Lube

[butchb243]

If I put in lube cups , do you think this stuff will work on my atheritis?

Only used a few drops on the bolt rails before I went hunting the other day, but gave the gun a good cleaning when I got back , with FP10 . Cant wait to go again , now!

[Firepower]

If I put in lube cups , do you think this stuff will work on my atheritis?

Hey Butch (great post there, previous to this, too...thanks!!!)

Please use the suggested universal joint remedy...WD-40

:barf: :barf: :barf:


Best regards,
George

[demarpaint]

WD 40 can take the blueing off a gun. Blueing is a corrosion process and WD 40 removes corrosion. Kroil works for me, it cleans lubricates and protects. It's thin and gets into the pores of the metal.

Good shooting

[Vin]

Has anyone tried Butch's Gun Oil and have any opinions about it's lubrication qualities and protection against rust? I know Butch's Bore Shine seems to be a popular bore solvent so I was curious about the gun oil.

[edwardellis]

New or old pistols both corbon and stainless steel.
What I found was the best procedure I have found by far.
Field strip as usual incliding the grips.
Totally clean with a good degreaser cleaner.
Wash in strong dish water detergent.
Rinse throughly under running water.
Bake in oven for one hour at 170 deg. thats my lowest setting on my oven.
While still warm coat completely with Militec-1.
Bake again for one hour.
Remove and lay on towel to drain turning several times.
Do this for one day because it will take some time to drain well.
Put it all back together.
Dry fire it and it will seem to be like a totally different gun.
The trigger pull will feel like it has had a trigger job.
Totally amazing.
I have been shooting over 40 years and this was
the most amazing thing I have ever done.
Hand it to a friend who has shot it a lot.
The next question will be who did the trigger job.
Ed

[Firepower]

Mr. Ellis,

How many firearms do you think will withstand a bath in a "chlorinated alpa olefin" at 60% chlorine by weight, and then subjected to a halogenating catalytic reacting temperature (near 210 deg F) forming a highly concentrated film of ferric chloride on the entire surface area of the firearm and then....exposing it to moisture or high humidity?

Let me tell you, the results can be catastrophic.

What you are suggesting to these folks, (and you better damn well be ready to take responsibility for your actions) is risking their firearms to a severe corrosion scenario that can result in metal etching, surface fracturing, micro-pitting, and the latticular breakdown of the structure of the steels near the surface due to surface depletion after exposure to moisture and the ferric chloride is replaced by ferric oxide (rust).

I am so distraught with the mythology and disinformation perpetrated by the likes of self appointed "pundits" of lubrication and firearms maintenence such as you seem to be, while giving no thought to the consequential outcome and lon-term affects that will be suffered by others, should the choose to take your "lubri-babble" seriously.

It would not surprise me to learn that someone else from the "dark side" had put you up to this rediculously dangerous concept of boundary film formation using Militec-1 (see above chemical description) in order to sensationalize the short term effect of the automotive/metalworking additive.

Tell you what I'm going to do....just for you and the folks who are interested...
I'll take some Militec-1, coat a piece of chrome moly steel test panel, after following your scrub-a-dub directions, and bake it as you say. Then, after drying, give it the old water vapor test and see what happens. Heck, I'll even take pictures and put them on the web for everyone to see, just like I did for the "rusty plate test" with BreakFree.

Now, you just wait there, and I'll be back soon, ya'hear?

Regards,
George

[edwardellis]

1 Your company name raises a red flag.
2 Your product is not used by the military my research found.
3 I releaize your company is loosing a lot of sales to your competer.
4 I was not picking on your product ,just showing a much better product.
5 Militec backed backed up my post by email.
6 They are not stupid enough to back it up in writing
which would leave them open to a law suit.
7 If people do a through research on both products
You will loose more business.
8 When peoply loose their cool and get irate they loose
their ability to think clearly as you have and I suppect
you are going to have some problems with your boss.
9 Let the peoply do their own through research and make their
own decision.
10 People who loose their logical thinking quickly shoud not
be playing around with chemicals.
11 Educaion and a degree do not create an intelligence person.
12 I hope your company developes a product that ups every body else.
then I will do my research and praise it.
14 I wish you the best but feel sorry for you.
15 I am afraid I am going to see a rigged test in your reply.
16 Militec has already addressed the CLP type products.

[Desert Pete]

Yeah, whatever he said. Anybody knows all them there big words has to know what he's talking about.

[Romulus]

While George Fennell does not always measure his words - his all-too-strong reaction to Cruzer's posts come to mind, the latter was merely answering queries from me and other members - he does nevertheless present detailed technical responses. I am in no position to judge their accuracy, but nor have I any reason to suspect their inaccuracy. In fact, George has made quite a convincing case, judging by the reaction on this and other forums.

Edwardellis, would you kindly proffer some specific replies to George's critique, or will you simply resort to semi-literate ramblings?

"Your company name raises a flag" "militec" sounds really contrived to some of us civvies out there...

[Celt]

WD-40 is the worst thing that you can use on your firearms.
It is not a very good lubricant and if coated with the stuff and stored it will leave a laquer like film that is a PITA to remove. It can and does eventually take blueing off.

AT best WD should only be used as an emergency lube or water remover when NOTHING else is available. Good old 3in1 oil is far better than WD for firearms.
That being said I would like to address some of the other lubes mentioned in this thread.

Break free is a decent lube and works well. It started to replace LSA in the 80's for the military. It worls far better than the old LSA issued back then.

FP-10 is also a very good lube, and if I am not mistaken, being that it had metal conditioners in it and does not rely upon PTFE particles suspended in oil especially if put inside a barrel. Never use anything with PTFE (Telfon) inside a barrel.

Tetra lube is an OK lube, but it depends on PTFE particles suspended in oil. I will void any warranty I put on my custom rifles if any product with PTFE in it is used in the bore.

TW-25 is another great lube and conditioner.

I have used all of these and really they all work great, with the exception of WD. wich is once again possibly the absolute worse thing to put on a gun that is said to be a lube.

Greases;
The brownell action magic is a very good one and I still use it on certain things.
One of the best all purpouse greases I ahve ever used on a firearm is STOS. It is big with the Trap shooters for ue on the hinges or thier O/U shotguns. It is very good.

i ahve also messed with many different bore lubes, even did testing on new ones that a company was trying come up with that would increase accuracy and velocity for real.

The only thing I can say after extensive testing and rounds down range is that none really work in the bore. Some work for a little while with increased velocity, but the increase was not worth the effort. Others actaully decreased velocity. None actaully raised accuracy over a barrel of the same make and accuracy potential with no bore lube at all.
Barrel life may or may not have increased, since even a thousand rounds in a 308 will not tell you much even with a borescope.

I would like to test FP-10 against TW-25 in an extended test in a CAR-15. The test would run 1500 round each with one aplication applied per the companies guidelines before testing.
The test would be done for function, wear, and ease of cleaning after the test.

Celt

[Romulus]

Celt, what's STOS grease?

[Celt]

Here ya go.
http://www.reloaders.com/acc_lubes.html

Celt

[Romulus]

mucho obligado

[Firepower]

1 Your company name raises a red flag.

Muscle Products Corporation is indicitive to our slogan "Putting the Strength In Lubrication". Our flag is not red...it is RED, WHITE, and BLUE.

2 Your product is not used by the military my research found.

Your research is both inadequate and incorrect.
http://www.dscr.dla.mil/products/epa/n10.htm
http://www.fp10.com/adjutantgeneral.html
I could provide much more, but why bother...

3 I releaize your company is loosing a lot of sales to your competer.

(I love this one) Quite to the contrary in all cases, but you fail to mention which competer(sic) you refer to. I'll go out on a limb here and assume you must mean Militec. Now if that is whom you mean, then here are the proper stats; in 2001 we converted 70% of the M-1 distributors to MPC Products...why?...simply because they perform better, and are a much more realistically affordable price, along with the fact that we offer over 14 different "specifically designed products" to do the jobs they do...not just a "1-product panacea" that works on everything. Sorry...no such animal.

4 I was not picking on your product ,just showing a much better product.

Seems to me, I never even mentioned my product in my post...only the one "YOU" mentioned, outside of the reference to the "Rusty Nail Test"...and there I only mentioned BF.

5 Militec backed backed up my post by email.

What What does that mean?...outside of the obvious fact that Brad and Allan are soliciting folks like you to come on the forums and post garbage as you did. Too bad they don't have the where-withall to come on and post themselves.

6 They are not stupid enough to back it up in writing
which would leave them open to a law suit.

You are exactly right. Give written advice (as you did) that may result in a lawsuit due to liability and negligence, will get you just that....a fat lawsuit. HOWEVER, if you give sound, proven, and responsible advice, you are revered in your field, as you then demonstrate true professionalism and concern for the end user. I'll wager you even promote the "drain your oil out of your crankcase and run your car" after adding your "favorite" additive package (what was that stuff again?).

7 If people do a through research on both products
You will loose more business.

Now there is a statement that just tickles me to no end. Word is, my friend, that Brad's company is on the way out and nearly broke. Unless YOU are in the industry itself, you wouldn't know this, but if you ARE (in the industry) then I believe your name is really Brad Giordanni or Alan Roth...kind of suspect it anyhow, Mr. "E".

8 When peoply loose their cool and get irate they loose
their ability to think clearly as you have and I suppect
you are going to have some problems with your boss.

Now, this one is an enigma. Seems like you are loosing your cool, not me as I put forth the facts and figures. You just spout nebulous innuendoes and references without any foundation whatsoever. And if my Boss gets tight with me, well, I can always deal with me ( as one of my first requirements of me is to be professional when dealing with idiots as well as good folks, like most I've found on the forums, until now (even Tribologist and drcohen are a significant "cut" above your purely mercenary and rediculous "lubri-babble".)) Based on this statement alone, you would be a candidate for some therapy based on a "Projectionist" type behavior...but then again, I'll leave the psych to the shrinks.

9 Let the peoply do their own through research and make their own decision.

Now you're talking!! That's what the FP-10 Challenge has been all about (and continues to be). I welcome the person who want's to test it against Militec-1 with GREAT enthusiasm..as I have a convert as if it were BreakFree (which is a hands down loss to FP-10).

10 People who loose their logical thinking quickly shoud not be playing around with chemicals.

I agree wholeheartedly, and pray you do not.

11 Educaion and a degree do not create an intelligence person.

Right again. Intelligence is inherint to humans. How we develop it is inherint to education and life's learnings, which bring us to wisdom and better living. Common sense is essential, but writing the book on halogenation techniques took a little more than just that, for me. I recommend you picking up "Martha Stewart's Book of Social Ettiquette" to start with. This may require a bit more in-depth reading that you may be accustomed to, but I'm sure you could find it on audio cassette.

12 I hope your company developes a product that ups every body else. then I will do my research and praise it.

Been there, Done that

14 I wish you the best but feel sorry for you.

I really don't know (honestly) why?...anyone else, please feel free to comment on this one too!! Thanks, for the best though, but I already have it....it's called "Firepower FP-10 CLP".

15 I am afraid I am going to see a rigged test in your reply.

No worries. My test will be repeatable by all and the results, good or bad, will be published as they occur. Don't worry "E", I won't do a "don't try this at home" test...in fact, I'll be following your instructions all the way

16 Militec has already addressed the CLP type products.

Wrong address, if referring to "Firepower FP-10 CLP". Try 112 Fennell Drive, Butler, PA 16002
BTW, there is a "goat here"...is he your's?

Rule#1: Never bring a KNIFE to a Gunfight ( and your's needs a whole lot of sharpening)
Rule#2: Always do your home-work
Rule#3: If you do, (your homework) and you're coming after me...bring a body-bag. YOU'LL need it.

Stay tuned....test is about to start!


Regards,
George

PS...Hey CELT (Dia dhuit, mo chara). Email me your address and I'll see to it that you get that FP-10 for the test you want to do (bigger bottle too).

[Celt]

George,
go rahb maith agat!

You have mail.

For all eyes on this thread;
The test I run will a truely non bias one.
I really want to know first hand wich of the two (TW-25 or FP-10)
I have used both and both are tops. I currently use TW-25 because a buddy gave me some and it works great.

Whatever product comes out on top in my tests will be the one I use and give small amounts to my customers with thier custom rifles I build. I will also carry and promote the one I choose.

The test will take about 3 months since ammo is not free and the sitting time without cleaning between firings will be another factor for testing.

I will post my results as soon as I finish the 1500 rounds for each product.

The same ammo will be used and only one aplication of the product will be done after thorough cleaning before the first round is fired.

Celt

[Clayton Hufford]

Celt, I am glad to hear that you'll be testing FP-10 CLP. I look forward to your future comments!

FWIW, I have tested virtually every lube and CLP-type product on the market since 1997. I compared ASTM test data and conducted my own, albeit non-scientific, corrosion, functional reliability, and wear tests. Nothing even comes close to the performance of FP-10 CLP.

I personally found TW-25B and MC2500 to be very good lubricants, but not too good at preventing corrosion, and contrary to popular belief, you still need to clean your gun. Nothing takes the place of preventative maintenance.

I found Militec-1 to be an absolutely lousy protectant, and again, you still need a cleaner. I have since discovered that Militec-1 is simply a lubricant ADDITIVE, and by itself it can actually be harmful to your weapons. The Militec-1 that you put in your engine is the same stuff that you put on your guns - that's dumb. Guns and cars are totally different in their requirements, IMHO.

FP-10 CLP is complete, so to speak, not just an additive or a "conditioner", nor is it a do-all wonder product, but a product designed FOR weapons from the start.

Just my thoughts,
Clayton

[tonyz]

I have used CLP as my overall Gun Lubricant for many years. Lately I also have also been using Tetra Gun Grease and Tetra Gun Lubricant. I have been totaly satisfied with all of these products.

Tony


Tetra

[Celt]

I fully understand that there is no substitute for cleaning and care of your gun.
I do however feel that with products as good as the ones being tested it is vital to do the extended no cleaning test, as I feel this will be the only real deciding factor. Wich one keeps working in harsh combat like conditions.
I specialize in SWS rifles and some may be used in harsh life and death situations. I want the very best.

Celt

[Clayton Hufford]

Celt, I agree 100%. My cleaning comment was in reference to the marketing hype by Militec and others who think that their products will actually take the place of regular cleaning. Indeed many of these products help make cleaning easier compared to average gun oil, but they don't make a gun "self cleaning", IMHO.

I prefer CLP-type products as they've always worked best for me. They save time, money, and space. Contrary to popular belief, many CLP's outperform single purpose specialty products. When Break-Free CLP first came out, it was loads better than just about every gun oil out there, as well as protectants like Sheath and cleaners like Hoppes #9. FP-10 CLP is about five times better than Break-Free CLP in terms of lubrication, per ASTM results, and is also a better cleaner and protectant now that it has been improved and meets current mil-specs. Long term wise, FP-10 is much better as it contains no solids which can harden and gum up, especially in storage conditions.

Regards,
Clay

[Romulus]

Clay, no offense intended...

But up until Firepower showed up, which wasn't so long ago, and unless I am mistaken, you were singing the praises of Break-Free. I would just like to know when you were won over to FP-10 and based on what empirical evidence...

No ulterior motives to my question, in fact I am still awaiting after almost two months the promised info from Mr. Yoder at Armor Holdings about BF CLP and how it stacks up to FP-10. It's just that I notice a rather sudden change of heart on your part and am wondering ...due to what revelation?

[WESHOOT2]

Did I miss the window?

[Clayton Hufford]

Romulus:

I really started seriously testing FP-10 about a year ago. I bought a large bottle from CJ Distributing. I tried FP-10 on every weapon I could get my hands on, and used it during training courses. I always knew, from reviewing the ASTM test data, that FP-10 was a better lubricant, compared to Break-Free CLP, or just about any other lube out there. However, I really "grew up" on Break-Free CLP, having used it since I was a kid, and having used it in the Army. I trusted it, even though it wasn't the best lube. It cleaned and protected better than most every product available.

Break-Free CLP changed its formula several times, and changed hands as well, going to Armor Holdings. IMHO none of this was a good thing. It took me a while to realize this.

Just recently FP-10 CLP was improved greatly in order to meet new mil-specifications. The new formula puts it well above any product I have ever used. FP-10 CLP was actually designed from the get-go to be used on firearms, and was improved to be the best.

I have spoken with George at MPC several times in the last few months, and learned ALOT about FP-10 and the lube industry in general. The level of customer service and support at MPC is far above anything I've ever experienced. When I call MPC, I get to speak with the guy that develops the stuff. To me, this means alot. I prefer to support companies that aren't afraid to tell me about their product, and to tell the truth.

In short, Break-Free CLP is good, compared to products like Rem-Oil, WD-40, etc. but it cannot compare to the new FP-10 CLP. As you've discovered, the customer service at BF has went downhill since Dwight Woodruff was replaced. I still have a ton of tech info that Dwight sent me a few years ago. Great guy.

FWIW, I am not employed by or related to anyone at MPC. I support MPC because they make the best gun (and auto) care products on the market, IMHO.

www.fp10.com

www.mpc-home.com

Hope this helps,
Clay

[Romulus]

Thanks, Clay.

I sent an e-mail to BF and got an answer from Don Yoder. It was actually nice to hear from the top man himself (I understand he is the original formulator of BF, including it's latest improved version.) He told me that he knew nothing about FP-10, but if FP-10 obtained its mil-spec classification it would deserve it, as many have gone for it but never received it. He also added that the BF marketing dept. based in Florida would contact me and give me more info on BF and how it might stack against FP-10.

To date, not a peep from the Florida folks, It's been at least two months...

[S.F.S]

According to George the only difference between the new Mil-spec formula and the old stuff is the droppng point, the old stuff was -54 F and the new stuff is -65 F. eveything else is the same.

So basically I would never be able to tell the difference in the 2 cause I wont be shooting when its that damn cold

I also see that Shooters Choice has the new Mil-Spec formula on the shelfs in a gun shop near me.

Scott

[JohnKirk]

I'll agree with George on the WD-40. I have had a Model 69A Win. since before, well, a long durn time. Back in the good old days, I would slather it with 3-in-one oil. Years later, I wondered why the firing pin dropping took about two seconds. I used WD-40 on the gun, and thought the WD was gumming up all over that rifle. It turns out WD was only DISSOLVING all my mistakes at lubing. After further use, I decided it was good for displacing H20, and great at getting tar off my Grand Cherokee.

My 69A has since been properly cleaned and lubed with CLP. The firing pin drops in a mili-second. I am looking forward to receiving George's sample to try also. Heard good things about it. Will try it on my many Glocks few lube points.

By the way, CLP does NOT gum up. Period.