The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 11, 2014, 10:39 PM   #26
Doc Intrepid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2009
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,037
The nice thing about having a safe is that you can put things other than guns in it.

Remember the saying about an ounce of prevention being better than a pound of cure?

If you have some passive aggressive relative who would love to cause you grief, particularly when all they have to do to cause you grief is simply show up at your place when you're not home, it's worth the price of a gun safe to head that crap off at the pass. How much is your peace of mind worth?
__________________
Treat everyone you meet with dignity and respect....but have a plan to kill them just in case.
Doc Intrepid is offline  
Old April 12, 2014, 03:11 AM   #27
Dreaming100Straight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2013
Posts: 1,235
I was looking at something and I think a gun lock definitely can be a problem. A felon is prohibited from having either possession or control. While you can argue that he doesn't have full control if the gun is secured with a DOJ gun lock, if they can pick it up they are in possession and can more easily take the gun someplace where the can more easily drill the lock or cut a cable.

You didn't say anything about this, but if you are concerned that he is such an AH that he would visit just so he can get you in trouble for allowing him access to firearms, I wouldn't trust him not to be dealing drugs out of your home.
Dreaming100Straight is offline  
Old April 12, 2014, 08:03 AM   #28
Willie Lowman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Location: Uh-Hi-O
Posts: 3,006
Buy a proper gun safe. That's all there is to it.

Last edited by Evan Thomas; April 12, 2014 at 08:20 AM. Reason: removed snark.
Willie Lowman is offline  
Old April 13, 2014, 11:35 PM   #29
Koda94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 1,288
Quote:
I was looking at something and I think a gun lock definitely can be a problem. A felon is prohibited from having either possession or control. While you can argue that he doesn't have full control if the gun is secured with a DOJ gun lock, if they can pick it up they are in possession and can more easily take the gun someplace where the can more easily drill the lock or cut a cable.
If you can put a cable lock on a gun you can put another one on to secure it to something immovable. I'm not saying cable locks or trigger locks are not easily defeated or the best solution, but I'm saying if you cant afford a safe there are very affordable ways to prevent unauthorized access. I dare say if one can afford a firearm one can afford a $10 cable lock, or two, and secure it to something solid or impractical to remove in a hurry. This at a bare minimum solves the problem and removes all liability if they do cut the cables.
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Koda94 is offline  
Old April 14, 2014, 12:33 AM   #30
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koda94
This at a bare minimum solves the problem and removes all liability if they do cut the cables.
How can you possibly prove that they cut the cable?
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old April 14, 2014, 03:13 AM   #31
Dreaming100Straight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2013
Posts: 1,235
You don't have to prove the felon cut the lock. Anyone charging has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you permitted the felon to possess or control a firearm. If a gun lock is good enough, and I do not know that it is, they have to prove you cut the cable. You do not have to prove that you did not cut it.
Dreaming100Straight is offline  
Old April 14, 2014, 10:25 AM   #32
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,434
Quote:
You don't have to prove the felon cut the lock. Anyone charging has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you permitted the felon to possess or control a firearm. If a gun lock is good enough, and I do not know that it is, they have to prove you cut the cable. You do not have to prove that you did not cut it.
I disagree.

We're talking about a relative who is reportedly prepared to lie to create problems for the OP.

If the guns are locked in a safe or a "gun case" [think Stack-On, for example], the guy would have to physically damage the container to access the guns. That damage would be obvious to any investigator.

Cable gun lock? Cut the cable, take the lock and the gun down the street, discard the cut lock in any dumpster behind any Quik Mart. Parole officer finds the felon with a gun, felon says, "Yeah, my cousin's husband OP gave it to me."

Now how do you prove he's lying?

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; April 14, 2014 at 03:59 PM. Reason: punctuation
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old April 14, 2014, 02:23 PM   #33
Koda94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 1,288
Aguila is correct, that’s why I said its not the best solution I’m just saying its better than nothing. The sentiment I was getting (correct me if wrong) is the OP doesn’t want to… or cant buy a safe so I’m assuming there is a money issue with that, but its not like there are no options that are affordable.

*

*I agree that if the thief wasn’t just trying to steal but also to screw over the OP then he would also take the cut lock evidence with him… if that’s the suspicion then for me there would be no discussion come hell or high water with the wife there would be no invite whether the OP is at home or not, that’s where the real issue is in thiscase... I would get the discussion out of the way.
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Koda94 is offline  
Old April 14, 2014, 06:26 PM   #34
Librarian
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2007
Location: Concord, CA
Posts: 193
A number of on-point resources are available, for example

US Sentencing Commission - http://www.ussc.gov/Legal/Primers/Primer_Firearms.pdf

as well as any number of cases returned by search for "18 U.S.C. § 922(g) felon in possession".
__________________
See the CALGUNS FOUNDATION Wiki for discussion of California firearms law.

The FAQ page is here.
Librarian is offline  
Old April 14, 2014, 09:10 PM   #35
Daugherty16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2008
Location: Live Free or Die state
Posts: 259
Safes come in many styles, sizes and prices

Get the most safe you can afford.

If you forego the fireproof aspect of a gun safe, the prices drop substantially. Some, like the cheapo Stack-on and others, are glorified filing cabinets but - this is important - i believe California accepts them as appropriate storage. They're not expensive, easy and quick to install, and you have the added advantage of having provided a barrier to any unauthorized use or theft.

if you can afford more, more is good. thick plate steel, fireproof ratings, cool paint jobs, all can be had for the right price. Bolted to the floor and the wall studs, they'll help hold the house up in an earthquake and keep your guns safe in a house fire.

Anyway, to access a firearm stored in even the cheapo cabinet, someone will leave definite signs of forced entry and you've got a pretty good defense against improper storage.
__________________
"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness... How pathetic." - - Ted Nugent

"Cogito, Ergo Armitum Sum" - (I Think, Therefore I Am Armed)- - anon.

Last edited by Evan Thomas; April 15, 2014 at 03:10 PM. Reason: invective.
Daugherty16 is offline  
Old April 15, 2014, 01:52 AM   #36
Dreaming100Straight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2013
Posts: 1,235
Quote:
Cable gun lock? Cut the cable, take the lock and the gun down the street, discard the cut lock in any dumpster behind any Quik Mart. Parole officer finds the felon with a gun, felon says, "Yeah, my cousin's husband OP gave it to me."

Now how do you prove he's lying?
Again. The prosecution has to prove every element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. All it has the word of the felon, who is also facing theft charges (I don't know if it is burglary) for stealing your gun. A prior felony is admissible to impeach the guy. The wife should be able to testify that the gun was locked with a cable gun lock. You might also have proof of purchase of the lock with a credit card or receipt. All agree that a safe is better and the sturdier the better. You can also get the kind of locking cable that is bonded with epoxy to a metal frame as though it was welded.
Dreaming100Straight is offline  
Old April 15, 2014, 11:28 AM   #37
Scimmia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2011
Location: Eastern IA
Posts: 428
Quote:
Again. The prosecution has to prove every element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. All it has the word of the felon, who is also facing theft charges (I don't know if it is burglary) for stealing your gun. A prior felony is admissible to impeach the guy. The wife should be able to testify that the gun was locked with a cable gun lock. You might also have proof of purchase of the lock with a credit card or receipt. All agree that a safe is better and the sturdier the better. You can also get the kind of locking cable that is bonded with epoxy to a metal frame as though it was welded.
And all of that happens after you're arrested, spend some time in jail, and spend thousands on a lawyer.
Scimmia is offline  
Old April 15, 2014, 10:24 PM   #38
WyMark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 647
I'm going to look at a cheap Stack-on, haven't found one locally yet but I can get one shipped to Wal-mart if I have to. It's heavy enough that if it was turned to face the wall this person wouldn't be able to turn it enough to open it. But I'll probably spend a couple hundred more and get something that's at least somewhat secure instead.

While I was looking at safes I came across this article on Forbes, "Unsafe Gun Safes Can Be Opened By A Three Year Old", and wondered if anyone had an opinion or comment. The linked article contains pretty disturbing videos of a young child opening several of these safes. I think my handgun safe may be one of these types, but at least it's bolted to the wall.
WyMark is offline  
Old April 15, 2014, 11:17 PM   #39
colbad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2012
Posts: 506
I think you are looking at this kind of backwards. It is incumbent on the felon not to possess a firearm. This would most likely violate his parole and certainly violate federal law.

If he is in a position where he can put his dirty little hands on a firearm....he is in constructive possession. Personally, I would let them know that you have firearms and he could be violated with his parole officer (assuming he has a tail) just for being in a house with firearms. Should also let him know that he could also be prosecuted for constructive possession. If that does not scare him away, its on his head not yours.
colbad is offline  
Old April 15, 2014, 11:21 PM   #40
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,434
That video isn't even in English. I don't put a lot of credence in it. That said, I also don't like electronic, digital locks. For a "safe," I prefer a traditional, rotary dial. For a less expensive gun storage cabinet, Stack-On has a full line of cabinets that lock with keys, and there isn't any three-year-old who's going to open one of them buy bumping the cabinet a couple of times.

http://www.stack-on.com/categories/s...s-gun-cabinets

The doubles are handy -- one side for long guns, the other side for handguns.



Can they be broken into by a moderately motivated person with simple tools? Yes -- but not without leaving clear evidence that the cabinet was broken into. Not recommended for absolute theft protection, but more than adequate for satisfying legal requirements for locking up guns, and for keeping honest people honest.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old April 18, 2014, 01:19 PM   #41
Dreaming100Straight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2013
Posts: 1,235
Quote:
I think you are looking at this kind of backwards. It is incumbent on the felon not to possess a firearm. This would most likely violate his parole and certainly violate federal law.

If he is in a position where he can put his dirty little hands on a firearm....he is in constructive possession. Personally, I would let them know that you have firearms and he could be violated with his parole officer (assuming he has a tail) just for being in a house with firearms. Should also let him know that he could also be prosecuted for constructive possession. If that does not scare him away, its on his head not yours.
Since the OP can be charged with aiding and abetting, it's on both their heads! Go back and read Post 12 above referencing what Frank Ettin had to say about an owner being liable for aiding and abetting and then read the OP's concern that this guy may even try to

Quote:
The point in that case, United States v. Huet, 665 F.3d 588 (3rd Cir., 2012), was that the gun the prohibited person was charged with possessing was not secured against the prohibited person's access, supporting both the prohibited person's conviction for unlawful possession of a gun and the indictment of his cohabitant.

Last edited by Dreaming100Straight; April 18, 2014 at 01:26 PM.
Dreaming100Straight is offline  
Old April 18, 2014, 06:18 PM   #42
colbad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2012
Posts: 506
Cases like Huet are generally fact specific. I have been involved in similar cases where the principle resident was charged for making FAs available to a felon. You cannot put guns around your house for your prohibited felon friends to have access, and claim "my house" "my guns" not his. Your intentional actions not to limit access to the guns is the key to whether one is an accessory or not. You will not be in violation of the law by simply having guns in your house should a felon visit you. Intentionally leaving them for ready access by the felon or putting them where he can easily take possession is another story. Use common sense, put them away, close/lock the bedroom door, etc. just don't have them on display. If you do not like having to go these extra steps, keep felons, even family felons out of your home.
colbad is offline  
Old April 18, 2014, 07:01 PM   #43
BigBL87
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2014
Location: Tonica, IL
Posts: 473
If you're looking for a small safe for long guns, this is what I bought:

http://www.amazon.com/American-Furni.../dp/B00843USOI

Holds my Mossberg 500 and shells, extra barrel, a machete, and a small dessicant pail with no problem. If you have more room I'd get something bigger, but for what I needed and our space concerns it was/is the perfect solution. I'm going to add a 22 rifle eventually and there's room left for that, but not much more. I'd say you could fit 4 long guns for sure and a 5th if you really try.
BigBL87 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.06806 seconds with 10 queries