Fire Department Advisory

[federali]

Gun powder burns, it doesn't explode. Outside of a gunpowder making facility with tons of the stuff on hand, or a fireworks factory, I have never once heard of reasonable amounts of powder, primers or loaded ammo being a factor in a fire causing additional injury.

In fact, wall paneling, the stuff people put up because they don't want to paint, burns fast, hot and emits toxic fumes. It's more dangerous than your reloading supplies as it makes a fire less survivable and shortens the time you have to get family out of the house.

Sometimes it's best not to stir the pot. You may find that many municipalities have ordinances against storing more than a specified of ammunition in a residence. It could be as low as a hundred rounds.

[Hammerhead]

Sometimes it's best not to stir the pot.

Good advice.

I burned off an old pound of Green Dot once, was surprised at how slowly it burned. The heat was impressive though.

Loaded ammo is not very dangerous. The Myth Busters did an episode on it. Very entertaining. It's on Youtube.

[jimbob86]

Provided there is noone trapped inside the structure it is doubtful anyone is going inside if it is engulfed.

Depends entirely upon the policies and leadership of the Department involved. Our VFD has a pretty agressive policy, and I have been inside several "fully involved" buildings ....... we don't save them all, but we have saved parts of some....

The only thing I have seen explode (most things like gas grill propane tanks and welding gas bottles have blow off vents that vent the contents before they burst the container- lotsa pretty colors, but no booms) was a CO2 tank for a keggerator...... exploded inside a garage and flew out past me and and another guy on a hose line and and landed 20 or 30 feet down the driveway, turning nearly inside out in the process........

The correct answer is to talk to your local fire chief.

[medalguy]

Anybody ever read the SAAMI books on PROPER storage of powder and primers? Here's a link and a quote from each:

primers:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...01-Primers.pdf

Recommended Storage of Primers

Storage cabinets containing only primers are recommended.
These cabinets should be ruggedly constructed of lumber
at least 1” nominal thickness to delay or minimize the
transmission of heat in the event of fire. SAAMI recommends
against storing primers in sealed or pressurized containers.

powder:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...ess_Powder.pdf

11-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities
not exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in original
containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg), but not
exceeding 50 lb. (22.7 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in residences
where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least
1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.

As long as these recommendations are followed, there is absolutely no reason to worry about the safety of firefighters. As has already been mentioned, they are in far more danger from propane tanks, gasoline cans, and aerosol cans of paint we all have in our garages, not to mention all the pesticides and cleaners stored all over the house. Firefighters are well protected in turnout gear, and the fact that powder will simply burn, not explode, poses little or no risk. Storage in a wooden cabinet will delay any involvement of primers or powder for a good while.

[dunerjeff]

wrap that cabinet in 1/2" or 5/8" sheetrock and it is even more fireresistant.

[briandg]

That saami post is correct. The reason for wood is twofold. First, wood actually insulates, even if it is on fire, it will stay cooler inside than a steel cabinet wood. Second, a steel cabinet with a tight seal will hole pressure and eventually explode when a quantity of powder goes off, where a wooden cabinet will blow apart at the joints and vent gasses more safely.

Saami has always required open seamed metal cans, instead of soldered seams, and now, plastic and water proofed cardboard are the standard. as was said, no explosive primers in with the powder, for several reasons. Separate cabinet.

It's a shame that we can't use asbestos anymore. You could get sheets of flexible asbestos that were awfully handy.

[dunerjeff]

You can get adhesive back heat shielding for protecting components around exhaust pipes that are made to withstand something like 1000F.That would work great for something like this also.It is formable around any shape, plus it's not known in california to cause cancer.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Unless you're storing HE cannon shells or bombs, it's not something I would even worry about. The temps and toxins already involved in a fully involved house fire are far above 20-30 pounds of powder and primers.

As mentioned before, the gas tanks for your lawnmower and such are far more dangerous. The folks who show up are protected, trained, and ready to deal with normal house contents, which would include reloading supplies.

[er775]

if the house is already fully engulfed I`d say the powder and primers already went BOOM before the fire dept even gets there just sayin

[swmike]

Give this some rational thought. There are all kinds of things that "explode" in a house when it's on fire. Just about any can of food will do so when the steam forms inside the can. Likewise or bottles of various products and then there's all that glass flying around.

I can remember an article in one of the "Outdoor" magazines back in the 50's where this subject was explored. Bullets and cases don't travel very far when the ammo is cooked off and when it does impact something it doesn't have the same velocity to do damage as it does when fired from a weapon.

That 5-gallon can of gasoline people store in their garage for the lawnmower has more explosive potential than most ammunition.

I've got a better idea. Rather than notify the Fire Department, put some effort into fire safety in your house and the reloading area. Homes don't usually spontaneously break into fire, there is more often than not a cause that is attributed to some form of negligence on the owner's part.

[saands]

Only one or two weapons are lying around with a round in the chamber, not much danger there.

As a former VFF myself, this is the scariest thing that I have read in this post ... much scarier than 50 pounds of smokeless on a shelf in a room that's getting hot ... that is one or two rounds being fired at full velocity when they cook off ... there is plenty of danger there and that is why I store my one or two "ready" HD weapons with full mags but nothing in the chamber. We are all responsible for every round we send downrange, and the fact that we are not holding the firearm when it happens doesn't obviate that responsibility.

Saands

[SL1]

the gun will be locked in a safe of some sort, which should at least help somewhat in mitigating the problem for fire-fighters.

I guess a responsible gun owner could ensure that the bullet would not be so much of a hazard by placing a piece of 1/4" steel in front of the muzzle in the safe, or aiming the muzzle at an inpenetrable wall of some sort.

I understand that, in some situations, racking the slide isn't likely to be an option for self defense.

SL1

[Sport45]

The ones in the safe aren't as much of a concern as the loaded and chambered handguns that might be in a drawer anywhere in the house.

[zxcvbob]

If you're really concerned about a loaded and chambered handgun cooking off in a fire, store it with a 5/16 or larger hex bolt (probably brass to avoid scratches) dropped down the muzzle. In a fire, the barrel will be obstructed and the gun will blow up -- but their fireman suits will protect from the shrapnel if they are unlucky enough to get hit.

I just thought of this; good idea, or stupidest thing you've ever read?

[Sport45]

Might be good for the fireman but bad for you if you grab the thing to use it and the bolt doesn't fall out. No guarantee the bolt will stop the bullet either.

[rgiles]

Look up nfpa 704. it's a diamond that you see on commercial structures everywhere, the one that is red, blue, yellow, and white. Red is for flammable, they're numbered from 1-4, 4 being a higher level of danger. You want one that has a 4 in the red area, and 1's in the blue and yellow (blue is for health danger and yellow is for radioactivity, the white is reserved for unusual hazards). It's not really meant for residential occupancies, but will definitely get the point across. Also, just call and tell them! They would appreciate it. i know i would!

[zxcvbob]

I think you'd want a "3" in the red diamond, not a "4".

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by rgiles

Look up nfpa 704. it's a diamond that you see on commercial structures everywhere, the one that is red, blue, yellow, and white. Red is for flammable, they're numbered from 1-4, 4 being a higher level of danger. You want one that has a 4 in the red area, and 1's in the blue and yellow (blue is for health danger and yellow is for radioactivity, the white is reserved for unusual hazards). It's not really meant for residential occupancies, but will definitely get the point across. Also, just call and tell them! They would appreciate it. i know i would!

You'd almost certainly want a 3 in the red, not a 4:

4)Materials which will rapidly or completely vaporize at atmospheric pressure and normal ambient temperature or which are readily dispersed in air, and which will burn readily. This degree should include:
Gases;
Cryogenic materials;
Any liquid or gaseous material which is a liquid while under pressure and have a flash point below 73°F (22.8°C) and having a boiling point below 100°F(37.8°C). (Class IA flammable liquids.)
Materials which on account of their physical form or environmental conditions can form explosive mixtures with air and which are readily dispersed in air, such as dusts of combustible solids and mists of flammable or combustible liquid droplets.

3)Liquids and solids that can be ignited under almost all ambient temperature conditions. Materials in this degree produce hazardous atmospheres with air under almost all ambient temperatures or, though unaffected by ambient temperatures, are readily ignited under almost all conditions. This degree should include:
Liquids having a flash point below 73°F (22.8°C) and having a boiling point at or above 100°F (37.8°C) and those liquids having a flash point at or above 73°F (22.8°C) and below 100°F (37.8°C). (Class IB and Class IC flammable liquids);
Solid materials in the form of coarse dusts which may burn rapidly but which are generally do not form explosive atmospheres with air;
Solid materials in a fibrous or shredded form which may burn rapidly and create flash fire hazards, such as cotton, sisal and hemp;
Materials which burn with extreme rapidity, usually by reason of self-contained oxygen (e.g., dry nitrocellulose and many organic peroxides);
Materials which ignite spontaneously when exposed to air.

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Now, where you MIGHT have a 4 is reactivity. Especially with primers, which are obviously "sensitive to mechanical shock at normal temperatures and pressures":


4 Materials which in themselves are readily capable of detonation or of explosive decomposition or explosive reaction at normal temperatures and pressures. This degree should include materials which are sensitive to mechanical or localized thermal shock at normal temperatures and pressures.
3 Materials which in themselves are capable of detonation or of explosive reaction but which require a strong initiating source or which must be heated under confinement before initiation. This degree should include materials which are sensitive to thermal or mechanical shock at elevated temperatures and pressures or which react explosively with water without requiring heat or confinement.

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Technically (bureaucratically), the blue triangle would probably be a 2, though I say 1 in the real world.

My guess is it should look like this:

[Civil War Life]

Seems to me the best thing you can do is to make sure you don't have a fire. Have your furnace and other heating equipment like the stove and water heater checked regularly. Make sure the chimney is safe. Have your wiring and electrical equipment checked. Don't do anything stupid like overloading circuits etc. Most fires are the result of equipment or wiring in the house that was not properly used or maintained. Like Smoky says "Only You Can Prevent Forest Fires". Only in this case it is house fires. Of course if you live in an apartment you can't control what your neighbors do. As one member said, make sure you don't have any weapons with rounds in the chamber. Just my 2 cts.

[Civil War Life]

the gun will be locked in a safe of some sort, which should at least help somewhat in mitigating the problem for fire-fighters.

If a gun is in a safe, why would it be loaded with a round in the chamber. Some thug breaks your door down, you going to ask him to wait while you get your loaded and chambered gun out of the safe?

[SL1]

are designed for rapid access to the firearm. Still, getting into them is slower than grabbing a gun from a sock drawer. So, keeping one in the chamber in a safe allows for more speed and one-handed use in the event of an emergency. And, it is safer to keep a loaded gun in a safe with one in the chamber than it is to keep a gun with "just" a loaded magazine in the sock drawer.

SL1

[Flapjack23]

Firefighters encounter a ton of dangerous things in a fire. Aerosol cans exploding (cleaners, lube, hairspray), propane, oxygen tanks, ect. If you are there, tell them where the powder is at, if not, not much you can do. If the fire big, nobody will go in, if its small they may. Gunpowder is just 1 hazard faced.

[wncchester]

Unless a loader has more powder and primers than most of us have the firemen are at greater risk from exploding cans of hair spray or spray paint of exploding bottles of cooking oil, etc.

[SHR970]

Have any of you actually read the MSDS's for smokeless powder?????
There is no NFPA 704 established for smokeless powder but there is an HMIS which reads Health 1, Flammability 2, Reactivity 4. HMIS does not directly translate to the NFPA 704.

DOT regulations for shipping has it as Explosives 1.3 and the material is also classified as a Flammable Solid. The material also has a UN listing of 3178. The UN number tell emergency responders what to look up in the North American Emergency Response Guide and gives them a clue what they are dealing with (although not the actual material).

Storage is covered in NFPA 485, SAAMI reposts that information with permission. NFPA is the MINIMUM standard and local regulations may be more stringent.

The Fire Chief is not necessarily the best person to talk to rather the head Fire Inspector and or the HazMat coordinator for your local. The HazMat coordinator is often also an Inspector. Inspectors are used to reading through and interpreting the Codes; Chiefs have varying levels of experience in this arena.

If I were to post anything I would use UN 3178 as it doesn't tell the whole world what you hobby is but an Emergency Responder should know how to look it up.

Amongst my credentials, I am a Certified HazMAt Emergency Responder in Ca. and am a trained Level II Fire Inspector with several years of field experience.

[SHR970]

Unless a loader has more powder and primers than most of us have the firemen are at greater risk from exploding cans of hair spray or spray paint of exploding bottles of cooking oil, etc.

So very true.