Prepping for a Re-blue

mattL46 · February 2, 2014, 04:07 PM

Few questions here. I have a well used M12 Winchester. The finish is very patchy at best. Some blue is great some is back to white. I was thinking of trying the slow rust method. Ive read that using that method is hard to achieve a glossy finish regardless of the level of polishing. Is this true. I'm after a glossy finish. Also must the existing blue be stripped? Or could I polish to my desired level and leave it remaining? Thanks folks.

Roughedge · February 2, 2014, 05:20 PM

Follow the instructions to the letter and it will turn out shiny. You have to dip and card at least 7 times to get a good job. The better you polish it between dips the better the finish is. If youve never done it or dont have the right equipment its better to have someone do it for you.

mattL46 · February 2, 2014, 06:14 PM

I'll do more research. I have no desire to let anyone else do it. You can't learn that way. If I were to ruin this one...well thats just part of it. It'll still break clay.

Dixie Gunsmithing · February 2, 2014, 09:50 PM

Why not just give it a hot rust blue, or Belgium blue? Art's gun shop is making the original Herter's formula, so all you would need is a hot water tank, a carding wheel, etc,. if you already have a means of polishing it. The guy has a series of videos of the entire process.

Rust bluing video:

http://www.artsgunshop.com/Video/Rus...ideoPlayer.htm

mattL46 · February 3, 2014, 01:21 AM

Dixie I'm not opposed to other ideas if you don't mind elaborating. Hot blueing is out of the question as long as we are talking about traditional hot blues. Tanks salts solutions etc.

Dixie Gunsmithing · February 3, 2014, 02:37 AM

Hot water bluing, not caustic. Hot water bluing is a faster rust blue which was used on a huge number of guns. With this, you don't need to let the gun sit a long while to rust. You boil the polished part in water to get it hot, take it out, swab on the bluing solution, card with carding wheel, then dip back into the hot water. It takes a few times, but its way faster than slow rust bluing. The video pretty much shows the complete process.

I didn't see Art showing the bluing solution on his website now, he must be selling directly to dealers, but Midway has it, along with Brownell's. However, you might give him a ring and buy some.

sixteenacrewood · February 3, 2014, 07:21 AM

Hi Mat
If you are going for a "new" look, take the earlier advise and let a pro do it for you, you will be much happier with the outcome.

I'm a complete amateur (bubba) but I'm altering/restoring a rusty old pump savage to fit my taste for antique and out of the ordinary things, plus I am a professional woodworker and in need of a hobby, and my shotgun has no collector value and never will.

so...that said, here is what I did and am still doing..

I took everything apart. derusted and degreased everything I wanted to refinish.

soaked the barrel/receiver,it's milled steel and one piece, in white vinegar for 30 min, bluing came off easy with a light brushing with 0000 steel wool and old tooth brush. Took less than 5 minutes.

I was going to use heat and Clorox bleach to rust it but was advised that there was not enough iron content to the steel.

so, I mixed a cup of peroxide, tsp vinegar, tsp salt and used this as my rusting solution.

It works Very fast, 2-3 minutes, and a light rust forms. rinse off with water and dish liquid to stop it. Do not turn your back on it or it will pit the steel.

The steps for this recipe are the same as for any rust blue method out there. Rust, boil, card, repeat, then oil. etc.

I chose rust brown, no boiling, and did not buff or polish before rusting, but I wanted an antique brown mat finish.

I am on the final step refinishing the stock and fore arm with an ebony stain and tung oil finish.

I am sure some will disapprove and this will totally get me in trouble, but I have been having great fun with it, and I love the look of my "new" pump.

best of luck

Old Stony · February 3, 2014, 07:34 AM

I agree, the Belgian blue gives a nice finish and is easy to do yourself. I have used it over the years on older guns that I didn't want to look like they had just been hot blued. It doesn't seem to give that really dark look like a new gun, but is reminiscent of some of the older finishes. You can heat your water on a camp stove and no nasty fumes to deal with. Your polishing job determines how shiny your finished project will look. The finer the polish, the more it will shine when done.

Dixie Gunsmithing · February 3, 2014, 09:47 AM

You don't really need to buy a tank to do this, as I saw a guy use a stock pot to heat the receiver, and he made a long tank from a piece of gutter, and two end caps. Evidently silicone gasket caulk will hold up on the caps, like Permatex, where it is designed to be hot. He used a camp stove using propane.

mattL46 · February 3, 2014, 10:19 AM

Thanks for the advice everyone. Like I said earlier not interested in a pro job. Youll never learn if you never try. I'm going to research the Belgium blue and the hot blue. Thanks for everyone's input.

natman · February 3, 2014, 08:18 PM

If you polish the gun it will remove all the old blue. Polishing is the secret. The bluing solution merely changes the color of the metal, the polishing job determines how the gun will look. It has to be shiny and consistent for the job to turn out well. Bluing hides nothing. Every little flaw will show.

Be SURE not to over polish. Nothing says "Bubba" like smeared writing and dished out screw holes.

I'd recommend wet sanding with 400, then 600 weight sandpaper and light oil. Use the paper on a FLAT surface where possible. It's slower than a buffer wheel, but that's a good thing because it's harder to overpolish.

I'd recommend that you practice on something other than a Model 12 first.

James K · February 3, 2014, 11:26 PM

Rust blue will give a "soft" blue, no matter how well the metal is polished. Any guns made before about 1935 were either rust blued or carbonia blued*, the last being used mainly on handguns by Colt and S&W. So look at a WWI Luger or a pre-WWII Model 70 Winchester for rust blue.

*Krag and early Springfield 1903 rifles were oil blackened, part of the heat treatment process.

Jim

mattL46 · February 4, 2014, 01:22 AM

Thanks natman but too late. I have a little bit of polishing experience. And some good help. Not just from you fine folks at TFL but my dad has built and helped build many fine firearms so I do have a slight advantage over some of the other "bubbas" its actually going quite well. The corners and angles are all still there and the receiver is about 90% white now and starting to shine. As for bluing hiding anything...thats an unfortunate fact I already knew. Quite a few minor pits in this specimen and a lot of them are going to have to remain. They are just slightly too deep to rub off. I'm pretty well to the finer grit now trying to shine it up. I'll use a wrag wheel sparingly. Then comes the barrel and its family...which I'm not looking forward to. After I decide which avenue of blue to take I'll put on an extra fancy set of walnut that the old man has had lying around for a million years. Then...if all goes well...and I'm not too embarrassed...pictures. @James K thank you for the info...I'm having a hard time deciding which way I want to go. So many options...

Dixie Gunsmithing · February 4, 2014, 01:36 AM

Matt,

Another good example to look at, is double guns, both SxS and O/U, as the barrels are almost always hot water blued this way. Caustic bluing will eat the solder out from between the ribs, so the same hot water bluing we're speaking of is used. You will notice they're not black like caustic bluing is, but have a blueish tint.

mattL46 · February 4, 2014, 09:32 AM

Thanks dixie I really appreciate all your time taken for input. I'm leaning towards hot water bluing it sounds a little easier for me. I like a dark deep blue. Bout in the middle of black and blue. Could that be achieved with hot water bluing?

Dixie Gunsmithing · February 4, 2014, 11:18 AM

mattL46,

Well, it's not as dark as the caustic bluing, which turns the steel a deep black. Hot water bluing, or Belgium bluing is a shade lighter, and is blue-black in color. I would say that it is just as good, if not better in looks, than caustic bluing, to be honest.

There is an instruction sheet on this at Brownells, under Dicropan-IM, which is their brand of this bluing chemical. Look under the 'learn' tab for the pdf on this, as it has step by step instructions. The tab's link says its a video, but its not, it's a pdf.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...-prod1067.aspx

I thought I would add this. With any bluing, the metal has to be clean, and that includes not touching it with bear hands after the cleaning. If you do by mistake, you will have a fingerprint in the blue. The metal needs to be clean of all oil and contaminates. Brownells makes what is called 'Dicro-Clean 909, which is a powdered detergent that you mix with water, then boil. I would strongly suggest using this, and handling it with clean gloves after cleaning, and when you apply the chemical.

wachtelhund1 · February 4, 2014, 11:37 AM

I just restored a 100 year old Marlin 27-S, 25-20 and hot rust blued it. It turned out great.

This was my first try at blueing and found it very easy with great results. Hardest part is prep and degressing. Clean with acetone and boil in water for 10 minutes, use gloves when handling to keep oils from your skin off the metal. Apply any of the Rust Blueing products, there are formules on-line for making your rust blueing solutions. I used Brownel's Classic Rust Blueing comes in 4oz bottles and will do about eight or more guns. Wipe it on and let it rust for several hours to a day, depending on temp. Then boil in distilled water, 15 minutes or more. Once dry card off metal, can be done with #0000 washed steel wool or carding wheel. Repeat the process about 7 to 8 times. I had borrowed a carding wheel from my gunsmith, but eventually bought my own from Brownel's, $30.00?. I mounted the carding wheel to a bench grinder with a 1/2" to 3/8' then 3/8 to 1/4" coupler nut. Controlled the bench grinder rpm with a fan control switch. Need 500 to 1,000 rpm. For boiling, I welded up a 6X6X40" tank and then mounted a propane pipe burned under neath the tank, borrowed from my gunsmith.

Restore project, beginning to finish at http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=537486

mattL46 · February 4, 2014, 11:47 AM

Thanks again dixie I'll do just that. And wachetl what an amazing job you did on that sweet little rifle. Hope mine turns out half as good!

longrange08 · February 8, 2014, 12:42 AM

I have no idea where your located. But im in ohio. I let customers do there own work for free if they just pay for the chemicals.You would not have to buy anything and advice would be free and on hand. If you are not local feel free to call me if you ever have any questions. I always say advise is free. i will gladly answer any questions you may have. which is much better than messing something up because you didnt want to ask.I remember when i did not know what i know now, and wish i had someone to ask. My # is 937-580-1133 and my name is Ryan Spence. You can look at my website if you worry im a loon. Spencegunsmithing.com

**4V50 Gary** · February 8, 2014, 11:33 AM

First the key to a good blue job is the polish.

Remove all the scratches and bring it to a bright polish.

Second, if you must blue it at home, try express bluing. It's faster and more durable than a slow rust blue (or browning).

mattL46 · February 11, 2014, 12:12 AM

@ryan I'll definitely think about you if I need to. And Gary I got her shining pretty good now. But some of the pitting is there to stay. Simply just out of reach. Oh well its for fun and experience. Its gonna be a shooter. And even if I screw it up it will look better than it did. I will research express bluing. Thank you kindly!!

February 2, 2014, 04:07 PM	#1
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	Prepping for a Re-blue Few questions here. I have a well used M12 Winchester. The finish is very patchy at best. Some blue is great some is back to white. I was thinking of trying the slow rust method. Ive read that using that method is hard to achieve a glossy finish regardless of the level of polishing. Is this true. I'm after a glossy finish. Also must the existing blue be stripped? Or could I polish to my desired level and leave it remaining? Thanks folks.

February 2, 2014, 05:20 PM	#2
Roughedge Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Location: Monroe,NC Posts: 669	Follow the instructions to the letter and it will turn out shiny. You have to dip and card at least 7 times to get a good job. The better you polish it between dips the better the finish is. If youve never done it or dont have the right equipment its better to have someone do it for you. __________________ The man that die's with the most stuff win's! Last edited by Roughedge; February 6, 2014 at 01:58 PM.

February 4, 2014, 11:18 AM	#16
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	mattL46, Well, it's not as dark as the caustic bluing, which turns the steel a deep black. Hot water bluing, or Belgium bluing is a shade lighter, and is blue-black in color. I would say that it is just as good, if not better in looks, than caustic bluing, to be honest. There is an instruction sheet on this at Brownells, under Dicropan-IM, which is their brand of this bluing chemical. Look under the 'learn' tab for the pdf on this, as it has step by step instructions. The tab's link says its a video, but its not, it's a pdf. http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...-prod1067.aspx I thought I would add this. With any bluing, the metal has to be clean, and that includes not touching it with bear hands after the cleaning. If you do by mistake, you will have a fingerprint in the blue. The metal needs to be clean of all oil and contaminates. Brownells makes what is called 'Dicro-Clean 909, which is a powdered detergent that you mix with water, then boil. I would strongly suggest using this, and handling it with clean gloves after cleaning, and when you apply the chemical. Last edited by Dixie Gunsmithing; February 4, 2014 at 11:36 AM.

February 8, 2014, 12:42 AM	#19
longrange08 Member Join Date: May 12, 2007 Location: dayton oh Posts: 54	bluing I have no idea where your located. But im in ohio. I let customers do there own work for free if they just pay for the chemicals.You would not have to buy anything and advice would be free and on hand. If you are not local feel free to call me if you ever have any questions. I always say advise is free. i will gladly answer any questions you may have. which is much better than messing something up because you didnt want to ask.I remember when i did not know what i know now, and wish i had someone to ask. My # is 937-580-1133 and my name is Ryan Spence. You can look at my website if you worry im a loon. Spencegunsmithing.com __________________ am i the only one who actually wishes zombies do exist, so one day i can actually justify to my girl the crap i buy

February 8, 2014, 11:33 AM	#20
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	First the key to a good blue job is the polish. Remove all the scratches and bring it to a bright polish. Second, if you must blue it at home, try express bluing. It's faster and more durable than a slow rust blue (or browning). __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

February 2, 2014, 06:14 PM	#3
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	I'll do more research. I have no desire to let anyone else do it. You can't learn that way. If I were to ruin this one...well thats just part of it. It'll still break clay.

February 2, 2014, 09:50 PM	#4
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Why not just give it a hot rust blue, or Belgium blue? Art's gun shop is making the original Herter's formula, so all you would need is a hot water tank, a carding wheel, etc,. if you already have a means of polishing it. The guy has a series of videos of the entire process. Rust bluing video: http://www.artsgunshop.com/Video/Rus...ideoPlayer.htm

February 3, 2014, 01:21 AM	#5
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	Dixie I'm not opposed to other ideas if you don't mind elaborating. Hot blueing is out of the question as long as we are talking about traditional hot blues. Tanks salts solutions etc.

February 3, 2014, 02:37 AM	#6
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Hot water bluing, not caustic. Hot water bluing is a faster rust blue which was used on a huge number of guns. With this, you don't need to let the gun sit a long while to rust. You boil the polished part in water to get it hot, take it out, swab on the bluing solution, card with carding wheel, then dip back into the hot water. It takes a few times, but its way faster than slow rust bluing. The video pretty much shows the complete process. I didn't see Art showing the bluing solution on his website now, he must be selling directly to dealers, but Midway has it, along with Brownell's. However, you might give him a ring and buy some.

February 3, 2014, 07:21 AM	#7
sixteenacrewood Member Join Date: January 20, 2013 Posts: 35	Hi Mat If you are going for a "new" look, take the earlier advise and let a pro do it for you, you will be much happier with the outcome. I'm a complete amateur (bubba) but I'm altering/restoring a rusty old pump savage to fit my taste for antique and out of the ordinary things, plus I am a professional woodworker and in need of a hobby, and my shotgun has no collector value and never will. so...that said, here is what I did and am still doing.. I took everything apart. derusted and degreased everything I wanted to refinish. soaked the barrel/receiver,it's milled steel and one piece, in white vinegar for 30 min, bluing came off easy with a light brushing with 0000 steel wool and old tooth brush. Took less than 5 minutes. I was going to use heat and Clorox bleach to rust it but was advised that there was not enough iron content to the steel. so, I mixed a cup of peroxide, tsp vinegar, tsp salt and used this as my rusting solution. It works Very fast, 2-3 minutes, and a light rust forms. rinse off with water and dish liquid to stop it. Do not turn your back on it or it will pit the steel. The steps for this recipe are the same as for any rust blue method out there. Rust, boil, card, repeat, then oil. etc. I chose rust brown, no boiling, and did not buff or polish before rusting, but I wanted an antique brown mat finish. I am on the final step refinishing the stock and fore arm with an ebony stain and tung oil finish. I am sure some will disapprove and this will totally get me in trouble, but I have been having great fun with it, and I love the look of my "new" pump. best of luck

February 3, 2014, 07:34 AM	#8
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I agree, the Belgian blue gives a nice finish and is easy to do yourself. I have used it over the years on older guns that I didn't want to look like they had just been hot blued. It doesn't seem to give that really dark look like a new gun, but is reminiscent of some of the older finishes. You can heat your water on a camp stove and no nasty fumes to deal with. Your polishing job determines how shiny your finished project will look. The finer the polish, the more it will shine when done.

February 3, 2014, 09:47 AM	#9
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	You don't really need to buy a tank to do this, as I saw a guy use a stock pot to heat the receiver, and he made a long tank from a piece of gutter, and two end caps. Evidently silicone gasket caulk will hold up on the caps, like Permatex, where it is designed to be hot. He used a camp stove using propane.

February 3, 2014, 10:19 AM	#10
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	Thanks for the advice everyone. Like I said earlier not interested in a pro job. Youll never learn if you never try. I'm going to research the Belgium blue and the hot blue. Thanks for everyone's input.

February 3, 2014, 08:18 PM	#11
natman Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2008 Posts: 2,605	If you polish the gun it will remove all the old blue. Polishing is the secret. The bluing solution merely changes the color of the metal, the polishing job determines how the gun will look. It has to be shiny and consistent for the job to turn out well. Bluing hides nothing. Every little flaw will show. Be SURE not to over polish. Nothing says "Bubba" like smeared writing and dished out screw holes. I'd recommend wet sanding with 400, then 600 weight sandpaper and light oil. Use the paper on a FLAT surface where possible. It's slower than a buffer wheel, but that's a good thing because it's harder to overpolish. I'd recommend that you practice on something other than a Model 12 first.

February 3, 2014, 11:26 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Rust blue will give a "soft" blue, no matter how well the metal is polished. Any guns made before about 1935 were either rust blued or carbonia blued, the last being used mainly on handguns by Colt and S&W. So look at a WWI Luger or a pre-WWII Model 70 Winchester for rust blue. Krag and early Springfield 1903 rifles were oil blackened, part of the heat treatment process. Jim

February 4, 2014, 01:22 AM	#13
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	Thanks natman but too late. I have a little bit of polishing experience. And some good help. Not just from you fine folks at TFL but my dad has built and helped build many fine firearms so I do have a slight advantage over some of the other "bubbas" its actually going quite well. The corners and angles are all still there and the receiver is about 90% white now and starting to shine. As for bluing hiding anything...thats an unfortunate fact I already knew. Quite a few minor pits in this specimen and a lot of them are going to have to remain. They are just slightly too deep to rub off. I'm pretty well to the finer grit now trying to shine it up. I'll use a wrag wheel sparingly. Then comes the barrel and its family...which I'm not looking forward to. After I decide which avenue of blue to take I'll put on an extra fancy set of walnut that the old man has had lying around for a million years. Then...if all goes well...and I'm not too embarrassed...pictures. @James K thank you for the info...I'm having a hard time deciding which way I want to go. So many options...

February 4, 2014, 01:36 AM	#14
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Matt, Another good example to look at, is double guns, both SxS and O/U, as the barrels are almost always hot water blued this way. Caustic bluing will eat the solder out from between the ribs, so the same hot water bluing we're speaking of is used. You will notice they're not black like caustic bluing is, but have a blueish tint.

February 4, 2014, 09:32 AM	#15
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	Thanks dixie I really appreciate all your time taken for input. I'm leaning towards hot water bluing it sounds a little easier for me. I like a dark deep blue. Bout in the middle of black and blue. Could that be achieved with hot water bluing?

February 4, 2014, 11:37 AM	#17
wachtelhund1 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2007 Location: pelican lake, WI Posts: 413	I just restored a 100 year old Marlin 27-S, 25-20 and hot rust blued it. It turned out great. This was my first try at blueing and found it very easy with great results. Hardest part is prep and degressing. Clean with acetone and boil in water for 10 minutes, use gloves when handling to keep oils from your skin off the metal. Apply any of the Rust Blueing products, there are formules on-line for making your rust blueing solutions. I used Brownel's Classic Rust Blueing comes in 4oz bottles and will do about eight or more guns. Wipe it on and let it rust for several hours to a day, depending on temp. Then boil in distilled water, 15 minutes or more. Once dry card off metal, can be done with #0000 washed steel wool or carding wheel. Repeat the process about 7 to 8 times. I had borrowed a carding wheel from my gunsmith, but eventually bought my own from Brownel's, $30.00?. I mounted the carding wheel to a bench grinder with a 1/2" to 3/8' then 3/8 to 1/4" coupler nut. Controlled the bench grinder rpm with a fan control switch. Need 500 to 1,000 rpm. For boiling, I welded up a 6X6X40" tank and then mounted a propane pipe burned under neath the tank, borrowed from my gunsmith. Restore project, beginning to finish at http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=537486

February 4, 2014, 11:47 AM	#18
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	Thanks again dixie I'll do just that. And wachetl what an amazing job you did on that sweet little rifle. Hope mine turns out half as good!

February 11, 2014, 12:12 AM	#21
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	@ryan I'll definitely think about you if I need to. And Gary I got her shining pretty good now. But some of the pitting is there to stay. Simply just out of reach. Oh well its for fun and experience. Its gonna be a shooter. And even if I screw it up it will look better than it did. I will research express bluing. Thank you kindly!!