AA12 auto shotgun for sale to civilians?

[desertdave]

Does anyone know if the AA12 auto shotgun for sale to civilians and if so how much?

[Super-Dave]

I am sure a full auto will not be availible for civillians. However a semi auto might be possible depending on what state the manufacturer is in. I think the price on a semi auto AA12 would probably be $1,500.00-$2,000.00

This was just a guess. I am not willing to pay that right now. I might pay $1,000.00 if I could get the drum's cheaply and easily.

[desertdave]

oh thats too bad because that looks like one bad ass gun!

[cajun47]

well is there a semi auto aa 12 out for civilians yet?

[Technosavant]

well is there a semi auto aa 12 out for civilians yet?

Nope. There aren't even any rumors of one ever being available. Even if they would offer one, it would likely be a Destructive Device from the get-go, and that's going to cut the market down quite a bit.

[Double Naught Spy]

Why would a semi auto shotgun be a destructive device?

[Technosavant]

Because the capacity and other characteristics pretty well run right over the line the ATF uses to define "sporting" vs. "nonsporting," and a nonsporting scattergun is by statute a DD. The ATF hasn't really been enforcing it, but strictly speaking, that's what the law says.

[TIGERARMS]

If you want a semi-auto shotgun with 'cool factor' just build a Saiga 12. I say "build" because a conversion to pistol grip configuration and modification to the bolt/carrier will be needed to make it more reliable... or should I say functional. With the AA12, what you see is what you get... no customization.

...my two cents anyways.

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, I know that capacity isn't the issue for determination of sporting, otherwise the new Xrail mags would be turning "sporting" guns into DDs.

So what are the other attributes that would make it DD?

[Technosavant]

So what are the other attributes that would make it DD?

According to the ATF*, the things they look at when determining "sporting" vs. "nonsporting" are:

1) folding/telescoping/collapsible stocks
2) bayonet lugs
3) flash suppressors
4) 5+ round magazine or a drum magazine
5) grenade launcher mount
6) integrated rail system (other than on top of receiver or barrel)
7) light enhancing devices
8) excessive weight
9) excessive bulk
10) forward pistol grip or other protruding grip.

Now, keep in mind that US Law** says that shotguns are essentially DDs UNLESS they meet sporting purpose tests as described above. It is true that the ATF hasn't really done squat with this, but the regulatory authority is there and they have done it in the past with the Striker 12 and the USAS 12. So while there's no shortage of those of us with 870 Tacticals and converted (but 922r compliant) Saiga 12s, a stroke of a regulatory pen can mean we're filling out Form 4s and getting fingerprinted for the tax stamps.

Faced with that, I just don't see them bothering trying to make a semiauto AA-12 for civilian sale; that's an investment of real money that can be negated pretty quickly. Whatever happens to the regulatory environment, the AA-12 was designed quite some time ago, and if they were remotely interested in making one for civilians, they could have done so long before now. My guess is that they won't, possibly because of this regulatory possibility.


*As found on page 5 in their self study on importability of certain shotguns. While the publication is indeed dealing with imported guns, the criteria are used for everything.

**US Code Title 18, Section 921(a)4(B).

[hogdogs]

The now defunct "street sweeper" basically filled the role the AA12 in semi auto would fill.

Brent

[EdInk]

Buy a Saiga and get a drum magazine.

[jettsett]

I got the opportunity to meet Gerry Baber recently and to shoot the famous AA-12. It is an awesome gun and the engineering is fantastic. 6 different kinds of stainless steel based on properties. It will probably never be offered to civilians unless you have a class 3 lisence because they only make a full auto version. The price is pretty darn steep at USD $12,000.00. Yes, that's right 12 large. Is it worth it? Well, people buy jewelry every day and you can't blow a hole in a door with a diamond ring. Jerry thinks it's worth it.

While I believe that Gerry's investment and efforts are important and valuable, I don't think he is going to get a lot of orders for this gun at $12,000 per unit. I hope he does, I wish him well, I admire his mind, but I don't think it will happen. He is a great guy and soooo smart. The downside to this gun is the situation. Gerry is 76 years old, he has 3 employees, none of which are engineers. He is a brilliant engineer but he holds his stuff pretty close to his chest. His ability to produce quantity fast does not exist nor does he want to. He is the central pivot point and he still is directly involved with the casting of all the stainless steel parts at his foundry. I hate to look at it this way but what if he could not participate in the production of this gun? I think that production would stop and that is the problem.

[hogdogs]

That dern pre/post 1986 thing sux.

Brent

[death2twinkys]

Doesn't it also have a titanium alloy somewhere in its manufacture? If so that doubtless contributes to the high cost and decreases its likelihood of Mass production which is really whats required to bring the costs down.

[hogdogs]

Titanium and all of its required tooling and labor to work it has become much more refined...

I know a guy who builds flounder (flat fish) gig heads. He has stainless or Ti... I thought the Ti would be more than double or triple more expensive but was surprised to find it was a bit more expensive but not double.

Mind you, he doesn't have any "proof" type quality control issues like many products would nor does he do a heat treat if it is ever applicable to Ti work.

Brent

[kdmoore]

Technosavant wrote:

Because the capacity and other characteristics pretty well run right over the line the ATF uses to define "sporting" vs. "nonsporting," and a nonsporting scattergun is by statute a DD. The ATF hasn't really been enforcing it, but strictly speaking, that's what the law says.

My understanding is slightly different. As an owner of a Saiga and having gone thru the arguments re: the 10 round mags manufactured years ago, and the current drum mags ....

I understand that domestic shotguns are ALL granted exemption from DD status by default. The Secretary of the Treasure has to remove this exemption to specific shotguns ... and does so on the grounds that the shotgun is not particularly suited to ... or readily adapted to a sporting purpose shotgun. This is how the domestic USAS12 and street sweeper lost their exemptions and are considered DD's.

Imported firearms, including shotguns, have to be meet the "sporting purpose hurdle". This is why Saiga shotguns and rifles have no pistol grip, large mags, etc. But this is only for importation. Of course, 922r gives allowance to "build" from parts these otherwise untouchable firearms ... but no more than 10 parts may be foriegn manufactured ... a whole nuther thread

So, they'd be ok UNLESS/UNTIL they lost their exemption as sporting shotguns. This theoretically could happen to MANY diff shotguns. HD shotties with large mag capacities (i.e. competition master) COULD be singled out. Note that home defense and tactical competitions are not sports in our gov't vaunted opinion.

They haven't done it for the Saiga (yet), but that's a bit different. The imported config of Saiga shotguns IS defined as sporting. It's the modifications that many make that makes it so scary our govt would call it unsporting. So they might not do it for the AA12. Except the AA12 seems related to the USAS12. One of the beefs against the USAS12 was it's excessive weight.

But yea .... buy a Saiga and a drum or two and call it done!!!!!

[Eghad]

I remember seeing a demonstration of this shotgun at the Army Match at Ft. Benning. I wouldn't want to be downrange.

[Wag]

If you like that.....

http://www.autocopter.us/Gunship.htm



--Wag--

[rdf.hack]

An AA12 semi auto with a modified 5 round magazine (to prevent larger capacity magazine installation) I think, would probably not be a DD. What I'm thinking is, they just thicken the magazine and enlarge the well, and change the catch position, it may just be enough to get it pasty the ATF