2000/rifle/ I am wondering what you guys think of using this as a defensive carbine? Hear me out first before you respond. I think this weapon has some notable advantages over an AR-15 platform rifle. No, it doesn't hit as hard as an AR-15 but the 16" barrel of this carbine adds about 25-30% more muzzle energy to the 9mm ammunition used due to increased velocity over use in a handgun. With some 9mm +P loads the carbine's barrel produces energy near that of a .357 magnum revolver. That's a nice bonus, but still isn't as powerful as an AR or AK, and certainly not as powerful as an HK G3 or other .308 battle rifle. But I ask you... can you stick one of those rifles into a laptop bag, briefcase or backpack? Perhaps you can- if you disassemble them first. Even then, is your AR upper 16" long? Probably not. When folded, the Sub 2000 carbine is 16.25" long. Not only that, but it can be made to fire in only a few seconds by unfolding it, flipping up the rear sight, and working the charging handle. With an AR or similar gun, you're going to have to line up pins and holes, potentially during a stressful scenario, and you're still not going to have as short or compact of a package as you would with a folded Sub 2000. Not only that, but the Sub 2000 weighs just over 4 lbs. That is very, very light. I don't know of any AR or other .223/5.56mm rifle that weighs that much. Not only can a Sub 2000 fit into a smaller space as any other long gun you can think of, it also is lighter than almost anything else out there that is reasonably powerful enough for the purpose of self defense... and as we discussed above, the Sub 2000 is no slouch when it comes to velocity or energy and can be had in .40 S&W if you are so inclined or have a CCW pistol chambered in the same cartridge. And that brings us to magazine compatibility. The Sub 2000 is available in a number of versions that can accept many large manufacturer's magazines. The most well known version are ones designed to use Glock magazines, but version able to accept Beretta, Smith and Wesson and other magazines exist. If you carry any of these guns for self defense, a Sub 2000 will not only be able to share the same ammunition as your carry pistol, but the same ammunition as well. So aside from the improved ballistics the Sub 2000 carbine offers, why would you want to carry it vs just using your pistol? I'll tell you why: hit probability. With the handgun, hit probability depends on the user's ability to line up a sight radius a few inches long, with only one point of contact (the hands) on the weapon in order to control recoil and steadiness. Most of us know that if you lock your Glock down into a shooting vice, it will make a fist sized group at 100 yards all day with half way decent ammunition. However, very few of us out there can keep a handgun steady enough to do this in the real world. Enter the carbine. With the Sub 2000, you now have three points of contact on the weapon (hands in two different positions, shoulder, and cheek) which dramatically increases control over the firearm. With an increase in sight radius, which is easily triple that of a pistol, the shooter is able to much more precisely place the sights on target. What this all equals is that the average shooter is able to place more firepower on target, faster and with better precision, as they would be able to with the handgun alone. The effective range of this carbine is usually considered to be between 100-150 meters, vs the 50 meter effective range of the typical service handgun. And, if either the handgun or carbine is rendered inoperable during a firefight, both platforms can share the same ammunition and magazines. So that is why I think the Kel-Tec Sub 2000 is a great defensive carbine. It won't hit as hard as an AR-15 or AK-47, won't have the range of your Remington 700, but it is a sure improvement over the handgun alone... and much like the handgun, it can come with you almost anywhere where something as small as a laptop case or even lunchbox would be appropriate. It's light weight makes it easy to carry as well. I should also mention that these guns operate on a simple blowback action, and are known to be very reliable and will feed quality hollow point ammunition very nicely. So what do you think of the Sub 2000? Thanks for reading guys. M12 out.

October 11, 2015, 10:07 AM	#6
Onward Allusion Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2009 Location: Back in a Non-Free State Posts: 3,133	So, I guess you're getting one, eh? __________________ Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying

October 10, 2015, 06:23 PM	#2
Captains1911 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: West of the Blue Ridge, VA Posts: 684	I think you have made more than enough points to convince yourself. I own a Gen2 Sub 2000 for similar reasons and really like it. The portability and compatibility with Glock mags, including the 33 rounders, are very appealing to me. Just a side note, the rear sight flips up on its own when the rifle is unfolded.

October 10, 2015, 08:29 PM	#3
Nakanokalronin Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2006 Posts: 1,066	I really like my 1st Gen G17 model and will not sell it, but if I bought one today it would be a Gen2. I could simply add an M-lok rail instead of a MOE rail piece to the factory forend, leave the sight alone instead of adding metal sight screws & a metal fiber optic front sight blade and just adjust the stock instead of adding a factory stock extension. Mine is very accurate and 100% reliable with any weight or brand of ammo. Would I use one for HD? Yes. Would it make a great backpack or travel gun? Yes. Is having a long gun that uses the same easy to find mags as a Glock you might own? Yes.

October 11, 2015, 01:05 AM	#4
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	Looks like a fun gun. I've fired the 40SW version and only beef with it was it wouldn't function unless held tightly to the shoulder. Once you learned that it was good to go. As far as compactness? I can get my under folding stock AK or side folding stock AK into a duffel bag or tennis racquet case. http://tinyurl.com/pp5f5xu My folding Arm Brace equipped AK Pistol is even shorter: Both can be fired with the stocks folded or in a matter of seconds the stocks / arm braces can be unfolded. 5.11 now makes backpack that will fit some AR pistols: http://www.511tactical.com/select-carry-sling-pack.html When I lived in Illinois - cased and unloaded was the rule for firearms. Illinois finally has CCW but long guns still need to be cased and unloaded when not being used for hunting etc. Missouri - no case needed for a long gun. Long guns can be loaded in a vehicle. Would I recommend walking around with a long gun uncased. No, but I've done it - walking to and from my car to the gun shop.

October 11, 2015, 09:53 AM	#5
Nakanokalronin Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2006 Posts: 1,066	I have a Yugo UF I built years ago that is indeed compact when the stock is folded, but it's nowhere near as light and flat as a Sub2K if you're carrying one in a pack or trying to store it in a limited amount of space. If rifle rounds are what somebody wanted then they could check out the SU-16 which is only a half pound heavier than a Sub2K. I've been meaning to pick one of those up for awhile now, but as usual KT is slow to produce any of their long guns.