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September 9, 2011, 09:31 AM | #51 | |
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September 9, 2011, 09:34 AM | #52 |
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DNS, did you somehow miss 2), which was right after 1)?
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September 9, 2011, 03:58 PM | #53 | |
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Is like talking to a child that just wont listen. I posted I use a larger caliber but if a 22 was all I had......broken record..... Did I mention I like a 45 1911? I know, I know, it doesnt hold 15plus rounds.... |
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September 9, 2011, 04:47 PM | #54 | ||||||
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All of us are agreed that in an emergency, one should use what he has. And if a .22 is all that he had to work with, he's going to need to use it and hopefully find a way to make effective use of it. But if one can make a choice and pick something bigger than a .22, a .22 is not necessarily the best idea. Quote:
Are you trying to say that in an emergency, if a .22 is all that's at hand, one would have to use that and could, with skill, make decent use of it? If so, we can all agree on that. But are you also trying to say that a .22 could be a good choice for a gun intended to be used for personal defense? If so, then several of us don't agree (at least absent special circumstances like serious recoil sensitivity or various disabilities), and we've explained why. |
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September 10, 2011, 05:04 AM | #55 |
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'Shot placement is what matters.'
Shot placement is what matters. But, when we say this we are also assuming quite a few things are understood. Like the fact that we are using handguns that generate ~400 to 530 ft/lbs of energy (Just a range of muzzle energy stats I have found from 9mm to .45 ACP without going into .45 super). Shot placement clearly doesn't matter if we are shooting spit wads or if they are wearing tank armor *face palm*. So we are also assuming we aren't shooting people in their vests (chest, chest, head anyone?) 'So why don't you use a .22?' Well a .22 doesn't have the same energy as a 9mm. We are simply claiming that the difference in energy between the 9mm and the .45 ACP is negligible and the extra capacity and lower recoil are tangible, factual advantages. Putting a little extra energy in the same hole really doesn't affect anything and it has been proven that penetration is equivalent between the .45 ACP and the 9mm. It's a fact that bullets delivered by handguns kill through blood loss and damage to vital organs. Only bullets delivered at energy levels on par with rifles start to kill through less precise means (hydrostatic shock) because the amount of energy delivered to the target is so phenomenal. Muzzle energy: .50 BMG: ~14,000 ft/lbs 5.56x45mm: ~1,300 ft/lbs .44 Magnum: ~1,200 ft/lbs .45 ACP: ~530 ft/lbs 9mm: ~460 ft/lbs .22LR: ~200 ft/lbs It is clear that the 9mm and the .45 ACP are in the same category and they are not to be compared to a .22 or a .44 magnum. They are equivalent.
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September 10, 2011, 11:50 AM | #56 | ||
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A .22 is better than a lot of things that are also better than nothing. Many folks will claim that the .22 is better than the .17 hmr and better than the .25 acp for self defense as well. They too are better than nothing. Nothing is a very low standard. ------------------- Quote:
I don't find any that come close to 200 ft/lbs. Most are less than 135 at the muzzle when fired from a rifle (not a pistol). Only a few go over 150 lbs. The only one I find at 200 is the Aguila Super Max (30 grains) and once more, that is when fired from a rifle, not a pistol, and even then I haven't seen where any end user has actually gotten that much velocity from it when they have chrono'd it. http://www.chuckhawks.com/22_rimfire_cartridges.htm http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm...dID=AU1B222297
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September 10, 2011, 01:01 PM | #57 |
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DNS, you left out the context where I said what I really recommended were rounds that had good reliability for breaking bone. The only "standard" I set for .22 was that it was worth considering for those who are too feeble to handle something more. Some folks do fall into that category.
For those who are not physically limited, I normally would recommend .38 Special or 9mm as a minimum. If you are going to selectively quote people, in order to make your arguments, you might pick your quotes from people who actually illustrate your argumentative point. In this case, you are simply annoying somebody who generally agrees with you, by quoting in incomplete context and implying intent that does not exist. I would put it to you, though, that as somebody who has some idea of how to use a sharp stick as well as a .22, that I'd choose my Model 18 over a sharp stick. Moving targets are a different matter, but on stationary ones I can shoot the eyes out of a zombie target at 10 yards with that revolver; I imagine it would work in a pinch. But it won't have to, since my carry guns are .38 and .357 revolvers, and 9mm, .40, and .45 autos. |
September 10, 2011, 03:17 PM | #58 | |
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It was a sharp stick IN THE EYE.
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September 10, 2011, 03:19 PM | #59 |
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Well, I'm not sure if the stick would break off in the eye socket or go on through. I suspect the .22 would go on through, so I'd go with the .22 in the eye over the sharp stick in the eye.
I'd take either over a bunch of raspberries. But I'd take the Bengal tiger over the raspberries, stick, or .22. |
September 10, 2011, 04:06 PM | #60 |
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I'm thinking spear like stick and not a twig.
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September 10, 2011, 04:14 PM | #61 |
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When ever you have a discussion about bullet effectiveness some one ALWAYS, without exception, points out that "shot placement" is what counts.
As if to invalidate the discussion regarding bullet technology and performance. Get's kind of old. We all know that bullet placement is extremely important. It SHOULD be just as evident that, if shooting is justified, perforating Bubba the feral man's upper torso with the best in bullet techology/performance is much preferal to the ad nauseum "it doesn't matter what bullet you use" philosophy. Who are these guy's? Seems to be some developing evidence that a large percentage are those who have convinced themselves (and are now trying to convince others) that their lives are just as well protected with WWB or some other "budget" ammo as with DPX, Gold Dot, HST or Golden Saber. Just my thoughts on the matter. Last edited by Nnobby45; September 10, 2011 at 04:20 PM. |
September 10, 2011, 04:28 PM | #62 |
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What we need to know about the .22.
Wounds are serious, dangerous, and deadly. Ability to stop a violent attack quickly is very poor. If you're determined to choose a .22 for self protection, why settle for the second worst caliber? You can always go with the .25 Auto and be armed with the VERY worst. Lastly: Is a .22 better than nothing if that's all you have? Dang right it is. Would you choose it as a primary SD weapon? Crap, no--I wouldn't. If you needed a gun to secure food over a long period of time (in small game country) and it had to double as your SD weapon against two legged predators, would it be worth considering? Yes. Last edited by Nnobby45; September 10, 2011 at 06:38 PM. |
September 11, 2011, 01:00 AM | #63 |
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@Nnobby45: The reason why shot placement does invalidate bullet technology and performance is because even using the biggest and baddest loads in 9mm, .40, and .45 it is still very low energy levels. Those 50 to 100 ft/lbs of extra energy doesn't matter (assuming you are indeed using the best defensive loads for your caliber of choice). The only tangible differences at that point (after shot placement and bullet technology) are capacity and recoil.
Its very specific. The hottest commercial 9mm I have seen is around 480 ft/lbs and the hottest .45 I have seen is around 530 ft/lbs. 50 ft/lbs doesn't make a difference and simply does not make up for the lower capacity and higher recoil of a .45. A slightly better case can be made for .40 but apparently *sarcasm* .40 has higher "perceived" recoil than .45 so therefore it is actually "worse" than a .45 with more actual recoil and lower capacity. Go figure. */sarcasm* I mean, if you don't agree that is cool. But, I have justified my standpoint with facts and if I'm wrong at least I based it on something more plausible than what many people normally base their opinions on (i.e. I like how this one goes boom).
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September 11, 2011, 10:26 AM | #64 |
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Good point above. The BG on the video was shot with 115gr FMJ 9mm ammo, but the shot that got him down was placed near the heart. Game over.
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September 11, 2011, 06:48 PM | #65 |
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Shot placement is important, but shooting until the threat is neutralized is king.
Any hit on the bad guy is good for the good guy, if he continues to shoot. A peripheral hit will cause damage and effect the bad guys ability to fight. The effect may be large or small. The key is to keep hitting him until the effect stops the bad guy. In my opinion, get the first shot off fast. Even a miss will substantially raise the bad guys stress level. Work on accuracy as you continue to fire. |
September 11, 2011, 06:54 PM | #66 | |
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Advocating possible benefits from a miss when you meant to hit as still a good thing isn't in line with current thinking.
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September 11, 2011, 07:06 PM | #67 |
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Corbon 165gr. +P 45ACP I have go 1250ft/sec with 573 ft/lbs. They are impressive and shoot well. Right now they are the 1st mag in my 1911. I agree the difference is not by much in terms of energy when if comes to pistols though. I still prefer the bigger bullet of the 45ACP, even if it weighs less its still .45 and has a better chance of hitting something when placed in the right area, imo. Plus out of everything I have shot in my life I shoot a 1911 best in 45ACP. I am most comfortable with it and can put rounds accuratley downrange quickly. I am very confident in the firearm and I believe that is important when using it for SD. My second choice is 9mm, I carry that the most in my 3913NL since it is small and easily concealed. I have complete confidence in the 9mm as well just prefer my 45. Winter months my 45 is carried and warmer times its the 3913. I feel fine with either. Sorry for the ramble post .
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September 11, 2011, 08:18 PM | #68 | ||
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Again --
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September 12, 2011, 05:42 AM | #69 | |
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If our number one priority is surviving then we do what is necessary to survive. If that means letting one go early so be it. If that means stopping the charge of the man with the Katana raised over his head even though he has a crowd of innocent women and children behind him, so be it. Do all possible to protect those innocents but do what is necessary to survive. When the two are in conflict survival takes precedence. |
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September 12, 2011, 06:19 AM | #70 | |
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Seems to me that y'all are advocating spray and pray with speed over accuracy. Scary. Yes, getting off a shot fast may be good. Getting off a shot fast just to be shooting isn't good.
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September 12, 2011, 11:55 AM | #71 | |
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I am only advocating returning fire as soon as possible even if to soon to get off a precision shot. We will have to agree to disagree with the last statement because if being fired upon decreases someones chances of hitting you then it really would be good to fire on somebody just to be fast. Spray and pray would also get the benefits of duress however it will not likely end the threat like controller aimed fire would. |
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September 12, 2011, 12:36 PM | #72 |
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When the military does it, it's called "suppressive fire."
It has its time and place, but that usually isn't in a civilian SD scenario. Doesn't mean it could never have application, just that we normally don't carry enough ammo to waste any, and we often aren't in relatively clear areas as regards fields of fire. |
September 12, 2011, 03:06 PM | #73 | ||
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I have said this many times, carry what you can shoot and feel comfy with. I try to get folks using a 45 but some just dont want that. go figure, and my posts were about old times, many folks used a 22. |
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September 13, 2011, 02:28 AM | #74 | ||
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You may be entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean that any of us have to agree with you. Several of us think, with good reason, that you're wrong; and we reserve the right to say so. |
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September 13, 2011, 11:07 AM | #75 |
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I'm with Fiddle the 22lr is a poor choice of self defense round. Only when it is the only viable option, IE disability or other physical impairment prevent the use of bigger calibers, should it be considered.
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