|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
August 30, 2011, 05:13 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 8, 2011
Location: Asturias, Spain
Posts: 328
|
What matters is shot placement. Actual bank robbery shooting.
Actual shooting happened a few years ago in Petrer (Alicante), Spain:
http://www.dalealplay.com/informacio...php?con=140260 Long story made short. A bank robbery takes place and customers are held hostage by the robbers. Police arrive on scene and robbers exchange fire with the police. One of the robbers is hit in the chest and hip, KO but survives his injuries. A cop takes three hits from this robber, one jaw hit, forearm and one leg. Survives his injuries too. The guy that runs is the other robber. He falls down due to the slippery pavement and tries to shoot at the cops chasing him on foot (his gun was a .45, probably a 1911 type) but when trying to do so, gets two torso hits and another one in the right wrist. Ammunition used by the cops (Petrer Local Police, although National Police guys were also present) was 115 gr FMJ 9mm. One of the hits (the deadly one) was very close to the BG's heart. Look at how quickly he falls down after getting hit. The BG was pronounced dead on scene. Apart from the shooting, it is really scary how close to the bullets in the air the dark VW Golf was. It is a practice car from a driving school, and I don't know, really can't understand how you can see a guy on the run holding a pistol towards the cops and still try to get across instead of backing off. After this incident, the Municipality of Petrer got rid of their FMJ ammunition and started using JHP. I guess that at local level, politicians are easier to convince than at national level, because, although we have complained, we are still being issued FMJ or semi-jacketed soft points in the two national level LEAs instead of proper law-enforcement ammo. This stupid policy has to do with their thought that hollow points cause more damage, therefore, it's against human rights. The BG's rights, of course, who cares about law abiding citizens ones or cops'. Lesson learned... Despite using the least appropiate type of ammo (FMJ) in a low-weight variety (115gr) and a caliber despised for allegedly lacking stopping power (9mm), a torso hit close enough to the heart will bring a BG down quite quickly. |
August 30, 2011, 06:17 PM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 16, 2010
Posts: 1,654
|
To me that just reaffirms that the 9mm ball can perform but you need to place your rounds and may need an extra 1-2. People say the 9mm is weak but it is NO JOKE. It was the first 'big bore'(its in the SD class so lets call it one) caliber of .355 that could hold alot of ammo. The 45ACP will always be my 1st choice but the 9mm is my only other Semi Caliber.
|
August 30, 2011, 07:30 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
|
Shot placement is meaningless without trajectory and penetration to the appropriate vital organs to cause sufficient damage. The bad guy could have shot all the cops in the center of the chest, but because they were wearing vests would have gotten zero penetration.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
August 30, 2011, 07:48 PM | #4 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Delaware - formerly NJ
Posts: 276
|
Quote:
We keep hearing this tired line from 9mm fans, who use it to champion their favorite caliber against more powerful ones, like .40, .45, and .357. Yet they don't put their money where their words are, and use mousegun calibers, because they know in their hearts that in reality shot placement isn't the only thing that matters -- penetration, stopping power, bullet design, weight, and diameter all matter too. All these factors go together, along with the qualities of the target, to determine the outcome. As for shot placement -- you can't aim at an artery, which is often a factor in bringing a target down. You can't see the artery, and even if you could, you couldn't hit it. A heart shot is pretty much just hitting center of center of mass, which is just what we should all be trying to do anyway. So, given that we are already trying to hit center of mass....power matters. |
|
August 30, 2011, 08:29 PM | #5 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
|
Quote:
Every one knows that shot placement is the key factor. There isn't any argument in that regard, and it gets repeated with great regularity on every thread that talks about "stopping power" issues. But ammo choice is important, also. An assailant can fail to go down even when fatally shot with ball ammo. Less likely to happen with reliable HP's. |
|
August 30, 2011, 08:33 PM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
|
Quote:
And yet there are those "shot placement is all that matters" advocates who will look you right in the eye, without a wink or a smile, and tell you with a straight face, that a shot to the chest with hardball that expands not at all, is just as good as a hit using a hollow point that expands to 70 to 90 caliber and penetrates 14 inches. Seems their definition of "hitting in the right place" has much narrower parameters than for more effective HP's. |
|
August 30, 2011, 08:37 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 8, 2011
Location: Asturias, Spain
Posts: 328
|
Hey, hey... first of all, it's not my intention to start a flaming thread here or despise any other calibers. Much the opposite, I just wanted to show how an ammo and caliber that might seem inappropiate, can do the job perfectly well. When watching the video, I counted two shots when the bad guy went down. I have no doubt that .40 or .45 are more powerful.
GM1967, there is a recent thread about a clerk shot twice with a .22 who died as a result, and a bad guy who took several (seven?) .45 hits and survived, yet I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying a .22. My thought is that a 9 should be the smallest thing to carry for self defense, provided that you use proper ammo, but see how even that 9 in FMJ took this guy down real quick. In fact, I agree with all you said, and this was just my way to show that I disagree with those that say that a 9 "won't stop anything". |
August 30, 2011, 09:04 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 16, 2010
Posts: 1,654
|
The 9mm is the high capacity SD gun with good capability. The 40 S&W is the middle capacity SD gun with a better capability(Some loads rival 45's). The 45 is the lowest capacity with the best capability in my eyes. Ask me any day I will take a 45ACP over anything. However my next choice is 9mm because my 45 can do what the 40 can. I like the 9mm capacity and believe it is more than capable.
|
August 30, 2011, 10:01 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 4,453
|
1) FMJ ammo can kill and if hit dead on it can stop an opponent right in their tracks.
2) When you are moving, shooting, and being shot at, you will fine perfect placement hard to accomplish. Therefore you should use the best ammo you can get and practice (I mean combat shooting, not target practice) as much as you can. If you do the above and are lucky then maybe you will shoot well even while your hair is standing strait up! And I will say that if I had a choice of FMJ ammo and lots of practice or fancy JHPs and little practice, I'd go the FMJ route. Skill and nerve is what matters, and nerve matters most. Deaf
__________________
“To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides |
August 31, 2011, 06:54 AM | #10 |
Junior member
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 6,846
|
Bullet profile is a BIG factor in FMJ effectiveness. From the beginning, the 9mm had a more pointed profile while the 45 had a flatter round nose profile. Even a nonexpanding 9mm HP will provide a flatter meplat which will transfer more energy and damage more tissue than the typical FMJ.
I carry a 9mm mostly because I have hand strength issues but also because my Father survived WW2 packing a HiPower 9mm lifted from a German. He could have carried a 45 but found the 13 rounds of 9mm were preferrable. I don't know the exact circumstances but if he thought it was adequate, I won't argue with his choice. |
August 31, 2011, 12:06 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 16, 2010
Posts: 1,654
|
If I couldnt have a 1911 45ACP, a BHP 9mm would be my second choice. Not just back then but today as well.
|
August 31, 2011, 12:19 PM | #12 |
Junior member
Join Date: March 25, 2011
Posts: 463
|
The "lesson" here, if there is one, is a 12 ga shotgun can't be beat.
I don't often shoot anyone, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis. Stay armed, my friends. Last edited by secret_agent_man; August 31, 2011 at 12:38 PM. |
August 31, 2011, 01:03 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 16, 2010
Posts: 1,654
|
LMAO...I don't often shoot anyone, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis. Me too, I got the new brand Dos Equis 45. Cool pic of the 2 Hulls flying out of the shotgun. I love those self ejecting double barrels they are so cool. I rather have a Rifle if I could but at closer ranges the 12Gauge cant be beat.
|
August 31, 2011, 02:10 PM | #14 | |
Junior member
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
|
Quote:
BTW I'm not a 9mm champion. I shoot both 9mm and 45acp. Carry the Glock 30 for CC. |
|
August 31, 2011, 02:13 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 16, 2010
Posts: 1,654
|
^+1
|
August 31, 2011, 04:09 PM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,971
|
Quote:
I prefer a 45 but in a pinch my ruger will do fine. |
|
August 31, 2011, 04:24 PM | #17 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
|
Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
|
August 31, 2011, 04:43 PM | #18 |
Junior member
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
|
The round penetrates because it has good velocity and a tiny diameter. I wouldn't say it has "good" penetration either. I witnessed a deer (yes I know the law) get harvested with a ruger 10/22 rifle. First shot hit high behind the front legs and into the spine. Second shot hit the neck and finished the buck. Neither exited. The upper neck on this tiny 140 pound Florida deer was maybe 5 inches across (a big maybe).
|
August 31, 2011, 04:58 PM | #19 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 12, 2010
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 447
|
Quote:
|
|
September 2, 2011, 02:40 PM | #20 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,971
|
Quote:
Like I said, I killed more critters were a lot scarier than any man I ever met all with a 22. Dropped 2000 lb animals right there one shot, now I am not saying a 45 wouldnt have done the trick but when meat is involed best not to waste much. Would I consider a 22 for self defense? heck yeah, pin point accuracy and little noise, light recoil and fast back on target, sure would. |
|
September 2, 2011, 02:58 PM | #21 |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
There are four ways in which shooting an assailant stops a fight:
Depending on someone just giving up because he's been shot is iffy. Probably most fights are stopped that way, but some aren't. Breaking major skeletal structures can quickly impair mobility, but someone with a gun can still shoot. Hits to the central nervous system are sure and quick, but the CNS presents a small and uncertain target. The most common and sure physiological way in which shooting someone stops him is blood loss -- depriving the brain and muscles of oxygen and nutrients, thus impairing the ability of the brain and muscles to function. Blood loss is facilitated by (1) large holes causing tissue damage; (2) getting the holes in the right places to damage major blood vessels or blood bearing organs; and (3) adequate penetration to get those holes into the blood vessels and organs which are fairly deep in the body. The problem is that blood loss takes time. People have continued to fight effectively when gravely, even mortally, wounded. So things that can speed up blood loss, more holes, bigger holes, better placed holes, etc., help. So as a rule of thumb --
Because they tend to make bigger holes, and the modern ones are likely to penetrate sufficiently, I'll choose JHPs. |
September 2, 2011, 03:49 PM | #22 | |
Junior member
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
|
What fiddletown said times two
Quote:
Read what Fiddletown said. If that doesn't allow you to understand why the 22lr is the worst defensive caliber choice available then stop debating because nothing will change on either side. The media didn't brainwash me and I guarantee it didn't brainwash Fiddle. It really isn't rocket science to get it. A 45 caliber 12 inch deep wound is better than a 22 caliber 10 inch wound. A 45 cal 230 grain bullet at 950 feet per second will smash a blocking bone and continue to dig deeper into the body than a 22 caliber 40 grain bullet at 1300 fps will. Its a simple as that. |
|
September 2, 2011, 05:57 PM | #23 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
||
September 4, 2011, 10:03 AM | #24 |
Junior member
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
|
Critters don't have HiPoints in your face and shoot at you until their gun jams or they lose consciousness either.
|
September 6, 2011, 03:25 PM | #25 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,971
|
Quote:
Quote:
The 22 short is what you are thinking about, the lr was introduced to give the round power. Wish I could find that old book told the story of most calibers of that time (the 50s and 60s). Them riverboat gamblers carried multi shot 22s for the cartridges guns. Like I said themedia has brain washed most folks, Americans need bigger than anyone else. Like I said, if a 22 was all I had Iwould not run and hide, I would use the durn thing effectivly. I know how to shoot the thing. |
||
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|