Multiple triggers

TXAZ · March 13, 2011, 01:23 PM

I understand the rules say it's a machine gun if more than 1 projectile comes out of the weapon with a single trigger activation.
So what if you had multiple triggers, one on each finger, where tapping your fingers in a rapid rhythm caused the same number of bullets to fire?

Other than the implementation, what's illegal with this non-machine gun?

**JohnKSa** · March 13, 2011, 04:29 PM

That would be legal, just as a manually operated gatling gun is legal. As long as you have to manually actuate a firing mechanism for each shot that is fired then the gun is not a machine gun.

It would also be legal, as far as I can tell, to create a gun that would fire multiple times with one long trigger squeeze as long as the shots went off one at a time as the trigger squeeze progressed through its movement. In other words, as long as the trigger has to be moved an obviously noticeable distance for every shot.

So squeeze the first 1/8 of an inch and the gun fires, continue to squeeze and after the trigger moves the next 1/8th of an inch the next shot goes off, and so on.

Willie Lowman · March 13, 2011, 09:22 PM

That is an interesting idea, John.

I wonder how the great guys down at the tech branch would see it.

**JohnKSa** · March 13, 2011, 09:48 PM

Of course, if someone were going to try to build something like that, he'd be crazy not to get an opinion in writing up front.

That said, given that manual crank Gatling guns are legal there's no good reason why a long pull trigger like the one I described wouldn't be legal too.

Offhand, it seems to me that implementation would be very complicated and the utility would be minimal

chasep255 · March 13, 2011, 10:45 PM

Quote:

It would also be legal, as far as I can tell, to create a gun that would fire multiple times with one long trigger squeeze as long as the shots went off one at a time as the trigger squeeze progressed through its movement. In other words, as long as the trigger has to be moved an obviously noticeable distance for every shot.

That sort of reminds me of a toy machine gun I had when I was 8. It would you would pull the trigger and it would make like 5 clicks to sort of sound like it was firing. I honestly think this would be a great design for a burst gun. My own idea would be for the bolt to reset the trigger as it closes. This way if you only maintain backwards pressure on the trigger the gun will continue firing and your finger may get sore.

ripnbst · March 13, 2011, 10:57 PM

Pick up any higher end paintball gun and it will probably have a double trigger. What paintballers refer to as the finger roll allows pretty quick rate of fire.

Or you could implement this

Willie Lowman · March 13, 2011, 11:02 PM

How about a pump attached to one of those 10/22 triggers?

something geared so it will turn the crank when the pump is pulled back.

Accurate? No. Fun? Probably.

Skans · March 14, 2011, 07:54 AM

Here's your answer:

If it actually works, and simulates full-auto fire from aimed/shouldered position, it will be declared illegal.

However, if it doesn't work or requires extensive practice to get it to double or tripple, it will be legal.

The bottom line is that BATFE is going to declare it illegal if you make something that anyone can pick up and make go: BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG...., dumping a 30 round magazine in a matter 2-3 seconds. They don't care what the law says.

If you have the money to pay good lawyers to fight BATFE, you might win your case and back them off.....but, don't forget, they've got your unlimited tax dollars to spend fighting you.

chasep255 · March 14, 2011, 03:04 PM

Could the ATF just declare it to be an AOW?

Skans · March 14, 2011, 04:17 PM

I came up with an idea to make a bolt-on geared "pump" that would make a little piston move back and forth. The pump could then be mounted so that the piston pushes the trigger multiple times, simulating full-auto fire as you push and pull the pump. It would really be no different than the GAT trigger, except instead of rotating a crank, you would slide the pump back and forth. It meets the BATFE requirements of one shot per trigger pull. And, I'm fairly certain it would work. The problem is that if it does actually work BATFE will figure out a way to stop it.

Willie Lowman · March 14, 2011, 06:51 PM

Skans, did you ever draw up any blueprints for this idea or is it just floating around between your ears?

MrDontPlay · March 14, 2011, 07:34 PM

There are shotguns with two triggers, I think a rifle would be just as legal

MrDontPlay · March 14, 2011, 07:39 PM

There are shotguns with two triggers, I think a rifle would be just as legal

**44 AMP** · March 14, 2011, 11:24 PM

Quote:

I understand the rules say it's a machine gun if more than 1 projectile comes out of the weapon with a single trigger activation.

The wording in laws is important. Shotguns fire more than 1 projectile with a single trigger activation.

The wording describing a full auto firearm is usually "fires more than once" or "fires more than a single round", "fires multiple rounds" or something like that. The multiple pellets in a shotgun shell are all contained in a single round of ammunition, and are counted as a single shot.

AS far as US law goes (in my opinion) you could build a gun with a 30 rnd magazine and fire it with 30 triggers and it would not legally be a machine gun, so long as each round needed a separate trigger activation (separate triggers or the same trigger) to fire it.

Multiple trigger, or cam devices to pull a single trigger multiple times are legal, so long as a certain degree of movement (separate activation) is needed to operate it. In other words, a crank, moving a certain number of degrees, by hand, for each round fired is legal (Gatling gun), and not a machine gun. The same gatling gun, motorized, so it is fired multiple times by a single push of a button or switch is legally a machine gun.

Skans · March 15, 2011, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Skans, did you ever draw up any blueprints for this idea or is it just floating around between your ears?

I sketched out some of it, but realized that I'm just not well versed enough in mechanical design to do this on my own. For right now, its pretty much just floating around between my ears - don't have the sketches any longer.

BitterTait · March 15, 2011, 10:40 PM

I could probably make a prototype of skan's plan out of Lego gears. Would be an interesting project, and I could take over/under bets on how many rounds it goes through before it falls apart.

I do know that having a trigger that shoots both when you pull it and when you release it is permitted. Not something I'd want; burning through ammo is fun but that's a bit dangerous and stupid even for my taste.

I had two ideas for fast-shooting guns that may or may not be legal. Neither of which I implemented nor will implement without a license or permission from the BATFE.

1. Based off a childhood toy where you pulled a perforated strip of plastic through a fake m-16, this engaged some sort of mechanism that made a rattling sound to simulate gunfire. A chain or strip with perforations engages a cogwheel, as the cogwheel spins, it rotates a cam that actuates the trigger. Alternatively, a string wrapped around a pulley would work, but you'd get a lot less control. May be mushy enough that it counts as a machine gun. If you decided to tape a rock to the end of the strip or string to weigh it down so it pulls it's self using gravity, the rock (or possibly the earth it's self, it's generating the gravidic forces responsible for firing) would legally be a machine gun per the BATFE.

2. Based off the "one trigger press, one shot" idea, with a slight twist. A delayed trigger. A device that screws into the gun that has two separate triggers. Pull the first trigger and it mechanically or electrically actuates the trigger once. Pull the second trigger it does nothing but increment a counter, pull the first trigger again and and it fires twice: once for the first trigger pull, once for the second. Pull the second trigger 5 times and the first trigger once, and it shoots 6 shots total. One trigger pull: one shot. Just so happens the shots are slightly timeshifted. Useful? no. Illegal? Probably. Fun? I'd think so.

I'd bet I could get away with #1, and even odds the BATFE would allow #2 for 3 weeks before reversing their stance and demanding all of the ones produced back. Ether way not something I'll try without express approval, a manufacturing license, and enough money to afford both a good lawyer and a large amount of ammunition.

Skans · March 16, 2011, 08:05 AM

BitterTait, I think I understand how your 1st design works - that would be interesting to see. Not too sure how that 2-trigger system works, though it also sounds interesting. I'd like to see the leggo device! My design was real simple - just a geared wheel inside of geared track - geared wheel is stationary and the pump would slide the track/spine up and down over the wheel turning it. Wheel would have an off-set arm bolted to it which in turn push the piston. The only issue would be how wide the wheel needs to be to get enough back and forth motion on the piston. Sounds simple, but would probably need lots more design and parts to get everything to line up correctly.

The one thing you need to watch out for is that you aren't' winding up some kind of spring activated device that repeatedly presses the trigger - not sure whether this was incorporated into your designs.

Ideal Tool · March 17, 2011, 11:31 PM

Hello, not that long ago...1980's-90's, you used to see alot of these things advertized in the slick gunzines for the Ruger 10/22...plastic crank affair, clamped to trigger guard.

gyvel · March 18, 2011, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Hello, not that long ago...1980's-90's, you used to see alot of these things advertized in the slick gunzines for the Ruger 10/22...plastic crank affair, clamped to trigger guard.

Yes. The BMF Activator. It might have been a decent idea if they had used decent plastic in its construction.

March 13, 2011, 09:22 PM	#3
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	That is an interesting idea, John. I wonder how the great guys down at the tech branch would see it. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

March 13, 2011, 09:48 PM	#4
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,993	Of course, if someone were going to try to build something like that, he'd be crazy not to get an opinion in writing up front. That said, given that manual crank Gatling guns are legal there's no good reason why a long pull trigger like the one I described wouldn't be legal too. Offhand, it seems to me that implementation would be very complicated and the utility would be minimal __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

March 13, 2011, 11:02 PM	#7
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	How about a pump attached to one of those 10/22 triggers? something geared so it will turn the crank when the pump is pulled back. Accurate? No. Fun? Probably. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

March 14, 2011, 06:51 PM	#11
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	Skans, did you ever draw up any blueprints for this idea or is it just floating around between your ears? __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

March 14, 2011, 07:34 PM	#12
MrDontPlay Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2010 Posts: 587	There are shotguns with two triggers, I think a rifle would be just as legal __________________ Someday I'll be good enough to know if a gun is accurate or not.

March 13, 2011, 01:23 PM	#1
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	Multiple triggers I understand the rules say it's a machine gun if more than 1 projectile comes out of the weapon with a single trigger activation. So what if you had multiple triggers, one on each finger, where tapping your fingers in a rapid rhythm caused the same number of bullets to fire? Other than the implementation, what's illegal with this non-machine gun? __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

March 13, 2011, 04:29 PM	#2
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,993	That would be legal, just as a manually operated gatling gun is legal. As long as you have to manually actuate a firing mechanism for each shot that is fired then the gun is not a machine gun. It would also be legal, as far as I can tell, to create a gun that would fire multiple times with one long trigger squeeze as long as the shots went off one at a time as the trigger squeeze progressed through its movement. In other words, as long as the trigger has to be moved an obviously noticeable distance for every shot. So squeeze the first 1/8 of an inch and the gun fires, continue to squeeze and after the trigger moves the next 1/8th of an inch the next shot goes off, and so on. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

March 13, 2011, 10:57 PM	#6
ripnbst Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Spring, TX Posts: 1,552	Pick up any higher end paintball gun and it will probably have a double trigger. What paintballers refer to as the finger roll allows pretty quick rate of fire. Or you could implement this

March 14, 2011, 07:54 AM	#8
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Here's your answer: If it actually works, and simulates full-auto fire from aimed/shouldered position, it will be declared illegal. However, if it doesn't work or requires extensive practice to get it to double or tripple, it will be legal. The bottom line is that BATFE is going to declare it illegal if you make something that anyone can pick up and make go: BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG...., dumping a 30 round magazine in a matter 2-3 seconds. They don't care what the law says. If you have the money to pay good lawyers to fight BATFE, you might win your case and back them off.....but, don't forget, they've got your unlimited tax dollars to spend fighting you.

March 14, 2011, 03:04 PM	#9
chasep255 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 727	Could the ATF just declare it to be an AOW?

March 14, 2011, 04:17 PM	#10
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	I came up with an idea to make a bolt-on geared "pump" that would make a little piston move back and forth. The pump could then be mounted so that the piston pushes the trigger multiple times, simulating full-auto fire as you push and pull the pump. It would really be no different than the GAT trigger, except instead of rotating a crank, you would slide the pump back and forth. It meets the BATFE requirements of one shot per trigger pull. And, I'm fairly certain it would work. The problem is that if it does actually work BATFE will figure out a way to stop it.

March 14, 2011, 07:39 PM	#13
MrDontPlay Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2010 Posts: 587	There are shotguns with two triggers, I think a rifle would be just as legal __________________ Someday I'll be good enough to know if a gun is accurate or not.

March 15, 2011, 10:40 PM	#16
BitterTait Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 144	I could probably make a prototype of skan's plan out of Lego gears. Would be an interesting project, and I could take over/under bets on how many rounds it goes through before it falls apart. I do know that having a trigger that shoots both when you pull it and when you release it is permitted. Not something I'd want; burning through ammo is fun but that's a bit dangerous and stupid even for my taste. I had two ideas for fast-shooting guns that may or may not be legal. Neither of which I implemented nor will implement without a license or permission from the BATFE. 1. Based off a childhood toy where you pulled a perforated strip of plastic through a fake m-16, this engaged some sort of mechanism that made a rattling sound to simulate gunfire. A chain or strip with perforations engages a cogwheel, as the cogwheel spins, it rotates a cam that actuates the trigger. Alternatively, a string wrapped around a pulley would work, but you'd get a lot less control. May be mushy enough that it counts as a machine gun. If you decided to tape a rock to the end of the strip or string to weigh it down so it pulls it's self using gravity, the rock (or possibly the earth it's self, it's generating the gravidic forces responsible for firing) would legally be a machine gun per the BATFE. 2. Based off the "one trigger press, one shot" idea, with a slight twist. A delayed trigger. A device that screws into the gun that has two separate triggers. Pull the first trigger and it mechanically or electrically actuates the trigger once. Pull the second trigger it does nothing but increment a counter, pull the first trigger again and and it fires twice: once for the first trigger pull, once for the second. Pull the second trigger 5 times and the first trigger once, and it shoots 6 shots total. One trigger pull: one shot. Just so happens the shots are slightly timeshifted. Useful? no. Illegal? Probably. Fun? I'd think so. I'd bet I could get away with #1, and even odds the BATFE would allow #2 for 3 weeks before reversing their stance and demanding all of the ones produced back. Ether way not something I'll try without express approval, a manufacturing license, and enough money to afford both a good lawyer and a large amount of ammunition. __________________ Powered by VI!

March 16, 2011, 08:05 AM	#17
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	BitterTait, I think I understand how your 1st design works - that would be interesting to see. Not too sure how that 2-trigger system works, though it also sounds interesting. I'd like to see the leggo device! My design was real simple - just a geared wheel inside of geared track - geared wheel is stationary and the pump would slide the track/spine up and down over the wheel turning it. Wheel would have an off-set arm bolted to it which in turn push the piston. The only issue would be how wide the wheel needs to be to get enough back and forth motion on the piston. Sounds simple, but would probably need lots more design and parts to get everything to line up correctly. The one thing you need to watch out for is that you aren't' winding up some kind of spring activated device that repeatedly presses the trigger - not sure whether this was incorporated into your designs.

March 17, 2011, 11:31 PM	#18
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Hello, not that long ago...1980's-90's, you used to see alot of these things advertized in the slick gunzines for the Ruger 10/22...plastic crank affair, clamped to trigger guard.