Okay, people.

[Goet]

Rowdy1

you need to read through a lot of posts, but there are many here that don't blink an eye at the violence that is going on right here in our own streets (ie. mosques vandalized, people harrassed, etc).

I wonder how long it will be before someone drags an Arab through the streets behind their truck.


And what is a nation besides a group of people. We need to know who and where before we start condemning people to death.

[T-Rex]

The point Gentlemen, is that we are at war. Terrorism has become a weapon of mass destruction, and is accessible to all of the nations that wish us harm. Unless we demonstrate that terrorism against the US costs immesurably more than it gains, we can expect to see this kind of thing again and again.

The gloves need to come all the way off, and we need to make the next potential terrorist aware that no matter how much he hurts us, he will only hurt whatever he cares about tenfold. That probably means the use of weapons of mass destruction.

That's the stick. Now rfor the carrot: We need to make darn sure we're good neighbors to everyone, not just Europe and english speaking countries. Period.

If we do that, we will deter most terrorists. Otherwise, we have only 3 options: We can 1. do whatever they want us to, or 2. increase our internal security in an endless and fruitless attempt to prevent furure acts, or 3. resign ourselves to lots of future attacks. All of these represent essentially the end of America as we know it, and none are acceptable to me. If keeping our way of life intact means exterminating the women and children of our enemies, so be it. Some things are worth fighting and killing for. I won't be happy about it, because war is indeed hell. On the other hand, I think I can live with that.

[Bam Bam]

I am having some trouble reading between the lines at this site. Can someone please click on "The Monumental Struggle Between Good and Evil" at the top and help me out what it means.

Thanks in Advance, Bam Bam.

http://www.azzam.com

[Navy joe]

I just can't stand it anymore. To all that pigeonhole an ethnic group or religion based on the actions of its 5%, maybe you should consider moving to northern Ireland, Rwanda, or someplace else where it is apparently ok to kill someone just because what church or tribe, clan etc. they were raised up in. This is AMERICA where we were all supposed to be taught not to judge a book by its cover, you know regardless of race, creed, or national origin. We hated the Catholics when they first came over, so most of them went to Maryland. We thought the quakers were a little odd so they went to PA. Later we hated the catholics again when they came to New york. Weren't really sure if we could trust 'em enough to elect Kennedy. We hate Mexicans, SE asian boat people etc. Do I even need to mention the American Indians and Blacks? How about all the loyal Japanese citizens we put in CONCENTRATION CAMPS in WWII? It's shameful behavior, completely unAmerican people, Lets see "All men are created equal", "Give me your tired huddled masses", do your blanket condemnations align with what it means to be American?

Islamic peoples in general. I am no expert, but having been to more than a few countries in travel I believe that the commonality of humans will save us. Many around the world have the same basic values, they want clean water, good schools, and a safe home. I never felt unfriendlyness from common people in Islamic countries, It is as someone pointed out the clerics who are to blame, they lead the undereducated masses if they wish. Much the same as our media I might add. The clerics worship power, NOT ISLAM, and they preach obedience and zealous commitment to their word, NOT ISLAM. Want to se success? Look at Turkey. When Kemal Ataturk made the nation a secular one and preached education and engagement with the world he saved his country from the clerics and the people knew it. Hell we would forget George Washington if he wasn't on the quarter, if you want to see a national hero check out Ataturk. Damn I love that country! The clerics know that one can't get stuffed back in the bottle.

Islamic people in particular. I am sure you would like to dismiss all cases as the exception to the rule, but here goes. One of my shipmates came in the Navy right after the Cole was bombed(Don't forget her!). No big deal except for the fact that his ethnicity is 100% Yemeni. How do you think boot camp was for him? Now this. He can't go smoke without four smallminded sailors berating him because he is Muslim and brown. Where was he anyway yesterday? Standing a security watch professionally and with an upbeat attitude. Want more? He maintains his composure even though he was born and raised in NYC! What does he want to do this weekend? Drive up there and help. People that blindly condemn people by group make me sick! If you would like to harrass a Muslim, please stop by my hangar. You try it and I'll personally educate you. Enough said.

So yes we should go to war. Any government that sponsored any of this or harbors fugitives is the enemy. By the laws of war we would protect non-combatants when possible. Many would still die, its a given going in. Still we must act as Americans, to show to the world that we do adhere to our ideals as just warriors and to also show them that principles like national sovreignity and freedom are not open to debate. We cannot blindly lash out and level a city, that's what they tried to do to us.

Further, when at war we cannot cut and run or restrain ourselves for fear of American casualties. It is the people's and medias fault and it is embarrassing. American soldiers used to be known for their tenacity, the willingness to bear any burden or overcome the worst odds. The Fighters still will. The world's thugs know however that the people will clamor for their children back if our nose is bloodied though. That is in part due to the POW/MIA movement who have conditioned America to expect every piece back even if it's 30 years later and we are crashing helicopters with live soldiers in it looking for bone fragments stuck in a hillside. Combined with people seeing war in real time and color and politicians who breathe opinion polls. The end result is a disheartened military, an emboldened enemy and a public that thinks they can be a world superpower with no military losses. In a word, Coddled! Yeah, I am a REMF that fixes airplanes. In my heart I have always felt a coldness that may belong somewhere a lot further toward the tip of the spear. I'm still trying to get my chance. Dismiss my comments if you wish, but if you join the military you should be willing to die. Same if you are really an American. I am.

In closing my rant let me recognize that I express unpopular views, but hell I open my big mouth every day. I guess that makes me rather unpopular except for a select few individuals that share an open mind. Please people lets show some of the tolerance and moral strength this country was founded on.

THE END

[GunFool]

We should make and keep allies where we find them...and commit our own persistant, relentless, demoralizing 'terrorism' against those who would do this to us or our allies. What do you think this multinational terrorism coalition will be anyways? Just that - a central body commanding intelligence and tactical operations against perceived terrorist threats. We are watching the birth of Clancy's 'Rainbow Six'...perhaps less secretive and better funded, but the idea remains the same.

[Goet]

Not unpopular at all, at least in my book.

Posted by NavyJoe:
I just can't stand it anymore. To all that pigeonhole an ethnic group or religion based on the actions of its 5%, maybe you should consider moving to northern Ireland, Rwanda, or someplace else where it is apparently ok to kill someone just because what church or tribe, clan etc. they were raised up in. This is AMERICA where we were all supposed to be taught not to judge a book by its cover, you know regardless of race, creed, or national origin. We hated the Catholics when they first came over, so most of them went to Maryland. We thought the quakers were a little odd so they went to PA. Later we hated the catholics again when they came to New york. Weren't really sure if we could trust 'em enough to elect Kennedy. We hate Mexicans, SE asian boat people etc. Do I even need to mention the American Indians and Blacks? How about all the loyal Japanese citizens we put in CONCENTRATION CAMPS in WWII? It's shameful behavior, completely unAmerican people, Lets see "All men are created equal", "Give me your tired huddled masses", do your blanket condemnations align with what it means to be American?

Islamic peoples in general. I am no expert, but having been to more than a few countries in travel I believe that the commonality of humans will save us. Many around the world have the same basic values, they want clean water, good schools, and a safe home. I never felt unfriendlyness from common people in Islamic countries, It is as someone pointed out the clerics who are to blame, they lead the undereducated masses if they wish. Much the same as our media I might add. The clerics worship power, NOT ISLAM, and they preach obedience and zealous commitment to their word, NOT ISLAM. Want to se success? Look at Turkey. When Kemal Ataturk made the nation a secular one and preached education and engagement with the world he saved his country from the clerics and the people knew it. Hell we would forget George Washington if he wasn't on the quarter, if you want to see a national hero check out Ataturk. Damn I love that country! The clerics know that one can't get stuffed back in the bottle.

Islamic people in particular. I am sure you would like to dismiss all cases as the exception to the rule, but here goes. One of my shipmates came in the Navy right after the Cole was bombed(Don't forget her!). No big deal except for the fact that his ethnicity is 100% Yemeni. How do you think boot camp was for him? Now this. He can't go smoke without four smallminded sailors berating him because he is Muslim and brown. Where was he anyway yesterday? Standing a security watch professionally and with an upbeat attitude. Want more? He maintains his composure even though he was born and raised in NYC! What does he want to do this weekend? Drive up there and help. People that blindly condemn people by group make me sick! If you would like to harrass a Muslim, please stop by my hangar. You try it and I'll personally educate you. Enough said.

So yes we should go to war. Any government that sponsored any of this or harbors fugitives is the enemy. By the laws of war we would protect non-combatants when possible. Many would still die, its a given going in. Still we must act as Americans, to show to the world that we do adhere to our ideals as just warriors and to also show them that principles like national sovreignity and freedom are not open to debate. We cannot blindly lash out and level a city, that's what they tried to do to us.

Further, when at war we cannot cut and run or restrain ourselves for fear of American casualties. It is the people's and medias fault and it is embarrassing. American soldiers used to be known for their tenacity, the willingness to bear any burden or overcome the worst odds. The Fighters still will. The world's thugs know however that the people will clamor for their children back if our nose is bloodied though. That is in part due to the POW/MIA movement who have conditioned America to expect every piece back even if it's 30 years later and we are crashing helicopters with live soldiers in it looking for bone fragments stuck in a hillside. Combined with people seeing war in real time and color and politicians who breathe opinion polls. The end result is a disheartened military, an emboldened enemy and a public that thinks they can be a world superpower with no military losses. In a word, Coddled! Yeah, I am a REMF that fixes airplanes. In my heart I have always felt a coldness that may belong somewhere a lot further toward the tip of the spear. I'm still trying to get my chance. Dismiss my comments if you wish, but if you join the military you should be willing to die. Same if you are really an American. I am.

In closing my rant let me recognize that I express unpopular views, but hell I open my big mouth every day. I guess that makes me rather unpopular except for a select few individuals that share an open mind. Please people lets show some of the tolerance and moral strength this country was founded on.

THE END

[nswgru1]

Well in the danger of being labled a racist (h*** I live in MS that automatically makes me one)

Navy Joe: This post started out with LD calling for people not to take the law into their own hands and do stupid things to people in THIS country that had absolutely nothing to do with what happened. I agree with that and I would THINK, THINK mind you that nobody that has responded to this thread would either, but I can only speak for myself.

This thread at some point turned into a debate about the appropriate action to take once responsibility has been established. Those of us you have been at " the tip of the spear" are repulsed by anything less than full commitment no holds barred retaliation.

In conclusion: I personally think and KNOW to some extent that your 5% estimate is wrong but don't think that is of any importance.

[George Hill]

I have never been disapointed in TFL Members before... After reading some of the posts in this thread - I am DEEPLY ASHAMED.

Bigotry, Hatred... I Didn't think I would see this here to this extent.

My brother's sweetheart is arabic... Would you guys run her out on a rail? Would you run him out too for loving her?

Some of you people are just sick. Sick to the point that you are no better then the Palastinians celebrating the attacks.

Small minded and just plain sad.

[Navy joe]

I kinda think I touched on holding back, I'm against it. Last thing we need, I was aiming at those who decided that all Arabic peoples are automatically guilty. I hope you got something from my post. Taking on countries that harbor terrorists is war and like I said before I am very much for it. Nuking a city just because its Arabic and we can is terrorism and I am against it. Deciding all Muslims are bad and should pay is the first jackbooted step towards genocide. Some people here seem to clamor for it. I won't. No you didn't make any racist statement.

[Don Gwinn]

Like Dennis, I am not an expert on religion. And I admit, I haven't really followed this thread. I just sat here and read the whole thing at one sitting, and it's a shock. Some points as they occur to me:

1. I believe Lawdog was referring to those who have been arguing that Islam is rooted in violence and all Muslims are killers at heart, egged on by their religion, when he made his "dancing in the streets" comment.

2. Since I'm not an expert, let's say I go ahead and stipulate that Muslims who advocate peace and love are atypical. Fine. That means it's OK to kill them?

3. Roving gangs of young toughs driving around giving out beatings and stonings may give Islam as their excuse, but if you buy that, I've got a bridge for you. In this country, lethal riots start over a lot less than religion. Remember when there was a huge race riot in New York with blacks going after jews because a Hasidic chauffeur hit a young black girl with a car completely by accident? Young punks with frustrations will seize just about any excuse.

4. If civilian casualties are absolutely necessary in order to root out terrorists (including defeating terrorist states) I will accept that with a heavy heart. But to howl for the blood of all members of a religion, based on your perception that THEY are bloodthirsty by nature, is not right. I can't join it.

5. No matter how much people may try to backpedal tonight, some among us have cried out for the blood of all Arabs and the blood of all Muslim. This is not a proud thing for us.

[clem]

I want the blood of the attackers and their supporters to flow in the streets of their arm pit of a city. I want their cattle dead. I want their sheep dead. I want everything they own destroyed or dead. I want the people of the world to fear the unknown , the unknown being of the rage of the United States.
I want revenge!
I want payback!

They will never stop. We must stop them NOW for America's future.

Sorry if I've upset you, (not really), but I promise to be nice the next time (another lie).

Clem

[lonegunman]

I aint apologizing for nothing.

Give them what they have given us, times 1000!

[4V50 Gary]

Go Navy Joe! I agree completely. Lest we forget, not all Americans are from European descent. Lest we forget, not all who died in NYC were even Americans and a lot of foreign nationals died too.

I have a coworker whose wife is a Lebanese Arab. Guess what? she's a Christian and there are Christian Arabs in the Middle East too. We can't stereotype a race and presume that they're all of one religion.

Like LawDog & Spectre, I will stand in front of a Arab grocer or cabbie to protect him from an angry mob. I cannot stand idle and permit an Islamic mosque or Christian church be vandalised. There isn't a distinction under American law. BTW, one of the hardest things I ever did as a deputy was to stand between a (Marietta) Cubano who had just attacked a black American. The black inmates were screaming for his blood for attacking the guy while he was asleep. I wanted him myself or slip and fall so the inmates could have him. Yet I did my duty and protected that POS and removed him to safety. In the case of an innocent Arab grocer or cabbie, the duty is even stronger since (S)he perpetrated no wrong.

Have we forgotten about how the bodies of our fallen were dragged through the streets by the Moghadishu mobs? We felt they were shamefully barbaric, didn't we? Are we now any better than them? If we attack American Arabs, burn out their businesses or Mosques, we're no better than the Nazis. Yes retribution will be made, but not against the innocent.

[ninenot]

RWK...

Sorry to say it, but the rules of war are quite specific: you just don't kill civilian non-combatants. That's not to say that some won't get killed--accidents do happen--wrong place, wrong time. But to deliberately kill civilian non-combatants is murder. Check with anyone from West Point or the USNA. Citing previous actions doesn't make them right--or Clinton's biography would be a license for a whole LOTTA bad guys.

GWB is mad as hell, and we'll get the BG's. But the USA cannot act like its cowardly !@#$%^& enemies, or what have we to show the world about "life, liberty, and the pursuit?"

Lawdog has it right.

[lonegunman]

ninenot:

if "to deliberately kill innocent civilian non-combatants is murder", then could you explain

Hiroshima and Nagasaki???

I did not realize we evacuated the civilians before we nuked those cities.

[Art Eatman]

rowdy, rowdy, rowdy. You ain't been payin' attention, son! What it is, is, we have some absolute idjits going around here in the U.S. offering violence of one form or another to people of apparent Arabic descent!

lonegunman, the alternative to Hiroshima/Nagasaki was several million casualties, to take the Japanese main islands. It was estimated that Allied forces, alone, would take nearly a million casualties; over three to maybe over four million Japanese. 100,000 was better.

Me, I believe in weapons of mass destruction. Preferably, chemical. Why, just this late afternoon, I mixed a cup of Dove liquid soap, two cups of gasoline and five gallons of water. I reckon I killed tens of thousands of fahr aints.



Art

[ds1973]

O.K.

Terrorists operate FROM SOMEWHERE, live SOMEWHERE, train SOMEWHERE, hide SOMEWHERE. This somewhere is a country or group of countries. Example, Libya,
Afghanistan, etc. We declare war on those countries and hit them harder than we've hit anyone since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We accept unconditional surrender and then we step in and inform them:

Here is your new constitution. You will respect individual rights, you will respect individual property and freedom. Your past actions have no
place in a rational society, you will adopt a laissez-faire capitalist system and a constitutional republic. Here is a loan, now go forth, rebuild, produce, trade and prosper. Pay us back at an interest rate of X over the next Y years.

In the meantime, there's no need to hinder our domestic air travelers any more. We start having a plain clothed WELL-TRAINED armed guard (carrying concealed of course) on each and every flight. His ONLY duty will be to stay undercover until someone or some group tries to hijack the plane. He will then promptly put a bullet through their heads.

Additionally, instead of limiting the rights of law abiding Americans, we encourage every citizen to be alert, and if they wish, to carry a firearm and defend themselves ONLY IF THREATENED WITH EMINENT DEATH. Just as our Idaho CCW class taught. Murder will be punished, justifiable homicide in defense of ones life and family is perfectly
legitimate. Additionally, all individuals in this country are innocent until proven guilty so violence against people who are (or look like)
Muslims, will not be tolerated. Our country will not be Balkanized by this act of war.

[Stephen Ewing]

Ninenot, it was the STATED GOAL of RAF Bomber Command to kill as many civilians as possible, regardless of military connection.

Arthur Harris was quoted as saying, and I may have a word or two off, but I'm D*** close here, "It takes a few hours to rebuild a factory; it takes 18 years to replace a worker." Yes, the rules of war are quite specific: If you win, you won't get tried for the murder of civilians.

Okay, I've really got a problem with the notion that war was ever clean. Ask me about the origin of "Kill them all, let God sort them out." It's a vicious, bloody, nasty business, won by the bloodiest, nastiest, most vicious participant.

No disagreement with the idea that domestic civilians of any origin are a poor target for many reasons, but the civilians in Afghanistan have made their choice.

Steve

[nualle]

ninenot:

if "to deliberately kill innocent civilian non-combatants is murder"

lonegunman:

then could you explain
Hiroshima and Nagasaki???
I did not realize we evacuated the civilians before we nuked those cities.

Okay, I'll go ahead and say it. The U.S. was in the wrong dropping nukes. The second one (on Nagasaki) doubly so. The U.S. is a political entity and only as morally upright as we, its citizens, can force it to be. (Ergo, RKBA, remember?)

Flame away.

[Libertarian]

However: NO INNOCENTS. Attacking innocent victims is their game -- not ours. WE ARE AMERICA -- WE ARE NOT A TERRORIST NATION -- PERIOD.

Amen, Lawdog. Spoken like a true PEACE OFFICER. (And I mean that with all sincerity and respect.)

[Seeker]

Your comments here are much appreciated and you speak with the voice of calm reason.

Not all Arabs are bad guys, nor all muslims. And by the same token not all white folk or christians are not good.

In every ethnic and religious group there are good people and bad people.

I am disgusted by some of the recent events I am hearing about in the media (just as I am disgusted by what happened to the WTC and Pentagon) - I have heard of American being attacked, vebally and physically, because they have darker skin or wear a turban (even Sihks have been attacked becuase some bigot thought they were arabs!)

Also, I have noticed a number of newer members to TFL that seem to lack tolerance and respect for others - to me this seems to be counter to what America is about.

Yes, I am in favor of bringing the people that commited this atrocity to justice. I am against these Xenophobic and racist attacks and insults.

Some people are good, some are bad. Thankfully there are more good people in every country, religion and race than there are bad people.

Thanks Lawdog for taking the High Road!

[RikWriter]

Okay, I'll go ahead and say it. The U.S. was in the wrong dropping nukes. The second one (on Nagasaki) doubly so. The U.S. is a political entity and only as morally upright as we, its citizens, can force it to be. (Ergo, RKBA, remember?)

Sorry, can't agree. The duty of our government is to preserve the lives of its citizens first and foremost, including its military men, if need be at the expense of the lives of the citizens of a state with whom we are at war. Japanese subjects did not have American constitutional rights. Dropping the A-bomb saved possibly hundreds of thousands of American lives and it was 100% the right thing to do.

[Monkeyleg]

God, I never thought there would be such a fierce clash of opinions on TFL. But, then again, the thought of three commercial jets being flown as kamikazie missions into the world's most widely recognized and heavily populated buildings was an abstract at best.

Again, what is an appropriate level of military retaliation? Is there any historical precedent for an action taken to avenge the lives of ten or twenty or more thousand innocents lost in a single act? That's not a rhetorical question. There are those here who are steeped in military history. Is there a formula or ratio to be applied?

Politically--and by that I mean the mood of the body politic, not Repub's vs. Dem's--the public will not be satisfied by the mere transfer of Usama bin Laden and a few of his gang to our custody. Some will feel that the punishment is insufficient; others will feel it's appropriate. Most, however, will not be satisfied unless an at least equal number of the enemy die, and their deaths are broadcast on CNN.

If he does anything less, Bush will be denounced as a weak leader. If he does anything more, his opposition will raise the issue of executions in Texas under his governorship as additional proof that he is bloodthirsty.

Clinton got off easy: launch a couple of cruise missiles and keep his pants up when the cameras were on. Bush faces the greatest domestic and military crisis in sixty years. His actions will directly and likely fatally affect tens of millions of world citizens for decades to come.

That's some heavy baggage for a dumb-as-dirt backwater Texas fratboy.

Anybody else want to make these decisions?

[Silver Bullet]

My post is not about religion, and it is not about ethnicity. It is about doing what is necessary to save American lives in the future.

The situation with the terrorists is now a war, not some felony. 5000 Americans (innocent people) have just been killed, and the enemy has just begun. The rules of war are different than the rules of non-war. When we nuked Japan the rationale I usually read is that we would have lost many thousands of American soldiers if we tried to finish them off conventionally; it was them or us. We chose them. We're in a similar situation now; we can hit hard and bring this thing to an earlier close, or we can continue to lob the occasional Tomahawk and throw in some sanctions and watch while another 5000 Americans get killed.

If all we do is arrest and execute Lin Baden, another one takes his place. He kills another 5000 Americans, another billion dollars in property damage is lost, and we execute him. Oh, goody, we're 2-0 against the bad guys, we got them both! Sorry, but trading 5000 of us (plus 1 $Billion) for one of them doesn't make me feel good for the future. Multiply this scenario by 1000 times and eventually you kind of realize that to WIN, you have to inflict greater damage.

[Long Path]

I'm pissed. I'm mad. I want vengeance extracted.

But we don't purposely kill the innocents. We don't even kill those who are happy to see harm done us.

We attack those who attacked us. Yeah, that's harder, isn't it?

Not all Arabic Moslems hate the U.S. Not all of those that do hate the U.S. would do harm to the U.S.

If a black a group of black men had committed this crime, would you be for bombing the continent of Africa?

If the actions had been taken by men with guns, would you be for attacking all gun-owners in the world?

There are attackers from this plot who were in Germany. Why don't I hear cries for a fuel-air bomb dropped over Hamburg?

Attacking the entire nations of the terrorists would be a crime. A hate crime. Crimes based on ethnicism and raceism. That's not what THIS nation is about.

But our nation can extract vengeance from those who are responsible.

What a stupid test of our will-- it is all we can do to rein in our anger even on the innocents. We'll have to hold that in, long enough to focus our hate on those responsible.

--Matt