Why A Pump Over Auto For Home Defense

[new_scopeshooter]

I have experiance with the 1100 and I understand them. And yes the ones I have had jam.
In my opinion the win 1400 is a better auto then the 1100 rem. I turned one it to a HD
Gun with very little work. I personly have about 2000 rounds through it. That's after I got the gun when my father passed away. A caint even begin to tell you how many rabbits and birds he had shot with it. A much better gun the the new one win has out now.
Again this is my opinon

[Old Grump]

Old Grump. You may well be right and I may be all wrong, but in a situation where there are 3 or 4 armed intruders I suspect one's best chance of survival is avoiding a gun fight. I just don't see a group of armed men being overly concerned with a challenge unless they realize it is backed up by something better than a baseball bat and once you pull the trigger the fight is on.

Fight is on as soon as they break into your house. It is up to them to deescalate it by surrendering or running away. I don't know about your house but I have lights that illuminate my house from kitchen through the dining room to the Living room. The only dark spots are the bedrooms and mine is in the middle of the house. They won't be able to see me but I will be able to see them unless they cut my power. Again I know my own house and people know they are free to come in my house but they announce themselves when they do. If they don't and it is dark thirty then they are presumed to be hostile unless they sing out.

A 4 cell Maglight with the beam focus set on narrow sits on my night stand alongside of my revolver. If I am behind the beam and expecting it advantage mine. A quick on off tells me if it is a shoot/no shoot situation and they are seeing a yellow spot in front of their eyes, night sight done gone kaput. Don't mess with old people, some of us have been to a party and got old anyway. I'm protecting family and that makes me kind of touchy about who I find sneaking around my house.

Seriously it isn't about what gun or what load you have in your hands but the willingness and the ability to deploy it in workman like fashion. I'm not the guy to worry about but the little 5'2" 180 pound middle aged grandma who has been mugged and got her first gun. You don't know what or when or where she is going to shoot so be very very careful about breaking her door down. She might not stop till her Glock 17 is empty. At least with me you have a chance to surrender or run and I won't shoot anymore than necessary.

[lizziedog1]

Those of you worried about reliability, whether pump or self-loader, would you not be better off with a double barrel shotgun. Granted, you will give up the number of shots available, but for utter reliability, can't beat it. And you can't beat a doubles speed either, at least for two rounds.

My point is that no gun is one hundred percent reliable one hundred percent of the time. Close, but no cigar.

[hogdogs]

would you not be better off with a double barrel shotgun

Only if it were an American made unit with exposed hammers... Internal operation is not reliable enuff for me.

Brent

[MrWesson]

price/reliability

A autoloader that I can afford would have questionable reliability.

The burgalar hears you rack the shotgun, knows where you are now and you hear a rack too..

Or you get shot because of lost time racking the shotgun.

[mnero]

Hot dog is right. I have several double barrels all without external hammers and they can fail to fire. My stoeger 20 gauge has never misfired, but my stoeger 12 does so 20% of the time(I have tried to fix it and so has stoeger) I keep a S&W .38 revolver next to the bed. It has never misfired; missed a few times LOL but it wasn't the guns fault

A guard dog is good(if you don't get so attached to it that you feel you have to defend it like you would a child; that is why it won't work for me) Guard dogs can fail, but they usually deter or at least provide an early warning.

[dgludwig]

I have several double barrels all without external hammers and they can fail to fire.

Doubtless that external hammers are the least likely to fail, but double triggered shotguns have separate firing mechanisms and are less likely to fail than shotguns equipped with single selective triggers.

[hogdogs]

I think it boils down to what a man is comfortable with and feels most secure with.

My father has never owned a pump gun or SS or OU EVER! He has had ONE bolt action .410 mossberg that was his first "real gun" as a child. But EVERY other shotgun was a simple single shot.

If my M-500 20ga. ever fails to perform, I would rethink my strategy. This thing is old enuff to drink and has never given me a reason to fear a failure.

Big Jim will cringe again... But a while back I posted about boiling my trigger group since trigger pull went from a bit too stiff to "DANG!!! Is the safety on" due to grunge but it still cycled and fired as it should.

Brent

[lizziedog1]

Have you ever noticed that many professional guide in Africa use double rifles as back-ups? Why? Utter reliability is one reason. You might only get two rounds, but they are pretty close to sure.

Also, in the unlikely one firing pin fails, you have a seperate and independent barrel with its own firing mechanism. If that also fails, it just wasn't your day.

[hornetguy]

I fall into the camp of, if you have it, and have shot it on several occasions, and it hasn't failed, then USE the dang thing. If it's a pump, great. If it's an autoloader, great. A double? Fine, if that's what you are comfortable with.
I don't overthink these things... you can die of ulcers worrying about "what if it decides to fail just when I NEED it" If it is not a chronic "failer", then why would it be more likely to fail at 2:00 am in your living room than at 2:00 pm in the pasture?
ANY machine can fail. Period. Murphy's Law is funny to talk about, but probably has no real bearing on actual reliability. Keep it clean, use it regularly, and it more than likely will work when needed... whether it's a quail or a bad guy.

[Bubba in c.a.]

1) cost. It`s the winner hands down
2) Experience--there are over 20 million pumps out there being used for hunting mostly.
3) Mythology about bad ammo and semi autos being unreliable.
4) Military and police use image. TV.
5) Buyers preference to not learn how to properly clean and lube his weapon.

Is the pump a great HD weapon? You betcha. Almost as good as a semi auto which will cost twice as much, plus the cost of testing ammo to set what your gun likes and a little thinking and elbow grease to maintain it properly.

[Sport45]

And there's nothing more frightening to an intended felon as the sound of a pump action chambering a round.

Said intended felon shouldn't be hearing you rack the shotgun unless you missed with the first shot.

Why would you keep your HD shotgun empty? If you choose a 1911 for HD does the intended felon get to hear you drop the slide?

[dgludwig]

Racking that slide before shooting says one thing loud and clear: "Hey, bad guy-I'm over here, right over here. You might not be able to see me but you can darn well hear me. So now that you know where I'm at, hiding here in the dark, what are you going to do about it?" That's a question that never should have to be asked and one that might have an answer you may not want to hear.
The idea that the sound of a pump shotgun will scare off a committed assailant is not a wise notion to entertain and probably means that some people should watch tv a little less and train a little more.

[Technosavant]

Racking that slide before shooting says one thing loud and clear: "Hey, bad guy-I'm over here, right over here. You might not be able to see me but you can darn well hear me. So now that you know where I'm at, hiding here in the dark, what are you going to do about it?" That's a question that never should have to be asked and one that might have an answer you may not want to hear.

You people arguing this have yet to answer my point.

If somebody hears you rack a shotgun, they know a couple things: 1) You know they are there, 2) You are armed and ready. As you point out, they know your GENERAL direction, but humans can only tell general direction by hearing. We can't turn and fire accurately based on a single sound. Furthermore, who said you needed to be in the same room? The sound is plenty being right around the corner, out of direct line of fire.

If we're assuming a night burglary, then we know the intruder is in the dark and in an unfamiliar place. Unless you expect to be burglarized by Daredevil, at this point the vast majority of them will be beating feet- all the advantages belong to the homeowner. Any burglars of the murderous stripe would have already killed you in your bed before going for the TV anyway.

I'm not saying the sound by itself is the end all be all, but thinking that racking a shotgun will result in your immediate demise is just as foolish.

Said intended felon shouldn't be hearing you rack the shotgun unless you missed with the first shot.

There's very few shotguns with a firing pin safety; most safeties just block the trigger. Leaving the chamber empty and hammer down has the shotgun ready for immediate use without the possibility of the thing falling over and discharging.

[hogdogs]

Everything about my home defense strategy revolves around stealth. It isn't so much about the sound giving away my position or scaring the semi solid excrement out of the bad guy.

I just choose to keep the ball securely in my court. I want the upper hand. And the only bad guy who will hear my voice or gun cycling the action will be Bad-Guy #2!

I think the scariest sound to Bad-Guy #2 will be the sounds made by Bad-Guy #1's lifeless carcass collapsing on my floor!

Brent

[stonewall50]

Have you ever noticed that many professional guide in Africa use double rifles as back-ups? Why? Utter reliability is one reason. You might only get two rounds, but they are pretty close to sure.

Also, in the unlikely one firing pin fails, you have a seperate and independent barrel with its own firing mechanism. If that also fails, it just wasn't your day.

Don't forget the speed of a follow up is much quicker than any other gun.

Oh and guys I store my "HD" shotgun unloaded. My handgun IS loaded, but if I have time to get to a shotgun then I have time to load it. I trust my handgun and I trust the shotgun, but if I hear someone breaking IN that 9mm is alot easier to get at than the shotgun. The shotgun has the ammo right there in the lockbox with it, but the handgun is easier to get ready to go.

[TheKlawMan]

If anyone is worried about giving their position away by racking a round, what happens when you hit the possible BG with the beam of your weapon's light?

For that matter, any comment on the better procedure for using a light? For instance, make sure the safety if off, aim towards the threat, activate the light followed by instantly racking a round. Finger is out of the trigger guard unless actually firing.

[BigJimP]

HogDog is boiling his triggers ..... ....:barf: ....:barf:...:barf: ...( I've failed you Brent ...) ....you're just wasting that fancy Ivy League education ...I've tried to extend to you ??

Come on guys ...quit worrying about giving your position away by racking a gun / or with lights ... /....get out to some "defensive shooting classes" ...and get some time behind those guns ..../ you can train - but you can't tell what's going to happen - until it does. It isn't like they follow a script ...

In the one in a gazillion chance you ever find yourself in this position / with someone breaking into your home --- the meth-head / or whatever is wrong with him or her - has already committed himself ...and if he's as dense as they seem to be on "cops" etc ...racking a gun isn't going to make a difference ! It ins't a sniper exercize ... its a "get out of my house" " I called the police" and if he doesn't run ...and advances on you or your family ....then "bang"...and rack a 2nd round ....and maybe a "double tap" or a "triple tap" just in case....because you were afraid for your life ...and he had a weapon...

I'm not a big fan of lights on a gun / although they have their place - maybe ...but I think most instructors would tell you they have pros and cons.

The single biggest thing you can do to be prepared ...is train ...and be very familiar with your defensive weapon of choice ...so you can manipulate it in pitch darkness ..and load and reload it in a hurry ...and put "tactical accuracy" fire on a target at the ranges that you expect / if you find someone in your home (most experts say its going to be a close confrontation / maybe 6 - 15 feet probably in most homes... ).

To answer your question about me making noise ...no, I'm making noise ...and I'm hollering " get out or I will shoot ..../ and I've called the police " ...and the best thing that can happen is they leave ...and my insurance company cleans up the mess of broken glass or whatever got beat up ....and no shots get fired ...at me / or at them. And I put the 1911 away ...and maybe the cavalry gets there and catches him or them.

Practice, practice, practice - with the defensive gun of your choice ...equipped anyway you want it - with or without lights / and hope you never need it ! I do keep a small flashlight in my sock drawer - next to my "night gun" ...and it would be in my pocket if I needed it when something goes bump in the night. But 99.9% of the time /when something wakes me up ....its a limb hitting the house / the alarm is on ...its just a get up / grab the portable phone - see what's going on. If there is someone outside / call 911...in my community they'll be there in 3 or 4 minutes ...tops .../ and I retreat to my bedroom / close the doors - stay on the phone with the 911 operator - and have my gun in my hand / and put it away when the cavalry shows up!

[C0untZer0]

I've seen videos of Kel-Tec reps firing the KSG. It does seem like a well trained person can send a lotta lead pretty quickly. But I've seen people fire a Benelli M4 more quickly.

On the one hand I tell myself "could a weapon that passed rigorous tests and was adopted by the U.S. Marines not be reliable enough to use as a home defense shotgun?" On the other hand I had personal experience with the M16 and that was adopted by the U.S. Military and I thought M16s were crap - OMG the "Forward Assist" button should be labeled "Our design sucked and the bolt doesn't close so we added this little gem on the side - HAVE FUN!"

I just tend to think now though that modern high-quality auto shotguns are more than reliable enough for home defense.

And just an aside - I think a flash light is a tactical disadvantage for a defender. When law enforcement officers are storming a building in low light conditions they need to command illumination and it is a totally different dynamic. There are so many different factors - they usually are wearing flak jackets, they are (usually) bring numerical advantage to the situation, if they have to return fire - the amount of firepower that they bring to bear is usually overwhelming.

For me I'd probably be in my underwear, hoping to QUITELY arm myself. And personally I'd rather be hunkered in the dark with the intruder backlit - than be using a flashlight. I don't feel safe trying to move with a flashlight - anyone in my house obviuously sees me coming a long time before I see them. They become the defender and I become the target.

Just my opinion.

[chadstrickland]

I have a question..why do y'all keep saying the sound of racking a round will scare them away...what's wrong with already having a shell in the chamber?

[C0untZer0]

What shooter1911 said about picking up an 18.5" barrel for an 1100 caused me to think of one reason a lot of us get a pump for home defense. Besides the reputation a pump has for reliability, how prevalent are short barrel semis?
To me an HD length is no more than 21" and the shorter the better.

You can't get any more compact than the KSG which is coming out, - AO length 26.1", and conversly, the capabilty to shorten up a Benelli M4 is limited and expensive from what I've seen.

Not sure about other pumps, and brings up the issue of shortening semi autos in a way that they are no longer shoulder fired.

It does seem that pumps have the advantage in being shorter.

[Cheapshooter]

And there's nothing more frightening to an intended felon as the sound of a pump action chambering a round.

Way too much Hollywood!!!
The frightening sound an intended felon in my house would hear is a very loud boom!!!
Slide racking looks, and sounds good in movies and TV. Being ready saves your life in a home invasion.

To the OP, I think the reason for the pump over the auto is as mentioned, mostly economic.

[10 Beers]

The 12ga pump is 100% American, that should be enough. I have six and still want more.

[Stevie-Ray]

Not all of us feel that way. I have only one HD shotgun and it's an auto.

[MLeake]

I wouldn't count on the sound saving the day by any means.

But I did meet a guy who scared off a would-be robber during his days as a convenience store clerk, by cycling an old credit-card impression machine under his counter. (BG had a tire iron, not a gun.)

Those things sound a lot like a shotgun.

As far as losing time due to racking the shotgun, I figure if small motor control functions are more impaired by stress than are large motor control functions, I'll probably be faster to rack a slide than I would to find and flick off the cross-bar safety. So, I keep my HD 870 with an empty chamber, safety on "Fire."

It's very easy to rack while bringing the gun to bear.

So, what time is lost? (And if I can't handle the problem with 4x 00 12ga, the missing 5th shell probably won't be a factor.)