Purchasing a gun from my father

Shootin Chef · February 4, 2011, 04:03 AM

Ok, so in my other thread I spoke on how a local store sells Glock handguns for cheaper than anything I have found because they are under contract to only sell to LEOs. My father is retired sheriffs dept, and a state constable so he can purchase as a LEO. I talked to him about buying a Glock from said store and then me purchasing it off him but he said he would have to hold on to it for around a year before I could do that. Something to do with law enforcement purchases.

I can't find any information on this for South Carolina, is there anyone out there that can shed light on this or point me to a place where I can read about it because it doesn't sound correct to me. You buy it with your own money, it's yours, isn't it?
Does this count as a strawman sale, since he's using his own money to buy it?

Chef

MLeake · February 4, 2011, 05:04 AM

Seems like a lot of possible legal exposure for a savings of what? $100-150?

Not sure if it would be legal, or ethical, and I personally wouldn't attempt it.

1911rocks · February 4, 2011, 07:29 AM

Shootin' Chef: I'm assuming you are over the legal age and not otherwise prohibited from owning a Firearm, if not the ATF would view that as a Strawman Purchase. As to the BATFE a Strawman purchase takes place when someone, who, for some reason is disqualified from buying/possessing uses someone who is not prohibited from purchasing/possessing for the purpose of circumventing the law. Again, are you circumventing a law or just taking advantage of a preferential business practice? There may be other considerations pertaining to SC laws. I know they are more restrictive than IN laws. Is it unethical? That's another discussion.

LordTio3 · February 4, 2011, 08:01 AM

Ethics aside; and considering I don't know about the firearm laws where you live...

Why don't you give your father the money, have him buy it and "loan" it to you for the first year; after which you tell him how much you love it and considering your admiration for it, he "gifts" it to you (transfer of ownership included).

-OR-

Apply to the police academy. Cut out the middle man.

~LT

Kreyzhorse · February 4, 2011, 08:17 AM

As read, I'd agree it's a straw purchase. He could "gift" it to you but that might not work with his retired LEO status.

From an ethical stand point, I don't think you have any option for your father to buy the gun for you.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 4, 2011, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordTio3

Why don't you give your father the money, have him buy it and "loan" it to you for the first year; ...

Illegal

LordTio3 · February 4, 2011, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Illegal...

Clarified...

Quote:

Ethics aside; and considering I don't know about the firearm laws where you live...

I've actually borrowed weapons from friends for significant periods of time to see how they carried and handled with no intention of buying; only reference. On one occasion, I offered to buy the weapon from the guy after a little bit. He laughed and said, "No way, get your own." So I did. But I would have bought it off of him if he'd agreed to it. Then again, I live in Indiana.

~LT

Shootin Chef · February 4, 2011, 10:44 AM

I'm not really sure it's anymore unethical that using your friend/family member's employee discount at their place of business for your purchase. That's the way I look at it. To save $200+ in this economy, my conscience will deal with it nicely.

I am of legal age, I am able to own a firearm, my question had more to do with why my father would think he would have to hold onto it for a year due to it being a law enforcement purchase. I could understand if he was purchasing it through a department, or with department letterhead, etc. but he's not.

1911, I don't think that's accurate, as it's made pretty clear here:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=387106
that they are two separate issues.

vranasaurus · February 4, 2011, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1911rocks

Shootin' Chef: I'm assuming you are over the legal age and not otherwise prohibited from owning a Firearm, if not the ATF would view that as a Strawman Purchase. As to the BATFE a Strawman purchase takes place when someone, who, for some reason is disqualified from buying/possessing uses someone who is not prohibited from purchasing/possessing for the purpose of circumventing the law. Again, are you circumventing a law or just taking advantage of a preferential business practice? There may be other considerations pertaining to SC laws. I know they are more restrictive than IN laws. Is it unethical? That's another discussion.

Actualy whether he is above the legal age and not otherwise prohibited has no bearing on whether it is a straw purchase.

The crime is lying on question 1 of the 4473.

If you fill out the form and go through the background check to purchase a firearm for someone else you are committing a crime even if the person you are purchasing for could do so themselves.

LordTio3 · February 4, 2011, 10:57 AM

Wow. It's almost like no one has every bought someone a gun as a gift before.

There's a big difference between buying a gun for (as a "mule") sombody and buying a gun FOR (in order to give to) somebody

~LT

vranasaurus · February 4, 2011, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordTio3

Wow. It's almost like no one has every bought someone a gun as a gift before.

There's a big difference between buying a gun for (as a "mule") sombody and buying a gun FOR (in order to give to) somebody

If you read the instructions on the 4473 it specifically says that if you are buying the gun as a gift then you may answer yes to question 1.

It really comes down to who's money is being used to purchase the firearm.

If person A uses person B's money to buy a gun for person B then that is a violation of the law.

If person A uses their own money to buy a gun as a gift for person B then that is OK.

Fusion · February 4, 2011, 12:01 PM

Just pay the $35 for a year to join GSSF, then you can get a Glock at law enforcement pricing yourself.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 4, 2011, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordTio3

I've actually borrowed weapons from friends for significant periods of time to see how they carried and handled with no intention of buying; only reference.

Then you broke the law. Your "loan" was, in fact, a transfer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BATFE FAQ

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. [color=blue]A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes,[/clor] if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

(Emphasis in body of text added)

The BATFE uses a very strict definition of "sporting purposes." Unless you used the borrowed firearm for those purposes, and those purposes only, you were in violation of the law and your borrowing of the firearm was, in fact, a transfer.

Dr. Strangelove · February 4, 2011, 01:30 PM

So your dad bought a pistol with his discount at the LGS, showed it to you, you liked said gun, and purchased it from him.

Now, the only question is why he says he has to hold onto it for a year before he can sell it to you. Does he know of a state law that you don't? Is he just being super cautious (look at some of the posts in this thread), or does he maybe just not want to get involved?

boredom · February 4, 2011, 01:34 PM

why not just spend the extra ~$100 and buy one from another store and build a relationship with them?

Shootin Chef · February 4, 2011, 02:01 PM

I would love a relationship with a Ferrari dealer, but I can't afford it so I stick with Dodge.
I could ask you the same thing, probably, about your vehicle, tv, cell phone, etc. Are you going to honestly sit there and tell me you buy everything at the highest price you can find it?

I'm not made of money, I do ok but I'm far from being able to afford everything I want. Saving not $100 but $200+ is a big deal for me, perhaps not you, but I'm not spending your money sir.

That's why I don't want to spend ($200) and build a relationship with them.

Besides, they would probably like me better if I got the $400 Glock from them, and $200 in ammunition.

Shootin Chef · February 4, 2011, 02:04 PM

Dr Strangelove, that was my question, cause I just don't know and I can't find any documentation saying a LEO purchasing a weapon on a (lets call it) law enforcement discount has to hold on to it for any period of time.

Next time I talk to him I will ask him his reasoning behind this.

LordTio3 · February 4, 2011, 03:10 PM

Aguila Blanca:

Why don't you read that law you referenced a little more carefully before you start accusing me of breaking the law.

If you consider my "Loan" a "Transfer"...

Emphasis added by me for apparent Re-Reclarification.

Quote:

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. [color=blue]A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes,[/clor] if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

We all live in the same state. And we are all licensed to carry. So please try not to be so brash with the accusations.

Personally, it wouldn't upset me to know that this father-son transfer took place. I don't see it as abuse any more than a restaurant manage bringing in their family to eat dinner at their place of business and buying them all dinner on his employee discount. "Wait Dad. Let me get this. You paid for breakfast."

How is this different?

~LT

MLeake · February 4, 2011, 04:03 PM

... the difference is that the OP has stated his intention to reimburse his father for the gun.

Hence the gun is not a gift.

Hence it would be a straw-man purchase. Illegal.

As far as the ethics of the situation goes, with comparison to employee discounts: If the employee doesn't have limits set by the company, there isn't a comparison.

This would be more akin to an employee using a benefit that's supposed to be limited to employee's use only, to benefit somebody who is specifically not entitled to it.

Lots of businesses allow employees to make gift purchases for friends and family.

If this Glock deal falls into this category, then if the OP's dad is willing to buy the gun as a gift, no problem.

Doesn't sound like that's the case, or the plan, though. So, the OP is proposing something that is both illegal and unethical.

Dr. Strangelove · February 4, 2011, 04:56 PM

Look, we're not talking about two Mexican drug lords here, just a guy who wants to take advantage of a discount that his father gets on a gun.

The way the situation is worded does seem to technically make it a straw purchase. Worded a little more carefully, there's no problem.

I'm not suggesting anyone break any laws.

Do they need mind their P's and Q's and cross their T's and dot their I's? Sure.

Is the BATF gonna swoop down in black helicopters, machine gun the family pets, and haul everyone off to Federal prison? Not likely.

This is clearly not a transaction that the straw purchase law was meant to prevent. Transfer the gun properly, and it's nothing to worry about or for anyone to get worked up over.

markj · February 4, 2011, 05:11 PM

Man they is coming for me now I read up on this here on the internets...

Was at a pawn shop with my brother, he saw a 12 ga he really liked but had no cash at the time. I snuck back later that day and bought it. I gave it to him for his birfday

we is 50 weeks apart and I have gifted him 2 shotguns, a rifle and a handgun.

Gave me nephew a 1911 when he gradiated boot camp a full fledged Marine, soon his tour of duty will be over and he can go to college and achieve his goals.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 4, 2011, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

Look, we're not talking about two Mexican drug lords here, just a guy who wants to take advantage of a discount that his father gets on a gun.

Yeah.

And whose father does not wish to participate, because he says he can't do so unless he retains the gun for at least a year after purchase.

MLeake · February 4, 2011, 06:20 PM

... I am not sure if you are deliberately missing the point, but I'll assume you are answering in good faith.

So..

markj, you gave the shotgun to your brother, and the 1911 to your nephew. Those were gifts. That is perfectly legal and legit. This is NOT what the OP is proposing.

Dr. Strangelove, no the BATF probably won't swoop down on this. But they could, if they so chose. The OP did not say he would save the price of a Glock, because his father would give it to him. He said he'd save "over $200" because he'd only have to repay his father the LE cost of the Glock. That is very much a Straw Purchase scenario, no matter how carefully he words it.

All, we are not supposed to suggest ways to pull end-runs on the law on TFL. I don't suspect the mods would be overly pleased by some of the answers on this thread.

Glenn E. Meyer · February 4, 2011, 06:31 PM

Consult the appropriate authorities to determine if this is legal.

Closed.

February 4, 2011, 04:03 AM	#1
Shootin Chef Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2011 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 121	Purchasing a gun from my father Ok, so in my other thread I spoke on how a local store sells Glock handguns for cheaper than anything I have found because they are under contract to only sell to LEOs. My father is retired sheriffs dept, and a state constable so he can purchase as a LEO. I talked to him about buying a Glock from said store and then me purchasing it off him but he said he would have to hold on to it for around a year before I could do that. Something to do with law enforcement purchases. I can't find any information on this for South Carolina, is there anyone out there that can shed light on this or point me to a place where I can read about it because it doesn't sound correct to me. You buy it with your own money, it's yours, isn't it? Does this count as a strawman sale, since he's using his own money to buy it? Chef

February 4, 2011, 07:29 AM	#3
1911rocks Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2006 Posts: 424	Assumptions Shootin' Chef: I'm assuming you are over the legal age and not otherwise prohibited from owning a Firearm, if not the ATF would view that as a Strawman Purchase. As to the BATFE a Strawman purchase takes place when someone, who, for some reason is disqualified from buying/possessing uses someone who is not prohibited from purchasing/possessing for the purpose of circumventing the law. Again, are you circumventing a law or just taking advantage of a preferential business practice? There may be other considerations pertaining to SC laws. I know they are more restrictive than IN laws. Is it unethical? That's another discussion.

February 4, 2011, 08:01 AM	#4
LordTio3 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2010 Location: Bloomington, Indiana Posts: 850	Ethics aside; and considering I don't know about the firearm laws where you live... Why don't you give your father the money, have him buy it and "loan" it to you for the first year; after which you tell him how much you love it and considering your admiration for it, he "gifts" it to you (transfer of ownership included). -OR- Apply to the police academy. Cut out the middle man. ~LT __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ- Greek:"Come and take them..." Meaning: Here we peaceably stand as armed and free men, willing to defend that peace, and ready to make war upon anyone who threatens that freedom.

February 4, 2011, 08:17 AM	#5
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	As read, I'd agree it's a straw purchase. He could "gift" it to you but that might not work with his retired LEO status. From an ethical stand point, I don't think you have any option for your father to buy the gun for you. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

February 4, 2011, 10:57 AM	#10
LordTio3 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2010 Location: Bloomington, Indiana Posts: 850	Wow. It's almost like no one has every bought someone a gun as a gift before. There's a big difference between buying a gun for (as a "mule") sombody and buying a gun FOR (in order to give to) somebody ~LT __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ- Greek:"Come and take them..." Meaning: Here we peaceably stand as armed and free men, willing to defend that peace, and ready to make war upon anyone who threatens that freedom.

February 4, 2011, 05:04 AM	#2
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Seems like a lot of possible legal exposure for a savings of what? $100-150? Not sure if it would be legal, or ethical, and I personally wouldn't attempt it.

February 4, 2011, 10:44 AM	#8
Shootin Chef Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2011 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 121	I'm not really sure it's anymore unethical that using your friend/family member's employee discount at their place of business for your purchase. That's the way I look at it. To save $200+ in this economy, my conscience will deal with it nicely. I am of legal age, I am able to own a firearm, my question had more to do with why my father would think he would have to hold onto it for a year due to it being a law enforcement purchase. I could understand if he was purchasing it through a department, or with department letterhead, etc. but he's not. 1911, I don't think that's accurate, as it's made pretty clear here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=387106 that they are two separate issues.

February 4, 2011, 12:01 PM	#12
Fusion Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2010 Posts: 429	Just pay the $35 for a year to join GSSF, then you can get a Glock at law enforcement pricing yourself.

February 4, 2011, 01:30 PM	#14
Dr. Strangelove Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2008 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 1,436	So your dad bought a pistol with his discount at the LGS, showed it to you, you liked said gun, and purchased it from him. Now, the only question is why he says he has to hold onto it for a year before he can sell it to you. Does he know of a state law that you don't? Is he just being super cautious (look at some of the posts in this thread), or does he maybe just not want to get involved?

February 4, 2011, 01:34 PM	#15
boredom Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2010 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 135	why not just spend the extra ~$100 and buy one from another store and build a relationship with them?

February 4, 2011, 02:01 PM	#16
Shootin Chef Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2011 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 121	I would love a relationship with a Ferrari dealer, but I can't afford it so I stick with Dodge. I could ask you the same thing, probably, about your vehicle, tv, cell phone, etc. Are you going to honestly sit there and tell me you buy everything at the highest price you can find it? I'm not made of money, I do ok but I'm far from being able to afford everything I want. Saving not $100 but $200+ is a big deal for me, perhaps not you, but I'm not spending your money sir. That's why I don't want to spend ($200) and build a relationship with them. Besides, they would probably like me better if I got the $400 Glock from them, and $200 in ammunition.

February 4, 2011, 02:04 PM	#17
Shootin Chef Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2011 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 121	Dr Strangelove, that was my question, cause I just don't know and I can't find any documentation saying a LEO purchasing a weapon on a (lets call it) law enforcement discount has to hold on to it for any period of time. Next time I talk to him I will ask him his reasoning behind this.

February 4, 2011, 04:03 PM	#19
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	LT3... ... the difference is that the OP has stated his intention to reimburse his father for the gun. Hence the gun is not a gift. Hence it would be a straw-man purchase. Illegal. As far as the ethics of the situation goes, with comparison to employee discounts: If the employee doesn't have limits set by the company, there isn't a comparison. This would be more akin to an employee using a benefit that's supposed to be limited to employee's use only, to benefit somebody who is specifically not entitled to it. Lots of businesses allow employees to make gift purchases for friends and family. If this Glock deal falls into this category, then if the OP's dad is willing to buy the gun as a gift, no problem. Doesn't sound like that's the case, or the plan, though. So, the OP is proposing something that is both illegal and unethical.

February 4, 2011, 04:56 PM	#20
Dr. Strangelove Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2008 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 1,436	Look, we're not talking about two Mexican drug lords here, just a guy who wants to take advantage of a discount that his father gets on a gun. The way the situation is worded does seem to technically make it a straw purchase. Worded a little more carefully, there's no problem. *I'm not suggesting anyone break any laws.* Do they need mind their P's and Q's and cross their T's and dot their I's? Sure. Is the BATF gonna swoop down in black helicopters, machine gun the family pets, and haul everyone off to Federal prison? Not likely. This is clearly not a transaction that the straw purchase law was meant to prevent. Transfer the gun properly, and it's nothing to worry about or for anyone to get worked up over.

February 4, 2011, 05:11 PM	#21
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	Man they is coming for me now I read up on this here on the internets... Was at a pawn shop with my brother, he saw a 12 ga he really liked but had no cash at the time. I snuck back later that day and bought it. I gave it to him for his birfday we is 50 weeks apart and I have gifted him 2 shotguns, a rifle and a handgun. Gave me nephew a 1911 when he gradiated boot camp a full fledged Marine, soon his tour of duty will be over and he can go to college and achieve his goals.

February 4, 2011, 06:20 PM	#23
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	markj and others.... ... I am not sure if you are deliberately missing the point, but I'll assume you are answering in good faith. So.. markj, you gave the shotgun to your brother, and the 1911 to your nephew. Those were gifts. That is perfectly legal and legit. This is NOT what the OP is proposing. Dr. Strangelove, no the BATF probably won't swoop down on this. But they could, if they so chose. The OP did not say he would save the price of a Glock, because his father would give it to him. He said he'd save "over $200" because he'd only have to repay his father the LE cost of the Glock. That is very much a Straw Purchase scenario, no matter how carefully he words it. All, we are not supposed to suggest ways to pull end-runs on the law on TFL. I don't suspect the mods would be overly pleased by some of the answers on this thread.

February 4, 2011, 06:31 PM	#24
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Consult the appropriate authorities to determine if this is legal. Closed. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens