Not sure where im loosing accuracy

[idigg]

well, in order to loose something, you have to have it to begin with... but here is my story.... ive been hunting for some time.. and would consider myself a good shot, both on the bench, and on the stand... i picked up a used remington 700 adl 30-06 a few months back... my intention was to turn it into something i can shoot 200, 300, hopefully 400 yards. before i went out, i bought a cheapo bushnell scope, and kept the factory rings, and factory synthetic stock... first time out, i had some pretty terrible groups. 4" at best at 100 yards. wasnt real happy with it. i was using some of my fathers old reloads. which, according to him, are very close to the factory load that comes in the 150 grain remington coreloct box. in any event, the rounds were old. old enough that the casings were splitting 4/5 times.

so after that, i decided some changes needed to be made. i swapped the scope out for a vortex diamondback 4-12. got a set of game reaper one piece integral rings. for the heck of it, i also got a boyds stock. both because i loved the look, and because i heard a lot about the oem tupperware causing some accuracy issues. i also got some factory loads to eliminate the possibility of issues with my dad's old reloads. basically, i wasnt trying to necessarily discover what the issue was, but to be sure i got rid of it in time for hunting season...

i just took the gun out yesterday, and i improved my 100 yard range to somewhere around a 3" group. better, but still pretty disappointing. at 200 yards, i had 3 shots within 5", but one was about 8" low.

as for my steadyness... this was from a "lead sled"... i also am not a flincher. im a pretty confident shooter.

2 things im unsure about... barrel heat... i probaby shot the 100 yard shots with about 2 minutes between the shots.. the 200 yard shots were probably a bit quicker.

eye positon... now here is my big question.... ive always wondered, and i did a bit of research today... the shadow you get around the outside of the scope... aka if you hold your eye too far back.. does that affect your shot, and how much? i feel like an idiot, because after all these years, i never really took that into consideration. 2 things... how much accuracy do you loose if you have that "ring" off centered? and how much accuracy do you loose if you have your eye too far back, and thus, have a thick ring?
http://i.imgur.com/v0WhORi.png
could it be that, which is affecting my groups that badly? id feel really stupid, but wow, that would change a lot. kind of like finding out your motorcycle wont start cause the gas is turned off. stupid mistake, but easy fix for a night and day difference.

the only other things i can think of would be that the barrel is shot out, or i need to look into bedding the stock... but it seems like i shouldnt need to do that in order to get decent groupings at 200 yards.

[Pathfinder45]

So, it's a used rifle that probably has more than a few rounds shot through it and maybe a lot of rounds. Although it could be shot out, I kinda doubt it. However, it may have significant copper deposits built up over the years until the previous owner figured it was worn out, didn't shoot nearly as well as it used to and got sold off. Clean the barrel extremely well with a copper solvent bore cleaner. It can make a huge difference. Use fresh ammo. What caliber is it?

[jmr40]

The link you show is describing parallax. It is real but at most you're talking about very minor differences.

From Leupolds owners manual.

. It occurs when the image of the target does not fall on
the same optical plane as the reticle. This can cause a small shift
in the point of aim. Maximum parallax occurs when your eye is
at the very edge of the exit pupil (Even in this unlikely event, our
4x hunting scope focused for 150 yards has a maximum error of
only 8/10ths of an inch at 500 yards). At short distances, effects
of parallax do not affect accuracy (using the same 4x scope at 100
yards, the maximum error is less than 2/10ths of an inch ). It is
also good to
remember that, as long as you are sighting straight
through the middle of the scope, or close to it, parallax will have
very little effect on accurac

The tupperware stocks work just fine.

Bedding a stock can help some, but not this much. It is possible that the aftermarket stock just plain does not fit well and could be putting pressure on the barrel or action. But the odds of the same thing happening with both stocks is slim.

How many shots in each group? Personally for a hunting rifle I think 3 is enough. Especially multiple 3 shot groups. If you're putting 10 shots down range even at 1-2 minutes between shots will heat things up enough to open things up. Also, if the 1st few shots look good,but the last few open up it is an indication of a barrel being too hot. One group of 3-5 or even 10 could be the result of very good, or very bad luck. But a series of 3 shot groups over a period of time and several range trips tell a lot about what the rifle is capable of.

Figuring this out online is all but impossible. My next guess is that you could have a bad crown on the muzzle, but I'd take it to a qualified gunsmith and get it looked at. Anything you hear here is at best a guess.

[RC20]

Phew, lot of effort and money put into it.

I would get a Savage or Rugar, low cost and accurate.

Cabalas has a Savage 308 varmint last week for $380, not sure if they put others on sale (not that you want to hunt with a heavy barrel varmint.

Some good low cost great hunting rifles and pretty good even for bench rest with 3 shot groups.

[Mobuck]

Personally, I think you went WAY overboard in response to what may have been a simple problem. Addressing one issue at a time would be prudent.
A: I would NOT have continued to shoot the reloads that were "splitting 4/5". Obviously something wrong there and most likely the main problem.
B: A "deep cleaning" was in order with the "used rifle".
C: I use "cheapo Bushnell scopes" that work fine so throwing blame in that direction was likely an incorrect assumption. Lower priced scopes may be more susceptible to parallax/eye position than the high dollar models and will cause the "flyer" problem you described.
D: Replacing the stock was counter productive and incorporated a whole new set of issues. I replaced the stock on a known to be accurate rifle/scope/ammo combination and groups increased 5X initially.

[idigg]

So, it's a used rifle that probably has more than a few rounds shot through it and maybe a lot of rounds. Although it could be shot out, I kinda doubt it. However, it may have significant copper deposits built up over the years until the previous owner figured it was worn out, didn't shoot nearly as well as it used to and got sold off. Clean the barrel extremely well with a copper solvent bore cleaner. It can make a huge difference. Use fresh ammo. What caliber is it?

It is a 30-06... sorry bout that. sounds like my last hope is to try and get the copper out of it. i checked the only way i knew for a barrel to be shot out... look down the barrel from the rear. it seemed pretty uniform the whole way down.

Personally, I think you went WAY overboard in response to what may have been a simple problem. Addressing one issue at a time would be prudent.
A: I would NOT have continued to shoot the reloads that were "splitting 4/5". Obviously something wrong there and most likely the main problem.
B: A "deep cleaning" was in order with the "used rifle".
C: I use "cheapo Bushnell scopes" that work fine so throwing blame in that direction was likely an incorrect assumption. Lower priced scopes may be more susceptible to parallax/eye position than the high dollar models and will cause the "flyer" problem you described.
D: Replacing the stock was counter productive and incorporated a whole new set of issues. I replaced the stock on a known to be accurate rifle/scope/ammo combination and groups increased 5X initially.

i mean, i planned on buying and doing all this stuff at some point anyways. i liked the idea of upgrading the gun. so it was kind of a good excuse.

everywhere else ive read, and asked, people have said that splitting old reloads is common, and wouldnt affect accuracy.

but i did all those things... just not one at a time. i could only get to the range one more time before hunting season.
so your suggestion is a deep cleaning?
i still have the old stock. but would putting that back on tighten up those groups?

I would get a Savage or Rugar, low cost and accurate.

well, thanks for the advice, but its not like a remington 700 is an inaccurate rifle. if there is something i can replace or clean or fix, im sure it will be less than $380. hell, i could get another 700 adl brand new for about the same price. why make this about brands? remington also makes some cheap rifles that shoot accurately and low cost.

[idigg]

The link you show is describing parallax. It is real but at most you're talking about very minor differences.

From Leupolds owners manual.

The tupperware stocks work just fine.

Bedding a stock can help some, but not this much. It is possible that the aftermarket stock just plain does not fit well and could be putting pressure on the barrel or action. But the odds of the same thing happening with both stocks is slim.

How many shots in each group? Personally for a hunting rifle I think 3 is enough. Especially multiple 3 shot groups. If you're putting 10 shots down range even at 1-2 minutes between shots will heat things up enough to open things up. Also, if the 1st few shots look good,but the last few open up it is an indication of a barrel being too hot. One group of 3-5 or even 10 could be the result of very good, or very bad luck. But a series of 3 shot groups over a period of time and several range trips tell a lot about what the rifle is capable of.

Figuring this out online is all but impossible. My next guess is that you could have a bad crown on the muzzle, but I'd take it to a qualified gunsmith and get it looked at. Anything you hear here is at best a guess.

i was thinking the same thing with the stock. i shouldnt need to bed a stock to get 3" groups at 200 or 300 yards. and neither stock seems to be the cause of the problem.

the first time out i took it easy. id do 3 shots, and go do some other stuff around our cabin.

the second time out(this past weekend), i did 3 shots over about 10 minutes.. while dialing it in. after my 2 friends shot, i did 3 more over 10 minutes to see what the group would look like.

at 200 yards i took only 3 shots. probably over about 5 minutes.

welp, best guesses were about what i was looking for here. hoping to eliminate all of the stupid common sense stuff that i might have been overlooking. so i thank you and the others for helping me out in that. assuming i didnt do anything overly stupid, than off to the gunsmith i go.

so the consensus is that i do the following:
deep copper solvent
gunsmith to check barrel
buy savage or a rugar


it seems like everyone thinks i went a bit overboard trying to solve the problem all at once... but when it comes down to it, its all stuff i wanted to do anyways. i hate synthetic stocks. so i was planning on getting a laminated stock anyways. i also really wanted a good 12x scope. the scope i had on it was refunded fully. it had some bad focus issues at full power anyways. i have cheap scope on everything else i own. i just wasnt happy with this scope. the rings... well, i like the look of integral rings. and i wanted a nice low scope mount.

[Art Eatman]

I'd do the serious cleaning as the next step.

I'm assuming that the crown is not dinged; you'd likely have checked it.

I'd--on general principles--check the throat to see if it might be burned.

Wouldn't hurt to get the headspace checked, because of the split cases. I've never had a problem with old-age reloads. I've shot 20-year-old .243 ammo which printed two inches lower than new stuff, but still made tight groups. Same for some 25-year-old .223 I inherited from my uncle's stash.

I've had five-shot sub-MOA groups from my pet '06 with intervals of less than a minute between shots. When everything is righteous, long intervals shouldn't be necessary for tight groups.

[idigg]

i havent checked the crown actually. ill take a look, and possibly a photo.

the factory ammo all looked great afterwards. this ammo i was using was probably reloaded in the late 80s/early 90s, and was probably not the first time they were reloaded.

ill definitely do the heavy cleaning... after that... general idea... how much is it going to run me to have it checked at the gunsmith?

i think i can buy a brand new adl for around $375 after rebates right now. if it is going to cost a chunk of change just to find out the gun is mostly toast, i might as well skip it, and find another use for this gun, right? cause im thinking, after i do a heavy cleaning, if it is still messed up, then ive pretty much narrowed it down to something major, right? either it is shot out, or needs to be re-crowned, or it was just part of a bad batch from remington? or, or... so why take it to a gunsmith just to confirm that, and find out that id have to spend the same amount on the gun to repair it as i would to get a new gun..

im just thinking outloud. correct me if you disagree, by all means.

and thanks for the advice!

[FrankenMauser]

Scrub the barrel with a good copper remover.

Get all of the old copper out before retesting.

I'll bet a 500 word essay that group size shrinks by at least 50%.

[Pathfinder45]

Oh, but you are doing good. It's a project gun. It's a voyage of discovery that will be satisfying once you achieve success. Throw the plastic stock in the recycle bin where it belongs, or maybe trade it for a box of ammo at the gun show. Either way, good riddance. If it was cleaned a lot from the muzzle end, the rifling could be worn at that point. But shortening the barrel is perhaps the second-to-last thing you might do. The last resort, but entirely feasible, would be to rebarrel. I think you will solve this before you get to that point. Don't worry about, "What you should have done.........", statements. This is what you are doing. Good luck and we hope we are being helpful and encouraging.

[idigg]

thanks a whole lot guys. the vote of confidence is good to hear.

im planning on keeping the tupperware because if i do replace it, it will likely be for another adl. and ill either keep the old one as a backup, or sell it cheap to someone who isnt trying to do better than 3 or 4" groups at 100 yards.

gonna go research what copper removing solvent i should use. clean it out well, and take a pic of the muzzle.

....and then go from there.

[Kosh75287]

LOL @ FrankenMauser.

An odd thing to bet, but probably right.

[idigg]

ok, i bought some kg-12 bore cleaner, and some nylon brushes. lots of people said it was "THE BEST"... regardless, it sounds sufficient. ill let you guys know how it turns out.

[tobnpr]

i shouldnt need to bed a stock to get 3" groups at 200 or 300 yards. and neither stock seems to be the cause of the problem.

I don't think that's necessarily the case.

Boyd's are mass produced, and lack pillars or any sort of integral bedding blocks. This may be fine for some applications- but you're talking minute of angle for 3" at 300 yards and this requires a precise fit of stock to action.

Whenever you change more than one variable at a time it poses problems for "troubleshooting". You never established a baseline for how the rifle shot "as purchased"- so you have no idea as to whether what you've done has made it shoot better, or worse.

Could the throat be burned out? Possibly, if it's really old- but most likely was a hunting rifle with a relatively low round count. What was the year of manufacture (by S/N)?

I'd give the barrel a thorough cleaning with stripping out all the copper and trying to establish a baseline, see how it shoots after a few dozen rounds down the tube after that. Torque your action screws to spec, and if you really want to optimize accuracy, you're going to need to epoxy bed the receiver.
But first, you need to make sure you've got a decent barrel to work with. No point going further if that's not the case.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

A second vote for cleaning the barrel properly. Use a bore guide and clean from the breech to muzzle. Take your time.

If you are using standard Remington bottom metal, the action screws should be 35 inch pounds. If it is steel bottom metal, you can increase the torque.

Recheck your scope mounts and rings for proper tension.

If you have a chamber gauge, use it to see what's what at the rifling leade.

[idigg]

thanks folks... i hope to have it copper free this week, and will try and get it out to the range this coming weekend.

[cw308]

idigg, You received good advice from everyone. What did the rifle look like at first? Heavily used, did it look like the last owner took care of it or beat it up. Most hunting rifles aren't shot out but heavily fouled.In some cases JB Compound & kroil is needed to clean. If your parallax is correct you should be able to move your head slightly up & down & side to side and your cross hairs will stay on target. You need a good cheekweld, Also a good trigger. if one screw is loose on your base, mount or rings you could be all over the place. Not to mention lock time. Firing pin spring. For me that's the fun of it. If the rifle wasn't neglected you should be able to get it to be a shooter.

[Nathan]

Uh old reloads don't split 4/5 cases replicating factory ammo. Good thing you got something else to shoot. You might try a second brand too.

I'll also agree cleaning the bore and shooting 1-2 fouler before shooting groups is good advice.

Now, let's talk about this scope some......if you are seeing a thick black ring around the reticle and the reticle moves relative to the eye piece, you may have mounted it too far forward. It should be mounted so you get full clear view of the reticle on max power setting when you settle into the rifle. Movement of reticle to target is parallax.

Look at your scope coming out of the mount and make sure the scope isn't being marked. If it is, it needs lapped.

I think your issue results from too many changed between shots fired, but I do this too. Start with a good load and a tested scope and then you should be able to work it out.

Bedding is not a bad idea. No need to pillar bed. Just bed the lug and near the action screws. Also, bed ~2-3" in front of the lug. Free float the barrel, then shim until it shoots good.

[idigg]

ok everyone. i just wanted to report back. i FINALLY got a chance to get it out again after putting some copper remover through it. it did the trick! i was only able to shoot at a 100 yard range, but i had the bullet holes touching each other almost every time.

one of my pet peves on forums is when i find someone with a similar issue to myself, but they never reported back on the problem... so i try to always follow up.

so it appears that the gun isnt shot out, and im super happy with that! now off to lighten the trigger and do some shooting at 2, 3, and 400 yards!

[SRH78]

That is great news that it is now shooting the way it should and thanks for getting back with us.

[Snappo]

Used weapon so I would do the following:

1) clean the barrel to a fair thee well. Copper remover, then remoil with a bore snake, and then take a CBS and do it again (copper remover with brush followed by Remoil and a bore snake). Should be good to go.
2) Since you swapped to a Boyd's, you have to bed it properly. Watch a video on Youtube. Should be able to slide a matchbook properly through it. Floating and bedding is the big deal.
3) Buy a scope kit from Wheeler Engineering on MidwayUSA.
4) Get a respectable scope base. Nightforce is like $100 on MidwayUSA. I use them or Badger Ordnance exclusively.
5) Rings - get high quality rings. I only use serial numbered match Badger ordnance. Best $150 you will ever spend IMHO.
6) Glass - totally up to your budget and your eye. I have glass by a bunch of manufacturers: Leupold (LR/T), Pentax (Lightseeker 30), Springfield Government, Zeiss, Nikon, Bushnell.
7) Cheek weld pad. OK - I admit I am cheap there. I spent maybe $75 on my cheek pads.
8) Chron your rifle on a specific load and only use that load. Once you have the best load for your weapon (I prefer Lake City Long Range, or Black Hills Red Box) contact Kenton and get tuned trajectory compensators.
http://kentonindustries.com/category/custom-turrets


Here are my two 700 Police and my 700 XHR with the Boyds thumbhole stock:

[Paul B.]

"everywhere else ive read, and asked, people have said that splitting old reloads is common, and wouldnt affect accuracy."

I beg to differ. I've had what turned out to be bad brass do that on the first firing. Brass was brand new Remington. The load was a known accuracy load and necks split on firing. I had to break down about 185 rounds, some of which split when pulling the bullets. Salvaged the primers and powder and annealed the necks on that brass and they work just fine. It's called season cracked, usually from work hardened brass on as in my case probably a final annealing was missed.
All I can add is the ones that didn't crack grouped fairly nicely as expected but when one went astray, sure as God little green peanuts the neck would be cracked.
Paul B.

[Pathfinder45]

Thanks for reporting back! It's encouraging to know that we gave helpful advice and that things worked out so well.

[hooligan1]

I traded for a Tupper ware 700 3006, and after some pillar and plastic steel bedding, good bases and rings and decent glass, handloading and a knowledge of the old style 700 trigger, I have a rifle that will shoot with anyone's body stock factory barreled 700.
Don't let people tell you it's impossible to make tupperware stocks great, because when you're poor like me, it's not always feasible to spend bucks where there's no real need.
My rifle is a factory 24", 1:10" twist with a recessed muzzle crown, the original trigger was terrible and thanks to the Remington Crisp is now a wonderful trigger that breaks like glass at 2.5 lbs.
It also has 6 different handload that it shoots well enough to kill at 400 yds if necessary, and it's light for what it is.
Since the op's start of this thread I thought maybe it was wrong screw torque and copper fouling, glad that's all cool now, so go enjoy that rifle man and start handloading if you can.....