A 1849 Pocket: real case colors? Or reblued?

[r010159]

Here is a 1849 Pocket that I have purchased from him. There is one niggle that I have about it that I want to resolve here before the end of my inspection period after I have received it. He has told me in the past that the frame has case colors. In this photo, the frame also looks to be blued. Do you think this is a revolver that has been reblued?



Here is the original advertisement: http://www.gunsinternational.com/gun...n_id=100669785

Thanks,

Bob

[Bill DeShivs]

It's a revolver that has been cold blued.

[James K]

There is something about that gun that bothers me. Maybe it is just a trick of the light or distortion by the camera, but the rear of the frame seems not to be parallel to the front of the cylinder and the rear of the barrel. Plus the frame at the rear looks like it is "taller" than it should be and the screw holes are just a tad off both in position and in the angle of the two bottom screws to the frame. The angle between the rear of the frame and the bottom of the frame appears greater than it should be.

Further, the rear of the frame should be at a perfect right angle to the top of the frame below the cylinder; it does not appear to be. And the cylinder looks longer than it should be.

Like I say, it might just be a trick of the picture taking, but based on that picture, I would wonder about that gun.

The unfinished look of the trigger guard is fairly common in the conversions where they were using up old parts and not worrying a lot about doing the normal polishing and shaping of the castings, but it would be very odd on an early gun, and none of my percussion '49's have that look, though my .38 RF conversion does.

I am no Colt expert, but I have some 1849's and have seen and handled probably two hundred or more, and after a while you get a sort of idea what they look like.

Jim

P.S. I agree with Bill; the gun certainly appears to have been polished and cold blued.

JK

[r010159]

What does "cold blued" mean? OK I have viewed some videos on the cool bluing process and the results. Wouldn't the result be black? It does look to have been through some bluing process. Also it is a bit too shiny.

BTW the revolver was made in 1868, so late model. This is why I considered the original finish to be intact. But I think the original finish woukd be black. So then I thiugh the orginal finish is delaninating. This would explain the darkish grey, and why if the light is right, I see tones of a brownish rust color. This has been my thought process.

Bob

[James K]

Check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_%28steel%29 for some info on cold bluing. Depending on the exact chemical and the degree of polish, the color can be black or blue (it is actually the refraction of the light that makes the color). In general, cold blue is not durable, though some hold up better than others.

The original finish would have been a highly polished blue-black, though some wartime guns tend more toward blue. In certain lights, rust blue (and cold blue) can appear to be solid rust. I recall a fellow who installed a halogen light of some kind in his gun safe and almost had a heart attack when he opened the door later and thought that his fine Lugers had all rusted!

I don't know if there are gun shows in your area, but if possible you should try to get to as many as you can, and just look at the guns. I have never bought "on line" in part because I am an old fuddy-duddy but also because I want to see what I am buying. If you buy on line, and the item is not right or is not even sent, it can be very difficult, if not impossible, to get a refund. In theory you can sue, but you have to do that in the seller's state, plus pay a lawyer in that state, and an expert to testify on your behalf. All in all, most folks just eat the loss and the crooks get away with their schemes.

Jim

[r010159]

Poor fellow with his Lugers. So rust bluing was done in layers. I can see where this can appear as rust with the right light. Now cold bluing also can look this way? Are you sure? I will take your word for it. I think with the Luger example we are dealing with rust bluing. But of course a newbie like me can be wrong.

I will see my situation in the form of a litmus type of test. If I can recognize genuine case colors with his additional photos, I will have him send the pistol to me for further evaluation. Still, I will post one of the photos here for your consideration. I do appreciate all of your help. It is truely a jungle out there!

Bob

PS I think Colt has altered its bluing process over time. I think they have used both fume bluing and rust bluing at different times. What do you think?

[Hawg]

I think you're in way over your head.

[Bill DeShivs]

Ditto

[r010159]

Now that is not very helpful. That is why I am here trying to learn. We are all here to help each other, correct?

I remember a process akin to rust bluing being described in a book on Colt. This is supported by a scientific document that I have found on the net when they analyzed the surface of various 1800s Colt revolvers. That is why I mentioned it. But I understand this does not mean anything with regards to 1849 Pockets.

http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi...scripps_theses

I do not believe bluing is difficult to understand. It is a simple chemical process that can be arrived at in different ways. The method chosen by Colt probably would be dictated by expediency, and the type of desired look to the finish. I just need to understand what bluing process was used, and how that finish can age over time. More simply, I need to understand how the current finish on a particukar 1849 Pocket was arrived at. Was it a more recent cold bluing process? Or was it one of the bluing processes used during the 1800s? Now this should be an easy question to answer here with all of you knowledgeable people, correct? Or am I wrong?

I am just here to learn.

James K seems to be one of the more helpful people here, as I am sure there are others. I am thinking that he may be correct in stating that this 1849 Pocket's finish may have been arrived at from a more recent bluing process. This is worthwhile information to me indeed! It is not looking good for this gun purchase. The seller will be providing me with additional photos soon.

Bob

[Captchee]

Just my opinion but I would say its cold blue and not one of the better cold blues.
Its looks to have been knocked back to give the aged look . Cold blue can also give colors that resemble the colors in case hardening .
Rust blue and chemical cold blues are 2 completely different things .
I don’t believe it’s a rust blue .
Manufactures did rust bluing in several different ways and each had their own process . But they all come down to the same basic principles.
Rust the part
Subject the rusted part to the right temp of a hydrogen , oxygen “ simple H2O” and the red iron oxide converts to black iron oxides .
The heavy scale is carded away either before or after the conversion leaving only the fine rusting . The process is repeated until the desired depth of color is achieved .
Those colors can range from grey browns all the way to black , deep blue to a very hard blue purple .

When rust blue wears , what you achieve is a nice gunmetal color in areas of high use or where the gun had rubbed against either a holster , pocket liner , … look for areas where your hands would touch a lot .
Other areas will remain darker do to the rust actually staining the surface of the metal .
So what you end up with can range from a consistent color of grey to more of a blocky color transition .
The piece your looking at appears to me and maybe its just the photo , but it looks like the transition is more brushed / Streaky .
Even the shine in some areas appears to reminiscent of a cold blue that’s been buffed back with steel wool . Then buffed and oiled ..
Again all that’s subject to what im seeing or think I see in the photos .
Which could be completely different in real life .

[99whip]

Hey Bob,

I own no original Colt models, only replicas, but do aspire to own an original at some point and look closely at them any time I find one.

If something bugs you about this one, just hold your horses and find a copy that has fewer question marks. I believe Colt sold more Pocket models than any other which means there are plenty of good ones out there, if getting one that you don't have to question condition is important to you.

Not even close to answering your question, but FWIW just something I've learned and had knowledgable collectors tell me.

Regards,

99whip

[r010159]

Yes, I am afraid you guys may be onto something here. One suggested to me that it was a cold blued refreshing to darken the original bluing and give the appearance that more of the original bluing survived. Then it was polished. The grips may have been revarnished too. This is one attractive gun. But perhaps not completely authentic. The price would go down accordingly. Someone may have done this for his collection, or to mislead in a resale.

I agree that if there are too many questions that cannot be answered, it is best to pass on it. The seller will provide me with some more photos this weekend. So I will postpone my decision until I see them.

Bob

[Bill DeShivs]

Why was my reply not helpful?
I told you it was cold blued. You asked.
Cold blue doesn't "refresh" existing bluing- it ruins it.

[Bill DeShivs]

Very nice Woodsman!

[4V50 Gary]

Looks cold blued to me.

All bluing processes require that the item is degreased before application of the finish.

Cold blue is applied to metal while the metal is at room temperature. It's OK for hiding scratches but is not as durable as hot rust blue.

Hot rust blue requires the metal to be immersed in a tank with buling salts (minimally around 285 F). It is left there before being removed and placed in a tank filled with neutralizing solution. Afterward it is rinsed, oil and allowed to cure for 24 hours.

Slow rust blue requires that after degreasing, that a solution is applied over the bare metal and the metal placed into a sweat box to rust for 24 hours. Mind you, in more humid climates like San Francisco just hang it in your garage. After 24 hours, the metal is removed and carded (steel wool) to remove the scales. It is degreased again and another application of bluing solution is applied BEFORE it is returned to the sweat box. This process is repeated until the desired darkness is attained (revealed after carding). Then it is washed with a baking soda solution to neutralize the bluing, rinsesd and oiled.

Express bluing is another process (look it up and I've left instructions at the Smithy forum).

[Captchee]

If I may and with all do respect Gary .
Bluing salts such as Brownells offer and Niter salts that are readily available in a lot of gardening supply shops are not rust bluing . They create coloring by temperature.
Brownells low temp salts melt at a lower temperature but the still raise the part tempature to the required natural color of Niter bluing . Niter salts however melt at around 650 degrees . Thus the part goes through the straw to blue shades faster making the coloring harder to control then with the lower melting salts which can be more easly regulated in temperature .
Yes both need to be degreased . But not to the existent the manufacture would do with tanks unless your doing mass production .

manufactures are also starting to market chemicals agents that they call rust blue . they work , but IMO they dont really look like right . kinda like using plum brown vs an actual rust brown finish .

Any type of finish should actually be degreased to include rust brown .. However today there are a lot of different rusting agent out there ., some do not require degreasing .
As a note to that there are also rusting agents available which produce every color of Iron Oxide on metal . Ranging from shades of blue , greens , different shades of reds , yellow ……………….. Even combinations of colors all in one .The days of having to chose brown or shades of black are long gone .

Hot chemical blue or hot tank blue ,should not me confused with rust bluing be it hot or cold / slow methods.
Hot blue is what most manufactures use today its not a rusting it’s a chemical reaction that produces the durable finish . While the process has all kinds of chemical regulations , safety precautions and certified disposal requirements.

Hot rust bluing which I also do , requires 3 tanks . I normally only use the process for Damascus barrels. It basically is no different then the slow rust method other then the rusting is accelerated by chemical means .
I use bleach which if done correctly doesn’t pit and age the barrel like some seem to think it will . Auqa Fortis also works well in both hot and cold application . Once the rust has accumulated the part goes into a boil tank , then to a dye tank . In this tank I have a solution of Logwood .The dye tank isn’t to make the blue. that’s done in the boil . its to deepen the color and help set it . This process is very beneficial in defining patterns on pattern barrels . On none pattern barrels it creates a very deep hard blue color .
The next tank has a solution of Ferrous Fumorate and distilled water . Ferrous Gluconate will also work but its alittle slower . What this tank does is lift the lose rusting , leaving only the stain type rust .. Literally the surface scale can be simply rinsed off after a few minutes in the tank . This works especially well on pattern type barrels as the Ferrous works more slowly on higher iron content in the pattern. Thus allowing it to become more defined with each replication of the process with the lower iron content areas taking less color .

Slow rust bluing or browning is just that . A part is rusted slowly by means of either a humidity closet or my average humidity in the environment . The rusting of the part can be stimulated by application of an agent . That can range from simple water or urine all the way to any number of chemical agents on the market today .

The process for converting can be the same throughout both processes .. IE you can slow rust / brown a part and use the Hot rust bluing process to convert the brown rust to blue
The only difference In base is how the rust is converted . That changes from manufacture to manufacture . As a result so does/ did the color . IE the Blue of a Parker Hale isn’t the blue color found on a Winchester . Nor was the blue on a Colt the same as the Blue on a Remington . Yet today most all manufactures have much the same color produced by the hot blue method.
Even the process used by Remington which included large furnaces and steam were not defined tell the very end of the 19th century early 20th .

One other very large difference between the Rust blue processes and the chemical processes is the required finish prior to bluing.
For the most part chemical bluing be it using salts or hot bath takes a higher quality metal finish prior to bluing . Where rust bluing normally was done to a finish of around 3-400 grit . While rusting will take place on a higher finish surface , its slow to develop and thus takes more time to create the finish and really doesn’t produce that better of an end product .
Case in point If one was to take an original Parker shotgun . And had the barrels finished today , using today’s general methods , it would be wonderful . However it would be wrong and easily noted as being refinished .

Im also not sure about the using cold blue to enhance an existing blue ?
That ones got me scratching my head .

[James K]

The tip-off on that gun is not only the color,, but also the rounded edges that should be sharp, like the barrel angles. Those were always sharp and even. If they are not, a refinishing is likely. The only way to know what to look for is to look at guns, lots of them. That is why I strongly suggest that you hold onto your money until you go to some gun shows and LOOK AT GUNS. Some dealers will even let you photograph guns if you want (always ask!!). Look at colors. Look at cased sets, as those are more likely to have the original finish. Examine guns closely (again always ask before picking up a gun and NEVER cock or work an antique gun) to get a "feel" for what originals look like.

And buy books. Good books are expensive, but well worth it, not only in themselves for good reading, but because they provide information. It also helps to know history. There is an old joke about someone paying a high price for the gun Grant carried at Gettysburg. Anyone with a knowledge of history would know that Grant was not at that battle.

You seem to not be concerned much about condition. But in the field of antique guns, that is the main determinant of value. One 1851 Navy might cost $5000 and another $500 - the difference is condition. And if I don't know what to look for I might pay $5000 for the $500 gun, not a very wise move.

(Interesting about Lugers - ones made prior to the mid-1930's are rust blued, a "soft" looking blue. Ones made after that are hot tank blued. Again, knowing the difference is important; a 1910 Luger that has been tank blued is not original and is worth a lot less than one with its original finish.)

Yes, you can use cold blue to "enhance" the original finish by darkening worn spots, masking scratches, etc. It is a common practice. Cold blue has a distinct odor, which is why you will sometimes see people at gun shows using a literal "sniff test" on a gun.

Jim

[r010159]

I have come accross some additional information on this 1849 Pocket due to my detective work. It is an auction at James Julia that occurred several year ago. The link is to the original description and asessment of condition made by an agent of theirs which I assume had good knowledge of Colt firearms. But maybe not. The overall description, and most importantly, the serial number matches. I suspected that the seller may have won this firearm at a James Julia auction. This is where he had purchased another firearm that I have purchased in the past. So I did a search of their database and came up with this.

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-2147...evolver-49601/

Was the firearm agent of James Julia ignorant on how firearms can be made to look better than they were from their original condition? Perhaps. I hope the description will provide additional information for us to consider. But from what I gather so far, there seems to be opinions here consolidating around the idea that this firearm was cold blued. I can see where this may be the case.

Bob

[AKexpat]

James D. Julia has/has had many high-dollar pistols for auction, but I am somewhat doubtful as to their "provenance" concerning certain items.

I have recently seen a James D. Julia description of a 1849 Colt Pocket 5-shot with 6 safety pins on the cylinder.

Somehow, that geometry does not work.

Jim

[r010159]

Good point. They make mistakes, and in that case a very big one. Obviously they do not double check their work.

Bob

[Mk VII]

Cold bluing tends to leave a distinctive smell on firearms that it has been used on. It also doesn't last very long before it wears bright again (guns being used/carried, obviously).
Of course lots of things can have happened to it since it left Julia's possession. We note that the action screws had shiny areas in Julia's photograph, and now they do not. They also looked flatter on the heads

[James K]

I have a hard time believing those pictures are of the same gun, though I will accept the OP's word. The Julia pics show a lot of remaining CCH and more silver than the recent pics seem to, and much sharper corners. That might all be due to different conditions of photography, but to me it only increases the questions rather than answering them. (And may well show the futility of trying to make assessments from photographs.)

Jim

[Hawg]

The four digits on the cylinder of the Julia gun match the last four of the serial number on the Guns International so it is the same one.

[r010159]

Jim, I agree with you. Camera and lighting? I am certain that the pistol definitely looks polished. That is what makes it odd, polished rich grey colors. I have looked at over one hundred photos and have not found this to be true for other 1849 Pockets, not quite like this. Unnatural.

Bob

[Roshi]

I have antiqued some Pietta revolvers to get that old look using a browning solution followed by boiling water rinse and then buffing. It produces the same look that the frame on this revolver has, a patina blue.

It is of course up to you but I would be very cautious.