The Big Four....

Dave McC · October 25, 2002, 05:03 AM

The pump shotgun is a uniquely American invention.A serendipitous combination of reliability,effectivenss and low cost, these stamped metal contraptions are the baseline shotgun for most folks and a darn good choice for most.

Currently, there's four US made pumps, all of good repute. Here's a little compare/contrast info for folks getting into shotguns to use.

Presented in no particular order...

The Ithaca 37.....

Has been around since 1937, hence the name. The design was used before then by Remington as the Model 17, developed from a John Moses Browning patent. Lots of 37s are still found in cruisers, and they were esteemed in the jungle by infantrymen in the Nam Mess. The Deerslayer variant was the first dedicated slug gun.Popular with southpaws.

Downside, limited aftermarket stuff and the bottom loading feature makes it hard to tell if the action's open and safe on the range. They're also a bit more pricey.A steel receiver and great workmanship mean it'll last a very long time if maintained well.

The Mossberg 500 series....

Has been around since the 60's, an attempt to take over the 870's market share by doing all the 870 does but costing less.

The alloy receiver means a slightly lighter weapon, the tang safety means easy operation sinistrally,and the low cost helps make it popular.

The 590 and 835 series shotguns are derivative and what applies to the 500 also applies to the others with some exceptions. The 835 has an overbored bbl and 3 1/2" capability.

Downside. the alloy receiver may not last as long as a steel one.Unless you're a high volume shooter, say over 2K shells a year, wearing one out may take more than one generation of shooting.

The Remington 870....

Is the most popular civilian firearm ever made, with over 8 million out there. It was brought out in 1950 to be as smooth and reliable as the Model 12 Winchester and Remington 31, but made with stamped parts instead of machined ones for a much lower cost. 870s are famed for longevity and reliability. More aftermarket stuff is available than the rest combined. Probably 90% of the LE shotguns in the US are 870s.

Downside, QC has slipped at Remington in recent years. The older ones seem to be made better than newer ones, and the PC decisions to add a locking safety and to dimple the mag tube were made by lawyers, not shotgunners. New 870s are good shotguns, the older 870s are great ones.Upside to the downside, with 8 million made,there's lots of Cinderella 870s out there waiting for Prince Charming.

The Winchester 1300...

Was developed from the 1200 brought out to replace the model 12 when it was deemed the 12 cost too much to make. An alloy frame makes this one of the lighter pumps,and Winchester claims incredibly fast cycling.1300 owners are a devoted lot.

Downside, the 1200 failed to hold up to hold up under institutional conditions for my old agency, the MD Dept of Corrections. Those better maintained seem to be as reliable as any other shotgun, same for the 1300.The few I've fired have done all I asked.

A few things apply to all of the Big Four....

All are available with short bbls for HD and/or deer hunting.All are effective for same,in trained cool hands.

All can be had with choke tubes for versatility.

Same for 3" magnum capability, some for 3 1/2".

All will last a very long time with care. For every shotgun worn out by shooting, 100 are junked from neglect and abuse.

All can be fit to a particular shooter with little trouble by changing the stock. On pumps, this can be done by shimming between the receiver and the stock.

All weigh between 7 and 7 1/2 lbs in field models.

All can do just about any shotgun job if we do ours.

Hope this helps....

Omaha-BeenGlockin · October 25, 2002, 09:36 AM

Benelli NOVA??????

Hasn't the Nova pretty much pushed the Ithaca out of the number #4 spot??

Is Ithaca even still in business??

I mean---I haven't seen a NIB Ithaca sitting in a gunshop in ages.

Tropical Z · October 25, 2002, 12:06 PM

Excellent post! Thanx

Frenchy · October 25, 2002, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Is Ithaca even still in business??

Indeed it is!

ITHACAGUN

**4V50 Gary** · October 25, 2002, 09:59 PM

Well done Dave!

Dave McC · October 26, 2002, 06:05 AM

Thanks, folks...

OBG, there's a couple small things that keep the Nova off this list.

It's not US made.

It's not been available long enough to show it's a classic.Combined with that,the total production's not big enough yet to indicate any latent probs.

TTBOMK, it's only available as a 12 gauge.

I like the Nova. The forearm rattle needs to be cleaned up, the trigger needs the same(So do many examples of the Big 4) but by and large it seems to be an excellent tool. Ask me again about this in a decade or so.

Note the Browning BPS isn't on the list either.

Note also that all of the Big 4 have plenty of used examples out there, quite suitable for use and costing less. A used Big 4 shotgun is quite cost effective. A police turnin, closet gun, etc, can oft be acquired for less than $250 that will give several lifetimes of reliable service.

Tropical Z · October 27, 2002, 04:01 PM

I had people ridicule me when i picked a Mossberg 500 over the 870,but i'm glad i got the Mossie.

Poodleshooter · October 27, 2002, 05:31 PM

Don't believe the Ithaca is still around? Go to a gunshow in upstate NY. My dad said he'd never seen so many mdl 37's in one place. They have a place of honor for many deerhunters in the empire state.
My Mossberg 500 is on it's second generation (me!)
Though it may be heresy to mention it here, I have never wanted to buy another shotgun. My mossy and 3 barrels does everything I need a scattergun to do.
Good tribute to the great ones,Dave.

Dave McC · October 28, 2002, 05:15 AM

TZ, those that ridiculed you for picking the Mossie have their heads, well never mind. Any of the Big 4 are excellent choices.

PS, thanks. As for your loyalty to Mossies, it's sounds like mine for 870s. I could do all I do with two 870s, no extra bbls. And the only reason I'd need two is I like a peep sight for slugs and "Serious" work.

**Mike Irwin** · October 28, 2002, 11:58 PM

I thought the Browning BPS was made in the United States?

Dave McC · October 29, 2002, 04:41 AM

Mike, TTBOMK it's made overseas. Even if made here, it's not often thought of as a entry level pumpgun due to its cost and relative rareness.

I started this thread to serve as a guide for folks not really cognizant about shotguns who wished to get into shotgunning. All of the Big Four will do just about anything possible, and will serve for a long time, like generations.

Of course, as people get used to shotgunning, they can take it anywhere they want, to doubles, autos, etc. But, any shotgun battery lacking one of the Big Four is not as versatile as it could be.

siggy2 · March 4, 2005, 10:48 PM

i hear if pound those mossberg and novas into the ground up to the trigger guard they hold coonhounds in place

imagine that

grey_pilgrim · March 5, 2005, 08:58 PM

I think even if the bps was made in the US, i still wouldn't classify it as a "great". IMO, it is a great sg (i shot a 20 ga version for years), but it just doesn't have the track record that the '37 does.

October 25, 2002, 05:03 AM	#1
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	The Big Four.... The pump shotgun is a uniquely American invention.A serendipitous combination of reliability,effectivenss and low cost, these stamped metal contraptions are the baseline shotgun for most folks and a darn good choice for most. Currently, there's four US made pumps, all of good repute. Here's a little compare/contrast info for folks getting into shotguns to use. Presented in no particular order... The Ithaca 37..... Has been around since 1937, hence the name. The design was used before then by Remington as the Model 17, developed from a John Moses Browning patent. Lots of 37s are still found in cruisers, and they were esteemed in the jungle by infantrymen in the Nam Mess. The Deerslayer variant was the first dedicated slug gun.Popular with southpaws. Downside, limited aftermarket stuff and the bottom loading feature makes it hard to tell if the action's open and safe on the range. They're also a bit more pricey.A steel receiver and great workmanship mean it'll last a very long time if maintained well. The Mossberg 500 series.... Has been around since the 60's, an attempt to take over the 870's market share by doing all the 870 does but costing less. The alloy receiver means a slightly lighter weapon, the tang safety means easy operation sinistrally,and the low cost helps make it popular. The 590 and 835 series shotguns are derivative and what applies to the 500 also applies to the others with some exceptions. The 835 has an overbored bbl and 3 1/2" capability. Downside. the alloy receiver may not last as long as a steel one.Unless you're a high volume shooter, say over 2K shells a year, wearing one out may take more than one generation of shooting. The Remington 870.... Is the most popular civilian firearm ever made, with over 8 million out there. It was brought out in 1950 to be as smooth and reliable as the Model 12 Winchester and Remington 31, but made with stamped parts instead of machined ones for a much lower cost. 870s are famed for longevity and reliability. More aftermarket stuff is available than the rest combined. Probably 90% of the LE shotguns in the US are 870s. Downside, QC has slipped at Remington in recent years. The older ones seem to be made better than newer ones, and the PC decisions to add a locking safety and to dimple the mag tube were made by lawyers, not shotgunners. New 870s are good shotguns, the older 870s are great ones.Upside to the downside, with 8 million made,there's lots of Cinderella 870s out there waiting for Prince Charming. The Winchester 1300... Was developed from the 1200 brought out to replace the model 12 when it was deemed the 12 cost too much to make. An alloy frame makes this one of the lighter pumps,and Winchester claims incredibly fast cycling.1300 owners are a devoted lot. Downside, the 1200 failed to hold up to hold up under institutional conditions for my old agency, the MD Dept of Corrections. Those better maintained seem to be as reliable as any other shotgun, same for the 1300.The few I've fired have done all I asked. A few things apply to all of the Big Four.... All are available with short bbls for HD and/or deer hunting.All are effective for same,in trained cool hands. All can be had with choke tubes for versatility. Same for 3" magnum capability, some for 3 1/2". All will last a very long time with care. For every shotgun worn out by shooting, 100 are junked from neglect and abuse. All can be fit to a particular shooter with little trouble by changing the stock. On pumps, this can be done by shimming between the receiver and the stock. All weigh between 7 and 7 1/2 lbs in field models. All can do just about any shotgun job if we do ours. Hope this helps....

October 25, 2002, 09:36 AM	#2
Omaha-BeenGlockin Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2001 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 1,183	Benelli NOVA?????? Hasn't the Nova pretty much pushed the Ithaca out of the number #4 spot?? Is Ithaca even still in business?? I mean---I haven't seen a NIB Ithaca sitting in a gunshop in ages. __________________ I take the leech that's bleeding me Can't stop to save my soul I take the leash that's leading me -------Metallica Last edited by Omaha-BeenGlockin; October 25, 2002 at 11:49 AM.

October 25, 2002, 12:06 PM	#3
Tropical Z Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Location: Atlantis Posts: 1,683	Excellent post! Thanx __________________ FREEDOM IS NEVER FREE!!!!!!!

October 25, 2002, 09:59 PM	#5
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	Well done Dave! __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

October 27, 2002, 04:01 PM	#7
Tropical Z Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Location: Atlantis Posts: 1,683	I had people ridicule me when i picked a Mossberg 500 over the 870,but i'm glad i got the Mossie. __________________ FREEDOM IS NEVER FREE!!!!!!!

October 26, 2002, 06:05 AM	#6
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Thanks, folks... OBG, there's a couple small things that keep the Nova off this list. It's not US made. It's not been available long enough to show it's a classic.Combined with that,the total production's not big enough yet to indicate any latent probs. TTBOMK, it's only available as a 12 gauge. I like the Nova. The forearm rattle needs to be cleaned up, the trigger needs the same(So do many examples of the Big 4) but by and large it seems to be an excellent tool. Ask me again about this in a decade or so. Note the Browning BPS isn't on the list either. Note also that all of the Big 4 have plenty of used examples out there, quite suitable for use and costing less. A used Big 4 shotgun is quite cost effective. A police turnin, closet gun, etc, can oft be acquired for less than $250 that will give several lifetimes of reliable service.

October 27, 2002, 05:31 PM	#8
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	Don't believe the Ithaca is still around? Go to a gunshow in upstate NY. My dad said he'd never seen so many mdl 37's in one place. They have a place of honor for many deerhunters in the empire state. My Mossberg 500 is on it's second generation (me!) Though it may be heresy to mention it here, I have never wanted to buy another shotgun. My mossy and 3 barrels does everything I need a scattergun to do. Good tribute to the great ones,Dave.

October 28, 2002, 05:15 AM	#9
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	TZ, those that ridiculed you for picking the Mossie have their heads, well never mind. Any of the Big 4 are excellent choices. PS, thanks. As for your loyalty to Mossies, it's sounds like mine for 870s. I could do all I do with two 870s, no extra bbls. And the only reason I'd need two is I like a peep sight for slugs and "Serious" work.

October 28, 2002, 11:58 PM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I thought the Browning BPS was made in the United States? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 29, 2002, 04:41 AM	#11
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Mike, TTBOMK it's made overseas. Even if made here, it's not often thought of as a entry level pumpgun due to its cost and relative rareness. I started this thread to serve as a guide for folks not really cognizant about shotguns who wished to get into shotgunning. All of the Big Four will do just about anything possible, and will serve for a long time, like generations. Of course, as people get used to shotgunning, they can take it anywhere they want, to doubles, autos, etc. But, any shotgun battery lacking one of the Big Four is not as versatile as it could be.

March 4, 2005, 10:48 PM	#12
siggy2 Member Join Date: March 4, 2005 Posts: 16	i hear if pound those mossberg and novas into the ground up to the trigger guard they hold coonhounds in place imagine that

March 5, 2005, 08:58 PM	#13
grey_pilgrim Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2004 Location: mid-atlantic Posts: 352	I think even if the bps was made in the US, i still wouldn't classify it as a "great". IMO, it is a great sg (i shot a 20 ga version for years), but it just doesn't have the track record that the '37 does. __________________ Cheers, Dave