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October 3, 2010, 10:31 AM | #1 |
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Legal issues with "using" a SBR?
I don't currently own any NFA items. I'm 48, ex-Army, long time shooter and gun collector. I have my CCW and live in OK.
I've heard for years that it was a very bad idea legally to get a legal full auto "anything" and then use it for personal defense. Even if you didn't get any criminal charges, the civil case would be daunting. So if you collect machine guns.... keep something else to defend your castle. I'm having a custom AR-15 pistol built right now. I'm going to enjoy it, I'm sure since it will give me a couple of my long term goals. And under OK law, it will be legal to keep in a car or truck since it will be covered by my CCW. A loaded rifle or shotgun in OK is verboten, even a rifle or shotgun that is unloaded but has loaded mags "within reach." So I can carry my normal CCW and have a loaded AR-15 pistol nearby that uses the same caliber and same magazines. But the lure of the SBR is strong. I've been thinking about filling out the paperwork and changing over the new pistol. But there are problems with that. I came here for some answers! Strike number one is that it would kill the OK legal advantage. Wouldn't be legal to carry loaded or with loaded mags in a vehicle. I _might_ be able to live with that since I can always use something else. But then that got me thinking about my statement about about not using a legal full auto for "serious social use." What do NFA enthusiasts say about SBR's for such things? Do people buy them and register them but then only use them for shooting games and the range? Thanks, Gregg |
October 3, 2010, 11:47 AM | #2 |
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IF you have a lawfully registered NFA firearm and use it in a lawful shooting, there is no issue what so ever.
On the civil side, some ambulance chasing attorney of questionable parentage MAY try and say you thought you were SWAT/Rambo/Navy SEAL Commando and purposefully bought it to be "More Lethal".....but deadly force is deadly force. Any time you use or simply deploy a firearm, you are putting EVERYTHING you own and cherish at risk. Being able to explain it to 12 rather than being carried by your six best friends is the desired outcome. |
October 3, 2010, 11:59 AM | #3 |
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From a legal perspective, there has been research done by TFL's own Glenn E. Meyers that suggests the type of weapon used in a defensive shooting can negatively affect you both in terms of getting a guilty verdict and getting a higher sentence with that verdict.
I can't find the link at the moment; but I bet if you PM him he can send it to you. Of course that assumes a shooting where the facts are unclear enough that it goes to a jury. If you use the SBR to break up a terrorist attack on the local mall, you will be all right. If it turns out your SBR is used in a road rage disagreement where the loving and caring father of 4 tries to tune you up with a tire iron, you might have a big problem. |
October 3, 2010, 04:31 PM | #4 |
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my 2 cents
You can make the same argument with using a suppressor during a home invasion... I have them on just about everything I own for the simple reason that should I need to use one my ear drums arnt going to be bleeding after a double tap. Legally im in the clear but will I be labeled as a want to be assassin or a law abiding citizen defending his home, property, and loved ones at the same time protecting his hearing? well with this liberal country im sure you can guess but I don’t give a crap about what people think and ill be more than happy to standup for myself in court. But then again thank god for Texas finally giving us the castle doctrine.
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October 3, 2010, 06:23 PM | #5 | |
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Quote:
And just because the effect it might have on the jury may be unmeasurable (except to the jury), that doesn't mean it isn't there. |
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October 3, 2010, 07:10 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
Honestly, I don't consider it a big issue in the case of a full auto firearm. I just wouldn't use such a thing in the normal course of events. Now if it was TEOTWAWKI, sure. But I wasn't sure how NFA people viewed SBR's in this context. Seems like _less_ of an issue but still.... I just wondered if I was going to be turning my AR into basically a range toy. Gregg |
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October 3, 2010, 09:14 PM | #7 | |
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Recommend you look up and read this:
Quote:
Had he used a semi-auto, it is doubtful charges would have been filed. Caveat Emptor!
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Violence is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and valorous feeling which believes that nothing is worth violence is much worse. Those who have nothing for which they are willing to fight; nothing they care about more than their own craven apathy; are miserable creatures who have no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the valor of those better than themselves. Gary L. Griffiths (Paraphrasing John Stuart Mill) |
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October 4, 2010, 05:26 AM | #8 |
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http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html
Very good example of one using NFA weapon(among others) to defend his homestead. There is also a bit in there about what Mr. Beckwith had to go through after the incident. Not fun. But if it was me, and if the paperwork was all there, I wouldn't hesitate to use my NFA weapon to defend myself and/or loved ones. Increase your chance at surviving the incident, worry about the legal repercussions when you're still alive at the end of it all. One threat at a time, my friend. -One man's opinion, Chris Last edited by MisterWhite; October 4, 2010 at 05:40 AM. |
October 4, 2010, 05:40 AM | #9 |
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http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/sbr-aow-pistol.html
remember+one point to consider since you're undecided: in the future the law might change not in your favor. *you'll probably at least be able to keep it in your home even if it ever gets banned someday due to grandfather clause
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October 4, 2010, 06:29 AM | #10 |
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If you own a NFA weapon and it is the best weapon you own or have timely access to during a crisis for self defense, then that is the weapon you should be using. Your first job is to survive the incident.
If you are prosecuted, the gun and ammo will undoubtedly become an issue at trial. Even Harold Fish's simple revolver and 10mm ammo were an issue at trial originally. So the issue will come up.
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October 4, 2010, 09:26 AM | #11 |
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My home D carbine is an 11.5" SBR. Any weapon you pick could be an issue if someone wants to paint it in a bad light. So I just pick the best weapon for me, and I don't worry about it.
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October 4, 2010, 09:54 AM | #12 | |
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Quote:
For me, I decided that my NFA items don't give me a significant advantage in a normal fight. If this was a true SHTF, that might change. |
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October 4, 2010, 04:58 PM | #13 |
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Recheck your Oklahoma self defense act. In Ok if you have a CCW you can legally carry a rifle or shotgun with a loaded magazine in your vehicle. You can't have a round in the chamber of a rifle or shotgun however. You might also look more closely at the at pistol. There has been some discussion on the Oklahoma shooters forums whether an ar pistol actually qualifies to be carried as a pistol.
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October 7, 2010, 06:04 PM | #14 |
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Of course everyone overlooked the fact that generally a weapon used in a shooting will be taken by the police for testing. I really, REALLY don't want to lose any of my NFA guns for an extended period of time!
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October 7, 2010, 07:01 PM | #15 | |
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Quote:
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October 7, 2010, 10:23 PM | #16 | |
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Quote:
Why are you worried only about losing the NFA guns? What about the non NFA gun you would use? Do you really want to lose your $800 1911? Perhaps one should use a Jennings or a baseball bat for defense since their loss will not be as harshly felt economically. Needlessly cheaping out on a defensive gun makes as much sense as a skydiver cheaping out on his reserve parachute. If all you can afford is a single shot shotgun, fine, but if you're buying $1,500 AR's then you need to make sure you have something better.
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October 11, 2010, 09:35 AM | #17 |
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Agreed on the weapon seizure. Losing your weapon for a little while is the least of concerns. Weapons get lost... Big Deal. They'll make more. I keep a couple of SBRs. If one got taken temporarily, bid deal!
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October 13, 2010, 08:13 PM | #18 |
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Home defense rifle is a Colt 6933 11.5" AR15, obviously a NFA weapon. It is augmented by a AAC M4-1000 supressor, also obviously a NFA device. My rational is that the SBR with supressor is about the same length as a traditional 16" gun and easily maneuverable in the house. Should I have to fire in the enclosed environment, the supressor may spare me some permanent hearing damage.
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October 14, 2010, 09:13 PM | #19 |
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In Oklahoma the max CCW caliber you can carry is 44mag. anything bigger is illeagle!
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October 26, 2010, 10:04 AM | #20 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
And I don't get the last sentence at all. An AR pistol or an AK pistol or any other kind of pistol is still a handgun. I wouldn't want to try carrying one under my coat but it sure as heck should be legal to carry loaded in my car. It should be covered by my CCW. I don't see how that can be in doubt? IMO, that could only be an issue if some OK law actually "defined a handgun" in a different way than the Federal definition. I think it is Michigan that does that but I've never heard of OK doing it? Gregg |
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October 26, 2010, 10:14 AM | #21 | |
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http://www.oscn.net/applications/osc...?CiteID=440210
Quote:
Gregg |
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October 29, 2010, 09:27 AM | #22 |
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I own a few machine guns the cheapest of which is $7,000. If you are involved in a shooting the police usually collect the gun for evidence. Do you want your gun to be stored for a undetermined length of time under less the ideal conditions? I would rather use an easily replaceable gun.
By the way in some cases they have been know to scratch case ID numbers into the gun metal, do you want your expensive machine gun permanently disfigured? |
October 29, 2010, 10:00 AM | #23 |
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I just read all the other posts, and a Remington $300 870 would do the job equally as well if not better than my $30,000 Thompson. I can go out and replace my Remington a lot easier than the Thompson and I don't care if someone uses a vibrating engraving tool to etch a case number into my Remington. I also own a 9MM and a .22 caliber calico semi-autos (both with 100 round magazines) I would choose the 9MM calico if the Remington was not handy.
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October 29, 2010, 11:03 AM | #24 | |
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Quote:
All that stuff is easily replaced relative to surviving a shooting. I mean.. they're just guns! It's not like they're perishable items. And they aren't going to store them in a salt water bath or something. My local PD puts trigger tags on the gun and bags the pistols. And their property room is nice! |
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October 29, 2010, 12:00 PM | #25 |
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I have seen and heard of mutilation of fire arms by law enforcement using a vibrating marker tool, I did a google search but couldn't find any examples. Maybe I used the wrong search words but there is no doubt it happened because I have seen it.
I am a retired cop and when I was injured on the job I had to turn in my guns because I was unable to do my yearly qualification. I was very reluctant to turn in my personal guns to my own department but I oiled them and packed them as well as I could and when I got them back they were in the same condition they were when I surrendered them. But these guns were not part of evidence of a shooting, who knows what would have happened under different circumstances. |
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