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View Poll Results: What would you do?
.223 3 6.00%
.243 19 38.00%
6.5 12 24.00%
Other 16 32.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 23, 2012, 11:03 PM   #1
HDmac
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Long range muti-purpose rifle HELP!

Alright so recently I have decided that I want to purchase myself a rifle to fill in a bit of a gap in my firearms. I have my deer gun, .45-70 and a chipmunk destroyer .22LR. but nothing really in between I want to get into long range rifle shooting, both for target and hunting. So far the best I have come up with is the Savage 12 series rifles. Here's the problem:

I am torn between the 12 FV in .223 and the 12 LRP in .243 OR 6.5. I have never shot any of these rounds personally (yes even the .223) but from what people have told me the .223 is super fun to shoot, but its obviously not really for white tails. I am leaning toward the 12 LRP but still torn between the calibers. I would feel comfortable taking deer with both, but I am concerned that the .243 might not have quite enough reach for target or knockdown power for hunting. The concern for the 6.5 is that it might have too much kick and be $$. I want something that I can shoot for a few hours and not feel any repercussions afterward.

Thoughts on these guns or something better? Top of my budget is about $1,000
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Old May 23, 2012, 11:31 PM   #2
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I shoot 243 in 1000 yard shooting.
panda action and a heart barrel, it does great!
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Old May 23, 2012, 11:35 PM   #3
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The .243 makes fine deer medicine:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1133946AA7ayRM
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Old May 23, 2012, 11:41 PM   #4
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The 243 would probably be the better choice if the price of ammo is not a consideration or if you reload. The 223 will be much cheaper to shoot and will kill any deer on the planet just as dead as your 45-70. You might have to limit your range to under 200 yards, but with the proper bullets it will do the job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY0w1c-gf18

If a 243 will drop an elk at 688 yards, a 223 will have no problem with deer.
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Old May 24, 2012, 12:24 AM   #5
Gary L. Griffiths
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I would be looking for a Remington 700 BDL in .300 Win Mag or 7mm Rem Mag.

I have one in .300 Win -- took my last deer with it at 600 yds across a canyon on the Snake River in eastern Washington.
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Old May 24, 2012, 08:22 AM   #6
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I voted 243. It is an excellent target / varmint round, and it is good on deer size game out to the limits of what most people would shoot. Factory cartridges are not expensive and can be found everywhere.

If 260 Remington was on the list, I would have voted for that. Cartridges are not as easy to find as 243, but they are find-able.

The heaviest .264 projectiles have better ballistics coefficients than the heaviest .243 projectiles. This will not matter until you are shooting/competing at a very high level.

When you say 6.5, I assume you mean 6.5 creedmoor as opposed to something more exotic like 6.5-06 or 6.5-284. The creedmoor cartridges are harder to find than 243 or 260, and they are more expensive.
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Old May 24, 2012, 08:48 AM   #7
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The 6.5 caliber will be your best option either in .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor. The main reason is the way factory rifles are twisted. For the best 6mm bullets you need around a 1:8 or faster barrel twist. Most .243 are 1:9.25 or 1:10 the faster of the two may or may not stabalize the 105 bullets like the A-Max. There is much better bullets that will work without having to go to a custom barrel in the 6.5 caliber.

The .223 will do the long range target shooting as long as you get a 1:9 or faster twist barrel. However, the .223 comes up lacking as a hunting round when compared to your other choices. But it would be the one you could shoot all day at prairie dogs and feel no ill effects.
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Old May 24, 2012, 10:11 AM   #8
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Yes the 243 factory barrels are normally 1:10 twist and wont shoot the 105s. However it will shoot the 87 & 90 Bergers and other match bullets quite well to 1200 yards.

The thing is you can shoot the 243 a lot cheaper then some of the creedmore or simular rounds. The cheaper you can get ammo, the more you can shoot, the more you can shoot, the better you'll be.

I'm working for an upcoming LR match, it requires movements that I don't want to do with my heavy 1000 yard guns, so I've been working with my Wife's 1:10 Model 70 in 243. I'm using 87 gr Bergers at 3050 FPS. It does work.
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Old May 24, 2012, 10:59 AM   #9
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Well it seems everyone is just about as split as I am... while I don't think anyone is debating that both the 6.5 and the 243 are excellent rounds, I suppose I can refine my question as to, do you think that the 6.5 would be comfortable enough to shoot all day? I don't want a round that I am going to be flinching at because of the recoil (as I often do with a 30-06). How much more recoil does the 6.5 have over the .243?

Also, while loudness does not mean that much, it is nice to shoot a quieter gun, avoiding waking up the next town over if I am on my own property

While the price of the ammo should be taken in consideration, I would not fret over $10 extra per box, as I don't shoot as much as I would like to at this point and I am also thinking of reloading sometime in the future.

Thanks for all your excellent responses.
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Old May 24, 2012, 11:06 AM   #10
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You are talking buying ammo, so now I'm going to assume you don't reload.

The 243 will be cheaper and easier to find then the 6.5X55.

The 6.5 will have more recoil but I don't think it would be objectional.

Both are excellent rounds.
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Old May 24, 2012, 11:12 AM   #11
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I have a 12 LRP in .260 and it is a shooter with reloads or factory ammo. The .260 is coming back with more and better factory ammo being offered.
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Old May 24, 2012, 11:14 AM   #12
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Old May 24, 2012, 01:33 PM   #13
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Of the options listed, I would go .243. It is plenty for small to medium sized game, and has plenty of range capability. If an animal is too big for the .243, the 45-70 can pick things up from there.

The 6.5 would cost more to feed, and I don't think it offers enough advantages to be worth the extra money.

The .223 is a bit small for bridging the gap between .22 and 45-70. I won't say that a .223 can't take medium game, but it is too small to be legal for deer in my state, and I believe many other states, as well.

To go off your list just a bit, I like the 7mm-08 as a "bridging" caliber. It doesn't have as much lower range for varmints, but it reaches higher than the .243, meaning it has a bit more oomph for taking elk sized game, and is right in its wheelhouse on medium sized critters like deer and antelope. It is more expensive to feed than the .243, but the jump in power is enough to be worth the extra expense, IMO. As for actual cost, I can find 140 gr soft points in my area for 16.99/box. That is more than comparable quality .243 ammo, and it is certainly not match quality, but it is good enough for practice and should do fine for hunting.
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Old May 24, 2012, 02:12 PM   #14
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@BigMikey76 excellent insight, I am thinking thank I am going to be going for the .243. I figure no matter what caliber I get this 12 LRP in, the 26" bull barrel is going to be able to throw accurate lead down range. Not sure I need the extra bells and whistles of the 6.5, as well as the price. Finding reloading supplies is also going to be easy for the .243.

@kraigwy mentioned that "243 factory barrels are normally 1:10 twist and wont shoot the 105s" The 12 LRP has a 1:9.25 twist for the .243, is that enough to stabilize those 105 grain bullets?
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Old May 24, 2012, 02:28 PM   #15
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I had to vote for the 243 Winchester. It is a great round for deer, has little felt recoil, and ammo is readily available.
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Old May 24, 2012, 06:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
@kraigwy mentioned that "243 factory barrels are normally 1:10 twist and wont shoot the 105s" The 12 LRP has a 1:9.25 twist for the .243, is that enough to stabilize those 105 grain bullets?
It will stabilize some 105's but not all. You should be alright with a 105 Hornady A-Max or Barnes Match Burner . However, it won't stabilize a Berger VLD which needs at least a 1:8 twist. There are others that will work and some that won't, you'll just have to pay attention to the recommended twist by manufacturer.

Quote:
@BigMikey76 excellent insight, I am thinking thank I am going to be going for the .243. I figure no matter what caliber I get this 12 LRP in, the 26" bull barrel is going to be able to throw accurate lead down range. Not sure I need the extra bells and whistles of the 6.5, as well as the price. Finding reloading supplies is also going to be easy for the .243.
If your choice was a .260 it isn't any more difficult to find reloading supplies for than the .243 Win. Online you can find stuff in stock all day long. Plus there isn't any price difference to speak of in bullet prices between .243 and .264 caliber bullets.

So now that you have a few options out there you need to weigh pros and cons.

OP's experience with rifles is a .22 LR and .45-70.
OP's criteria for the rifle is(if I'm reading this right):

Factory Ammunition (to start)
Long Range Target Shooting
Hunting deer sized game
Low Recoil for multiple shots


Choices of chambering from the poll are .223, .243, 6.5, or other. Lets throw out the .223 since the .243 and 6.5 are better for hunting. So that leaves other, and Te Anau mentioned the .308 Win which would be a great choice as well. So lets say the choices are the .243 Win, .260 Rem, and .308 Win.

Factory Ammunition (from Midway USA):
1. .308 Win 174 choices (PRO) didn't want to separate but the .308 had the most hunting and match rounds
2. .243 Win 62 choices (PRO) 44 hunting, 3 Match/Target, and 13 Varmint/Other
3. .260 Rem 22 choices (CON) 18 hunting, 4 Match/Target

One of the .243 loads from CorBon with 115 grain DTAC bullets can't be used in the Savage. However, Hornady makes target ammunition in 105 grain A-Max that wasn't listed. All three choices of ammunition had loads with Berger "Hunting" VLD bullets that could pull double duty as target loads but I left them in the hunting category.

Long range Target Shooting (most choices match ammunition @ Midway USA):

1. .308 Win (PRO)
2. .260 Rem (CON)
3. .243 Win (CON)

Neither round could match the .308 for sheer numbers of different loadings of different match bullets. However the .260 had one more choice than the .243 Win so it gets placed higher.

Hunting deer sized game:

1. .308 Win (Pro)
2. .260 Rem (Pro)
3. .243 Win (Pro)

All are very good choices in cartridge for deer, however I feel bullet choices are better in the .308 and 6.5 calibers than the 6mm for all around hunting, and if the OP ever wants to go for animals bigger than deer.

Low Recoil for multiple shots in a day:

1. .243 Win
2. .260 Rem
3. .308 Win

Simple physics wins out here if all rifles are the same then the rifle that shoots the largest bullet is going to loose this match. Again the OP shoots a .45-70 for deer and all should have less recoil and he should be able to tolerate more rounds down range out of any of the three when compared to what he already shoots. If the OP shoots the .45-70 well there is a good chance that he can shoot any of the other three well.
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Old May 24, 2012, 06:35 PM   #17
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@taylorce1 wow those are some pretty good pro/con choices there!

Be careful however, I think you are converting the 6.5 creedmoor to .260 for ease however the Savage 12 is offered in .243 win .260 rem AND 6.5 creedmoor, so not sure which one you are talking about Also, I think I am going to stay away from the .308 as it is not offered in the 12 FV or 12 LRP (pretty sure I am going to get one of the two, most likely the LRP)

As far as recoil i certainly don't "shoot" my .45-70 lol, i sight it in and shoot deer but it is far too large to shoot more than a box without discomfort. It is strictly a hunting gun. I also have shot a few boxes of .30-06, witch is equally powerful in recoil. (mind you both DO have steel but-plates lol)

Personally, I really enjoy shooting skeet with my 12ga, I can shoot that with no discomfort, as far as recoil goes, although that gun is much softer than other 12ga. (benelli SBE2) with 2 3/4" shells. HOWEVER when I go turkey hunting with it and use the 3 1/2" shells, that would not be something I would go and shoot for fun.

Thanks for your insight, greatly appreciated!
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Old May 24, 2012, 06:52 PM   #18
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You mentioned 6.5 and I knew that Savage had both the 6.5 Creedmoor and the .260 Rem. Both are 6.5 calibers however the .260 has a lot more choices for it right now. The Creedmoor is new and only Hornady is making ammunition for it at the moment. Since you don't reload yet the .260 is a far better choice right now than the Creedmoor.

If you search for postings by Zak Smith here you'll see a very good write up on 6.5 calibers, he has tried them all and the .260 is his favorite. Plus he has a ton of good stuff on shooting long range. I recommend you read his articles, I can't afford the stuff he shoots but it does give me a ton of great ideas.
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Old May 24, 2012, 08:26 PM   #19
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I looked at some of his stuff, good insight. I suppose it really is between the .243 win and .260 rem. The question I have to ask myself is, do I need the extra power, if yes then is it worth the recoil... but that's where the 6.5 fits in, inbetween...

If anyone as any knowlage as to how much the .260 kicks vs a 12ga or a 30-06 it would be helpful to know for a reference. Too bad I don't know anyone with a .260 so I could try it out. Another thing that I have to think about is that the 12 LRP does weigh 11lbs on its own which should lessen the recoil even more.

Edit: Alright, I think I have all the info I need, keep the votes going though! My mind is doing circles between these 3 rounds, ile probably decide when I walk though the door to order it lol. Really can't go wrong with the 243,260 or 6.5. Ammo prices and availability in my area might be the deciding factor.

Last edited by HDmac; May 24, 2012 at 08:48 PM.
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Old May 24, 2012, 08:58 PM   #20
taylorce1
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Chuck Hawks has a recoil table, here are some figures from it:



Sorry no 12ga to compare on this recoil table.
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Old May 24, 2012, 09:02 PM   #21
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Those recoil tables are god-like, never knew about that site lol!
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Old May 24, 2012, 10:18 PM   #22
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remember when looking at recoil tables that there is an assumed rifle weight that goes into the math that makes the table. Those smart guys made an estimate of the average weight of a rifle in each caliber.

Weight makes a huge difference. A 6 lb 30-06 is almost un-shootable (for me), but a 9.5 lb 30-06 is no big deal.
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Old May 24, 2012, 10:44 PM   #23
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Might take a look at the 25-06. IMO its one of the best muti-purpose rounds you can get.Fast,flat,low recoil Whitetail killin rifle whatam,Its sure worth a look.
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Old May 25, 2012, 12:54 PM   #24
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Alright did a little research last night, as far as ammo prices in my area, .243 is obviously the most abundant and cheapest, however I found the 6.5 creedmore to be cheaper and more abundant than the .260 surprisingly.. I think I made my mind up about what caliber I am going to order:

6.5mm creedmore

Because-
Cheaper than .260 (where I am)
6.5mm bullets are easy to find for reloading
uses same hand load powder that you can buy at the store
extremely high bullet coefficient
more knockdown power than .243
lower recoil than .260
magnum-like capabilities
a nice modern round in general

the only cons I could justify-
Hornady ammo only at this time
brass is pricey
possibility round might die off -this is the only one that really scares me, I will just have to make sure I get a bunch of brass and dies if it starts to fall off.
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Old May 25, 2012, 02:06 PM   #25
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I got a FVSS in a 223. shot so nice i got a 308 in FVSS to go with it. Very accurate rifles. As for caliber...223 is ok,but for deer--You better have great shot placement. 223--not really what you call a long range bullet.
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