Winchester model 100 expert needed

[98 220 swift]

I am haing trouble with my grandpa's 1962 model 100. First the extrctor broke so I replaced it. After this the trigger disconnect does not release when fired. It works when letting the bolt slam shut but not when fired or letting the bolt down easy. I undertand how it works( looks like a bad design to me) but cant figure out why it does not work properly now. I did not take the trigger assy apart when doing the extractor. Can anybody help?

[T. O'Heir]

Sounds like you may have reassembled it incorrectly. Manual is here. http://stevespages.com/pdf/winchester_100.pdf

[98 220 swift]

No I do not believe it assembled wrong. Its like the action bars are not pushing down hard enough on the roller for the disconnect.

[Snyper]

Disassemble as needed to keep the solvents off the wood, and flush it out with carb cleaner, an air hose, and then a good silicone lube and try it again.

There may be some small chips from the broken extractor or other debris in the action

[98 220 swift]

Already took back part several times. Trigger assy has been apart and cleaned and lubed. Same results. Its like the receiver and trigger assy are not fitting tight enough. Even though none of that should have been changed buy taking the bolt out of it. Bolt has been out of gun a few times in the last few years and has worked fine afterward.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

Are you sure that the bolt is closing, and that nothing is rubbing around the gas piston and cylinder? It kind of sounds like this may be what it is, in that the bolt needs that little hard nudge to get it to fully close, which would mean something rubbing or catching. If the bolt is not fully closed, the sear will not release.

Did you fully disassemble the bolt and clean it? I think these have a rotary bolt, if I recall.

[98 220 swift]

The bolt is fully closed. And yes it is a rotary bolt. And yes the bolt was fully disassembled and lubed. To me it's a weird way to have a disconnector system.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

Since the extractor was what was changed, look at the extractor cut in the end of the barrel, for any dirt, or any nicks, dings, etc. That could hamper the bolt too. It only takes 0.001" difference in bolt movement to affect the disconnector and sear. Thoroughly clean the recesses in the barrel, and you might even try to use some emery to clean the surface of the barrels extractor cut, or just the edge of the extractor, which would come into contact with the extractor cut in the barrel. Look for anything that could keep the bolt from moving completely forward, and rotating as far as it should.

I do not think it is the trigger assembly, or the fit between it and the receiver. The trigger assembly, and even the gas system, was modeled somewhat after a M1 carbine, or that is as close to anything I have seen. They are not the same, but similar in some ways. Anyhow, don't work on the disconnector, as if that was to get off, it could allow the sear to work before the bolt was fully locked.

[98 220 swift]

It's all clean. It can be made to work of the receiver is held down. There is some play where it fits into the block in the stock like a m1 carbine. It's like there is too much play in the trigger to receiver fit but I cannot figure out a way to tighten it up. It's worked fine for the last 50 years.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

Pull the bolt back, and ease it forward, as you mentioned, where it doesn't want to work. After the bolt has came to a stop and is sitting in battery, then, put pressure behind the bolt handle with you thumb, and give it another push forward, then try and see if it will work.

I'm thinking it still may be a difference in extractor thickness, and by doing this, it will cause the extractor to slightly move under its spring pressure.

Since it worked beforehand, and has been taken down before, without any problems, I would assume the cause is over something that was changed, which would have been the extractor. The trigger guard will have a little slop in it, when everything is outside the stock, and just the trigger guard screw in the receiver extension (recoil block), but it should all draw up tight, once it is all assembled.

Also, there was a change in the extractor above serial number 119,000, so they're two different part numbers. I'm not sure what they changed without trying to look it up.

Let me know what it does, and then I'll look at the Winchester gunsmithing manual on it tomorrow.

[Gunfixr]

As far as your disconnection problem, most likely either the parts in the trigger group are sticking due to the 50 yr old lubricant, pieces of broken extractor, or the bolt and carrier aren't closing properly or binding, which could be a number of things.
On another note, you do know this rifle has a safety recall, don't you? The firing pins in these rifles were later found to be a defective design. When the pin breaks, the front part can get stuck protruding, and rifle will fire as it closes, without a locked breech. It can either go full auto, or fire with an unlocked breech, and blow out the side of the receiver.
If you are not sure, just Google winchester 100 recall. There is a number to call, toll free. Give them your serial number, and they can tell you if it's been fixed or not. If not, you send them your old firing pin, and they send you a new one and new bolt cam pin.

[98 220 swift]

I reassembled the rife. The bolt will not go forward when pushing on the handle. It will reset the dissconector if you pull the reciever and trigger gaurd together with your hand it will click and then be ok. I have since taken the trigger assembly apart and it is clean and oiled well( probably too much) it seem too work better when apart but changes nothing when assembled. I know about the recall and it has already been done on this rifle. Im at my wits end. Like I said if I could elimanate the slack between the reciever and trigger assy I believe it would be fixed but I cant think of a way to do it. I also can see what dissessembing the rifle would cause any extra slack.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

I'll look this up a little later, but would you still have the broken extractor, so you can compare it to the old one? Also, did you order the correct one for the serial number changing at 119,000, or did they send the correct one?

The trigger guard will sort of center itself when you put the screw in, and tighten it, which should put it where it needs to be from the factory. The disconnector only clears by a hairs breath when the bolt is fully locked, so any change in the bolt or gas system position could cause it to not operate.

[98 220 swift]

I do have the old extractor. I ordered the one for below 119000. It looks like the other one. I don't know what they changed on them though.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

Did you put the trigger guard pin back in at the front, where you drive it through the notch in the bolt operating slide rail? Also, was it the correct pin, as this should keep the trigger guard from moving forward or backward? The movement in the trigger guard I spoke of above should be a little up and down, without the screw in the rear to pull it tight to the recoil block at assembly with the stock.

[98 220 swift]

yes I put the pin back in and it is the correct one. There is not movement in the front of the trigger guard. The movement is in the rear between the receiver and the block.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

Well, there's one way to tell for sure whether the new extractor is the cause of this, and that is to remove it from the bolt, put the gun back together, and see if the gun operates normally without it. If it does, then I think you'll have to do some fitting in the extractor, as it is maybe a shade too long on its nose, or a little too wide.

I know you hate to tear it down again, but that is the only way I can tell you to do it without actually seeing the gun myself.

[98 220 swift]

I will try it later tonight. I may not even need to disassemble the rifle to remove it.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

Although the bolt below uses the newer extractor, (the only difference is the outside edge of the older is V shaped instead of rounded), they show how the lip or raised edge sticks out on the front of the extractor, and this should be flush to the bolt face, and either end of the lip tapered. The outside edge should be set into the bolt, and not extend outward past the lug face.


100-Bolt by matneyw, on Flickr


100-Bolt-2 by matneyw, on Flickr


100-Bolt-3 by matneyw, on Flickr

[98 220 swift]

No change with extractor removed. When let down hard will release disconnector some times. Easy will not. If push receiver and trigger assy together will release.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

Well, I'm stumped, as it was working before it was taken apart. You have all the old extractor, so there's nothing that fell into the trigger guard housing.

I'll look at the take-down and service manual again tomorrow. There is something I must be missing, but I'll re-read what I did this morning, and let you know.

Edit:

I found what I was looking for, and I am wondering if all these model 100's had these. The early versions, at least, had what was known as a trigger lock lever, which set in front of the hammer, and just behind the T-shaped metal piece that makes the back of the magazine well in the trigger guard. It is a camming piece, and is spring loaded. It toggles on a pin that's driven through the front of the trigger guard and in front of the hammer pin, and there should be a hole in those steel arms for it at the front. This is supposed to block the trigger, if the bolt isn't closed. If your gun does not have this, then it should fire, even if the bolt is not all the way closed.

The hammer is held back by the hammer hook or disconnector, pinned to the rear of the trigger, for semi-auto fire. It should move freely, and is spring loaded. Also, with the safety off, the trigger should move easy, and check for its spring tension. When you release the trigger, after it re-cocks, the hammer hook or disconnector should pull off the notch on the hammer, and allow the sear hook to catch on the forward sear notch just below where the hammer hook catches on the hammer. If it does not have the trigger lock lever, then it should fire, unless something is fouling the action of the hammer hook (disconnector). If it does have the trigger lock lever, look for it to be fouled, and not moving properly.

What was throwing me, is that the parts drawings do not show the trigger lock lever, but the NRA disassembly guide does. However, it shows a drawing of the older model, which has the machined hammer hook, and not the bent sheet metal one. I knew these had a trigger lock lever, which blocks the trigger if the bolt isn't closed, but I don't see this on some photos I've seen, nor on parts lists. If it is in yours, it will sit right in front of the hammer, held by a thru-pivot pin. There is another pin in it's side, with a pan head on it, and a plunger and spring in the front of it. The cam block has a lever arm that reaches down into the trigger guard to block the front of the trigger from working. Check for this.

[Gunfixr]

So you can squeeze the trigger assembly up against the receiver and it works.
Have you bolted it all into the stock, and tightened both screws down yet?
Unless something has been bent, which it sounds as if you've been careful enough not to do, sounds like something isn't installed exactly right, and it pushes down on the trigger group.
I don't currently have one in the shop to look at for possibilities.

[wachtelhund1]

I'm no gunsmith, but I have three Win 100's and have worked on all of them in the past. Dixie Gunsmithing and Gunfixr seem to have coved most of the issues. But one thing popped out as I read this thread. You said it worked when you squeezed the receiver down, that there was play between the receive and recoil block. The action and recoil block should be tight together when the rear trigger guard screw is inserted and tightened. If it is not, it will cause problems with the cocking system. If you have play between the rear upper receiver and the recoil block which can be squeezed down, it is not assembled correctly. I don't believe the extractor would cause this play in the receiver. Even if the bolt doesn't fully close, there should be no play in the receiver and block. I would look for reasons why you have play in the receive. Did you remove the recoil block, was there shim material under the recoil block the may have fallen out. Is the gas piston and charging rails assembled correctly. Re-look at the front pin that holds the front rail system block to the upper receiver. Is it through the hole. Take the magazine out and look at the rails from the magazine well. They should be tight up to the upper receiver, no more than .002 or .003"

[98 220 swift]

I cant see how I assembled it incorrectly. I don't remember how much play there was in it before hand. I have taken the block out and there is no shims. The rails are tight up against the receiver. If they where down a little this problem would not happen.

Dixie I believe I have the setup you are talking about. I have never taken another apart so I don't know if they are different. I know they changed something in 1962 but I don't know what. I took some pics but cant get them to upload now. I will upload them later when I get a chance.

[98 220 swift]

Here is some pics