would this have been illegal?

Rifleman1776 · January 29, 2011, 09:49 AM

We have a new gunshop in my area. It is heavily inventoried with military style firearms. I asked the owner if he had a Class 3 license. He said no but he could get me anything I want and he would help me fill out the registration. I'm not in the market for any C3 but got to wondering if his offer was legal. Had I innocently said, OK, get me a full-auto would I be in violation of the law by buying it from him?

Webleymkv · January 29, 2011, 10:08 AM

I have a feeling that the dealer probably didn't know exactly what a Class 3 lisence is. Regardless, if he doesn't have a C3, I very much doubt he'd even be able to get any NFA weapons to begin with unless he got them from a private individual.

**Spats McGee** · January 29, 2011, 10:36 AM

I agree with Webleymkv in thinking that perhaps the owner didn't really know what a Class 3 license is. I haven't looked into the statutes, but my gut says, "yes, it would be illegal" for a non C3 to buy and sell a full-auto in the course of his business without it. I would also expect your purchase of same to be illegal.

EOD Guy · January 29, 2011, 11:34 AM

There is no such thing as a Class 3 license. There is a Type 03 FFL for collectors. In order for a dealer to sell NFA firearms, he must have a Type 01 or Type 09 FFL and have paid the SOT, or Special Occupational Tax.

The Class 3 often referred to has to do with the Class 3 tax stamp used as proof of payment of the SOT.

**Spats McGee** · January 29, 2011, 12:29 PM

Hm. For many years, I've heard references to the "Class 3 license." Perhaps I should actually go look that one up.

Edward429451 · January 29, 2011, 02:11 PM

He's just trying to not let a customer get away. Him saying that he can get you whatever you want doesnt mean that it would be illegal, even if he is not licensed or whatever its called now.

I do the same thing in my company. I am a mechanical contractor. One of my good customers needed a french drain installed and asked if I can do that for him. I immediately replied affirmative even though I am not licensed for underground work. Being in the trades I simply contracted a licensed collegue that I know and had him do it, he billed me, I billed my customer. I made it happen for the customer even though I could not pull the permit.

I suspect something similar in your situation. Come time to do the paperwork you may get to meet his friend.

pichon · January 29, 2011, 04:13 PM

Here is a page which explains it all quite well.

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/class3.htm

**44 AMP** · January 29, 2011, 04:55 PM

Probably just as Edward describes. If I'm a dealer, sure I can get you anything you want (as long as its legal). I might have to go through another dealer or two, but I can get anything you want, if you are paying the freight.

Fact is, I can do that without being a dealer, too. We will go through a dealer(s), but if you want to pay me to make the arraingements, I can do that.

brickeyee · January 29, 2011, 05:08 PM

If he has not paid the SOT no one will transfer a Class 3 weapon to him.

He probably has no idea.

a.lol.cat · January 29, 2011, 05:42 PM

I'm gonna go with Edward and 44 AMP. I work for a GC, but he doesn't have an electric or plumbing contractors license, but if wanted electric or plumbing in one of our buildings we'd just sub out the work to a lic contractor for the work that needed to be done. It's a very common practice in the "trade" industry.

mes227 · January 29, 2011, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Hm. For many years, I've heard references to the "Class 3 license." Perhaps I should actually go look that one up.

Type 3 is often incorrectly called Class 3. I'd assume that he thought that's what you meant, but if he has a Type 1 he doesn't also need a Type 3.

Joat · February 1, 2011, 11:02 AM

Quote:

but if he has a Type 1 he doesn't also need a Type 3.

A Type 3 FFL is a Collector of Curios and Relics. Has nothing to do with NFA

He does need to be a SOT 03 if he is going to be dealing in NFA items and expecting to make a profit.

Copied from Quarterbore

What most people mistakenly call Class 3 is properly referred to as NFA or Title 2 firearms.

A Class 3 SOT dealer is a dealer of NFA firearms
A Class 2 SOT manufacturer is a manufacturer of NFA firearms
A Class 1 SOT importer is an importer of NFA firearms

Type 1 FFL is a Title 1 dealer or gunsmith
Type 2 FFL is a Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker
Type 3 FFL is a licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms
Type 6 FFL is a licensed maker of ammunition and reloading components other than Armor Piercing ammunition
Type 7 FFL is a Title 1 manufacturer of firearms, ammunition and ammunition components other than NFA, Destructive Devices and Armor Piercing ammunition
Type 8 FFL is an importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition
Type 9 FFL is a dealer in Title 1 firearms including NFA destructive devices, but no other NFA
Type 10 FFL is a manufacturer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, including NFA Destructive Devices but no other NFA, and not including Armor Piercing ammunition
Type 11 FFL is an importer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and NFA Destructive Devices, but no other NFA

To get a Class 3 SOT status, you need a dealer or manufacturer FFL which includes Type 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 10 or 11 - and pay a yearly $500 tax due every July 1st.

To get a Class 2 SOT status, you need a manufacturer FFL, which includes Type 7, 10 - and pay a yearly $1000 or $500 (reduced rate for small manufacturers) tax due every July 1st.

To get a Class 1 SOT status, you need an importer FFL, which includes Type 8, 11- and pay a yearly $1000 or $500 (reduced rate for small importers) tax due every July 1st.

He could buy nfa items personally and pay the tax, then sell them as an individual (with a second tax paid) but that would add cost to the deal 2 tax paid transfers) and extend the wait for approval from the BATF&E by at least 2X. Approval for 2 separate form 4 transfers (somewhere around 90 to 120 days, each, on average right now) instead of a form 3 transfer (approximately 3 weeks) and a form 4 transfer to the customer.[/LIST]
Joat

Rifleman1776 · February 1, 2011, 12:40 PM

I thank you all for the replies but the discussion has drifted a long way from my original question. I think we can close this now.

johnwilliamson062 · February 1, 2011, 03:36 PM

I believe there are a couple of stores in my area that have deals worked out with NFA dealers so they can ?arrange the sale of items?

January 29, 2011, 09:49 AM	#1
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	would this have been illegal? We have a new gunshop in my area. It is heavily inventoried with military style firearms. I asked the owner if he had a Class 3 license. He said no but he could get me anything I want and he would help me fill out the registration. I'm not in the market for any C3 but got to wondering if his offer was legal. Had I innocently said, OK, get me a full-auto would I be in violation of the law by buying it from him?

January 29, 2011, 04:55 PM	#8
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,807	Probably just as Edward describes. If I'm a dealer, sure I can get you anything you want (as long as its legal). I might have to go through another dealer or two, but I can get anything you want, if you are paying the freight. Fact is, I can do that without being a dealer, too. We will go through a dealer(s), but if you want to pay me to make the arraingements, I can do that. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

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January 29, 2011, 10:08 AM	#2
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	I have a feeling that the dealer probably didn't know exactly what a Class 3 lisence is. Regardless, if he doesn't have a C3, I very much doubt he'd even be able to get any NFA weapons to begin with unless he got them from a private individual.

January 29, 2011, 10:36 AM	#3
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 8,821	I agree with Webleymkv in thinking that perhaps the owner didn't really know what a Class 3 license is. I haven't looked into the statutes, but my gut says, "yes, it would be illegal" for a non C3 to buy and sell a full-auto in the course of his business without it. I would also expect your purchase of same to be illegal.

January 29, 2011, 11:34 AM	#4
EOD Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 1999 Location: Concord, CA, USA Posts: 726	There is no such thing as a Class 3 license. There is a Type 03 FFL for collectors. In order for a dealer to sell NFA firearms, he must have a Type 01 or Type 09 FFL and have paid the SOT, or Special Occupational Tax. The Class 3 often referred to has to do with the Class 3 tax stamp used as proof of payment of the SOT.

January 29, 2011, 12:29 PM	#5
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 8,821	Hm. For many years, I've heard references to the "Class 3 license." Perhaps I should actually go look that one up.

January 29, 2011, 02:11 PM	#6
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	He's just trying to not let a customer get away. Him saying that he can get you whatever you want doesnt mean that it would be illegal, even if he is not licensed or whatever its called now. I do the same thing in my company. I am a mechanical contractor. One of my good customers needed a french drain installed and asked if I can do that for him. I immediately replied affirmative even though I am not licensed for underground work. Being in the trades I simply contracted a licensed collegue that I know and had him do it, he billed me, I billed my customer. I made it happen for the customer even though I could not pull the permit. I suspect something similar in your situation. Come time to do the paperwork you may get to meet his friend.

January 29, 2011, 04:13 PM	#7
pichon Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 439	Here is a page which explains it all quite well. http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/class3.htm

January 29, 2011, 05:08 PM	#9
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	If he has not paid the SOT no one will transfer a Class 3 weapon to him. He probably has no idea.

January 29, 2011, 05:42 PM	#10
a.lol.cat Member Join Date: December 14, 2010 Location: Da Interwebz Posts: 69	I'm gonna go with Edward and 44 AMP. I work for a GC, but he doesn't have an electric or plumbing contractors license, but if wanted electric or plumbing in one of our buildings we'd just sub out the work to a lic contractor for the work that needed to be done. It's a very common practice in the "trade" industry.

February 1, 2011, 12:40 PM	#13
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	I thank you all for the replies but the discussion has drifted a long way from my original question. I think we can close this now.

February 1, 2011, 03:36 PM	#14
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	I believe there are a couple of stores in my area that have deals worked out with NFA dealers so they can ?arrange the sale of items?