Corporate Purchase of a NFA weapon...

Eric Blair · March 8, 2000, 10:28 PM

Can anyone point me in the right direction or to the right people.

Here is my situation.
I recently picked up my first Title II firearm. A M11/9mm. Its fun, so now I want to buy more. What I'm looking at is another MG and an AOW. (ares .410 flashlight)
I want to be able to let me significant other use the weapon also. Since a form 4 can only be to an individual, or a corporation, I'm thinking corporation.

Here's my thought. Form a corporation (non-profit) to "educate" others on firearms. Purchase whatever toys I want, and have them form 4'ed to the corp. Then allow "stockholders". (My SO, Brother,Sister, etc) have access to the NFA weapon.

I have, in the past incorporated. A true PIA. Not the doing, but the keeping. Quaterly forms to every govt. agency, and their brothers. I eventually let the corp disolve for exactly this reason. (Paperwork) A friends family formed a "trust" some time ago to avoid estate taxes/probate. The trust is a type of corp., and as an seperate being could hold land/cars/etc and allow the trustee's to have use/access to the assets. The big advantage was that there were no quaterly paperwork, as the trust was not a business, but a holding corp.
Could I form the "Corp" as a trust to avoid quaterly (monthly) paperwork?
Next question...
What determines residency for a corp? State of incorporation? Where an office exists? Say ABCD is incorporated in Del. as many companies are, can they only by weapons in Del.? What if there HQ is out of NH? Can they by title 1 or title 2 firearms???

Any help would be appreciated. (including just a name of a decent lawyer. ((corp or firearm)))
The Corp./Trust would be, most likely, based out of NH or AZ. (If that helps....)

Thanks,

Eric

James K · March 10, 2000, 01:57 AM

Hey, guy, you need a lawyer. Even if I or the other TFLers could answer all those questions, you would not be well advised to take our advice. I know a little about gun laws and have some general knowledge of criminal law, but you are asking questions that only an attorney specializing in corporate and trust law can answer.

Bite the bullet, pay the bucks, and go see a lawyer.

Jim

fal308 · March 10, 2000, 09:11 AM

SAR has a lawyer who deals with Title II issues. He writes a column in SAR. Go to www.smallarmsreview.com and see if there is a link for James Bardwell. If not , try e-mailing SAR and asking for a lawyer cognizant of Title II laws in your region.

Eric Blair · March 10, 2000, 01:06 PM

I finish with;
Any help would be appreciated. (including just a name of a decent lawyer. ((corp or firearm)))
The Corp./Trust would be, most likely, based out of NH or AZ. (If that helps....)
Thanks,

Jim Keenan Says:
Bite the bullet, pay the bucks, and go see a lawyer.

I reply:
Yes, I want to "Bite the bullet" and pay a lawyer. I don't want to pay $250/hr to talk to some anti-gun dork I pulled out of the phone book. I'm still not sure if I need a "Corporate Lawyer" or a "Gun Lawyer" (No doubt I end up paying for both) All I was wondering was, Has Anyone done anything like this?
Do you know of a either a Pro-Gun Corp Lawyer in NH or AZ, or a Gun Lawyer who would know about corps?

FAL308:
I was trying to avoid talking to Mr. Bardwell. (Heck of a guy, but I just didn't want to annoy him if I didn't have to.) Calling SAR is a great idea, thanks!

Eric
btw: Jim, no hard feelings... I just have a hard time getting to the meat of the question I want to ask. The rest of the post was background info.

James K · March 10, 2000, 04:57 PM

There is one point you may find of interest. Per BATF, the Form 4 does not need a CLEO signature if the transferee is a corporation.

Eric, I am not angry and if I sounded that way, I am sorry. But folks come on boards like this and want legal advice. I can't give legal advice, and I think anyone would be a fool to accept what I or any one here would tell them. No lawyer would respond and give advice based on a short posting (or for free).

You are talking about how to set up a corporation or a trust, the requirements, the state of incorporation vs. local offices, etc. Those are complex questions with complex answers, which is why lawyers get big bucks for answering them and keeping their clients out of trouble.

As to anti-gun lawyers, of course you want to avoid them. Ask around at gun shops and clubs. Ask friends you shoot with. Some may even be attorneys who can either help or refer you to a specialist. One lawyer I know is a pistol shooter, another collects and shoots machine guns. Like any other group, lawyers are a clique. Being able to say "Lawyer Joe sent me" can open a lot of doors and gain instant acceptability.

As a worst case example, one naive fellow wanted to know how he could go about smuggling his gun into another country. Someone told him his CCW was legal anywhere. Others advised on secret holsters and hollowed out books. I only hope he didn't have to try telling a firing squad that some guy on TFL told him it was OK to smuggle illegal arms into the People's Republic of Zilchistan.

Jim

Riss · March 24, 2000, 10:46 AM

Don't forget that if titled to a corp, eventually if and when the Corp dissolves the NFA weapons must then be surrendered (given to ATF) or transferred to an individual.

------------------
An X is still an X with a Quarter Inch group at 100 yards
With a Quarter Inch Group on the keyboard an X could be - Z,S,D, or C.
I am a quarter inch typist - Please excuse the errors!

John Boy · April 7, 2000, 04:16 PM

I don't understand why a Corporation is Royal PIA. $50 to secy of state. Anyone with word processor can run sharholder meeting minutes in seconds. I have a corp and estimate that less than 5 hours per year is required.

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March 8, 2000, 10:28 PM	#1
Eric Blair Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 1999 Posts: 101	Can anyone point me in the right direction or to the right people. Here is my situation. I recently picked up my first Title II firearm. A M11/9mm. Its fun, so now I want to buy more. What I'm looking at is another MG and an AOW. (ares .410 flashlight) I want to be able to let me significant other use the weapon also. Since a form 4 can only be to an individual, or a corporation, I'm thinking corporation. Here's my thought. Form a corporation (non-profit) to "educate" others on firearms. Purchase whatever toys I want, and have them form 4'ed to the corp. Then allow "stockholders". (My SO, Brother,Sister, etc) have access to the NFA weapon. I have, in the past incorporated. A true PIA. Not the doing, but the keeping. Quaterly forms to every govt. agency, and their brothers. I eventually let the corp disolve for exactly this reason. (Paperwork) A friends family formed a "trust" some time ago to avoid estate taxes/probate. The trust is a type of corp., and as an seperate being could hold land/cars/etc and allow the trustee's to have use/access to the assets. The big advantage was that there were no quaterly paperwork, as the trust was not a business, but a holding corp. Could I form the "Corp" as a trust to avoid quaterly (monthly) paperwork? Next question... What determines residency for a corp? State of incorporation? Where an office exists? Say ABCD is incorporated in Del. as many companies are, can they only by weapons in Del.? What if there HQ is out of NH? Can they by title 1 or title 2 firearms??? Any help would be appreciated. (including just a name of a decent lawyer. ((corp or firearm))) The Corp./Trust would be, most likely, based out of NH or AZ. (If that helps....) Thanks, Eric

March 10, 2000, 01:57 AM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hey, guy, you need a lawyer. Even if I or the other TFLers could answer all those questions, you would not be well advised to take our advice. I know a little about gun laws and have some general knowledge of criminal law, but you are asking questions that only an attorney specializing in corporate and trust law can answer. Bite the bullet, pay the bucks, and go see a lawyer. Jim

March 10, 2000, 09:11 AM	#3
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	SAR has a lawyer who deals with Title II issues. He writes a column in SAR. Go to www.smallarmsreview.com and see if there is a link for James Bardwell. If not , try e-mailing SAR and asking for a lawyer cognizant of Title II laws in your region.

March 10, 2000, 01:06 PM	#4
Eric Blair Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 1999 Posts: 101	I finish with; Any help would be appreciated. (including just a name of a decent lawyer. ((corp or firearm))) The Corp./Trust would be, most likely, based out of NH or AZ. (If that helps....) Thanks, Jim Keenan Says: Bite the bullet, pay the bucks, and go see a lawyer. I reply: Yes, I want to "Bite the bullet" and pay a lawyer. I don't want to pay $250/hr to talk to some anti-gun dork I pulled out of the phone book. I'm still not sure if I need a "Corporate Lawyer" or a "Gun Lawyer" (No doubt I end up paying for both) All I was wondering was, Has Anyone done anything like this? Do you know of a either a Pro-Gun Corp Lawyer in NH or AZ, or a Gun Lawyer who would know about corps? FAL308: I was trying to avoid talking to Mr. Bardwell. (Heck of a guy, but I just didn't want to annoy him if I didn't have to.) Calling SAR is a great idea, thanks! Eric btw: Jim, no hard feelings... I just have a hard time getting to the meat of the question I want to ask. The rest of the post was background info.

March 10, 2000, 04:57 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	There is one point you may find of interest. Per BATF, the Form 4 does not need a CLEO signature if the transferee is a corporation. Eric, I am not angry and if I sounded that way, I am sorry. But folks come on boards like this and want legal advice. I can't give legal advice, and I think anyone would be a fool to accept what I or any one here would tell them. No lawyer would respond and give advice based on a short posting (or for free). You are talking about how to set up a corporation or a trust, the requirements, the state of incorporation vs. local offices, etc. Those are complex questions with complex answers, which is why lawyers get big bucks for answering them and keeping their clients out of trouble. As to anti-gun lawyers, of course you want to avoid them. Ask around at gun shops and clubs. Ask friends you shoot with. Some may even be attorneys who can either help or refer you to a specialist. One lawyer I know is a pistol shooter, another collects and shoots machine guns. Like any other group, lawyers are a clique. Being able to say "Lawyer Joe sent me" can open a lot of doors and gain instant acceptability. As a worst case example, one naive fellow wanted to know how he could go about smuggling his gun into another country. Someone told him his CCW was legal anywhere. Others advised on secret holsters and hollowed out books. I only hope he didn't have to try telling a firing squad that some guy on TFL told him it was OK to smuggle illegal arms into the People's Republic of Zilchistan. Jim

March 24, 2000, 10:46 AM	#6
Riss Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Eastern, PA, USA Posts: 147	Don't forget that if titled to a corp, eventually if and when the Corp dissolves the NFA weapons must then be surrendered (given to ATF) or transferred to an individual. ------------------ An X is still an X with a Quarter Inch group at 100 yards With a Quarter Inch Group on the keyboard an X could be - Z,S,D, or C. I am a quarter inch typist - Please excuse the errors!

April 7, 2000, 04:16 PM	#7
John Boy Member Join Date: December 29, 1999 Location: IL - ORD area Posts: 22	I don't understand why a Corporation is Royal PIA. $50 to secy of state. Anyone with word processor can run sharholder meeting minutes in seconds. I have a corp and estimate that less than 5 hours per year is required.