5K for rifle, how to proceed

[stubbicatt]

For $5k you can build a really nice custom rifle.

Say, BAT 3 lug action, Brux barrel, Jewell trigger, nice custom stock of your choosing, and still have enough left over for a really nice scope.

[Road_Clam]

A .308 will get you to 1k but I recommend a min 24" bbl, 26" even better . You will need a 168- 175 gr bullet traveling at about a minimum 2600 fps to avoid possibly going transonic. When I shot 1k at Sig a few shooters were under barreled and shot good till about 750 yds. At 1k a few of the 18 and 20" "tatical" bbl guys were going transonic and getting unpredictable accuracy.

[agtman]

I'm all for cool high-end rifles, but re-read my above post about how my Tikka's stacking up so far. A premium rifle may (or may not) do better at serious LR shooting, but there are likely several good production rifles that'd be fine for getting started, and for that purpose, there's nothing "second rate" about them.

Dude ... seriously?

Look, I'm sure your Tikka's a great shooting rifle at the club, but the production-line models built by the factory rats simply can't compete with the custom builds for accuracy when the serious L.R. shooting starts (i.e., at or over 800 yds). By the way, the 'smiths at GAP who build these sticks also compete with them.

Check out any of the L.R. Matches and "Sniper" comps out west where they're shooting over 1000-yds, and see who's winning with what builds.

Think about it ... There's a reason GAP rifles don't shoot like Savages, Rugers or Tikkas. And that's why GAPs command premium prices, why the wait-times are so long, and why they get snatched up so fast when they're available - new or used!

Since the OP stated he's got $5K to drop, he might as well drop it on the best he can get, which ain't gonna be production line.

[agtman]

A .308 will get you to 1k but I recommend a min 24" bbl, 26" even better . You will need a 168- 175 gr bullet traveling at about a minimum 2600 fps to avoid possibly going transonic.

Agree on barrel length. For the serious L.R. stuff, go with 26" and load the 168s (or heavier) premium match slugs. I like Hornady's 178gn Match BTHPs (sku# 30715).

When I shot 1k at Sig a few shooters were under barreled and shot good till about 750 yds. At 1k a few of the 18 and 20" "tatical" bbl guys were going transonic and getting unpredictable accuracy.

L.R. rookies, no doubt.

A 20" tube might be *okay* to 800yds max, but the velocity lost contributes to imprecision, notwithstanding the impact of shooter-induced errors beyond 800yds, and you'll see shot-groups open up markedly compared, say, to what you shot back at 500yds (the old-school rifleman's quarter mile).

The longer tube allows you to keep your placement tighter the farther out you go. That level of precision is what the L.R. honchos mean when they talk about "aim small, miss small."

That said, ... there are a lot of "Sunday afternoon snipers" - guy only looking to shoot, maybe, 20-30 rounds off the bench at the club - who don't care about these sorts of details.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by agtman

Dude ... seriously?

You're cherry picking. First, right after the part you added the emphasis to, I wrote:

Originally Posted by MrBorland

there are likely several good production rifles that'd be fine for getting started

Also, I didn't see any mention by the OP about "L.R. Matches and "Sniper" comps", so I don't see the need to push them towards that gear right up front. They simply said they wanted to shoot to 1,000 yards, and there's likely a number of good production rifles able to do that. I've not suggested these'll hang with a top custom LR rig in a formal PRS match, which is what you seem to be reading into my posts. But the OP may, in fact, just want to shoot 20-30 rounds from the bench and doesn't "care about these sorts of details" (it'd help if the OP chimed in with a clarification, btw).

Sure, they can drop $5k on a custom rig - as I said, I've nothing against them (did you notice I actually have one?) - but it's a choice they'll make based on their needs and after getting input on what all their options are.

[kilimanjaro]

Get yourself a nice Mosin-Nagant for $200, take it to a gunsmith and have the muzzle cut off an inch and recrowned, the bolt turned down, the stock replaced entirely, throw the magazine away, and have a fixed scope mounted. You'll have a good single-shot 1000 yard rifle for about $2500.

Spend another grand on a good reloading setup, you'll need to tune your loads.

Put the rest of your budget back in the bank.

If you don't like the idea of a Mosin, get a Mauser or Springfield deer rifle and do the same thing.

[kcub]

Could a 243 work?

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by Road_Clam

A .308 will get you to 1k but I recommend a min 24" bbl, 26" even better . You will need a 168- 175 gr bullet traveling at about a minimum 2600 fps to avoid possibly going transonic. When I shot 1k at Sig a few shooters were under barreled and shot good till about 750 yds. At 1k a few of the 18 and 20" "tatical" bbl guys were going transonic and getting unpredictable accuracy.

Even with a 24-26" barrel there are no guarantees you'll stay supersonic at 1000 with the bullets you mentioned. At sea level your subsonic by 900 yards with the speed you listed and the bullet weights. Move to 4000 ft ASL and you're supersonic past 1000 yards with the .308 from even the 20" barrel. However just because your bullet goes transonic before 1000 yards doesn't mean the shot can't be accurate, as some bullet designs handle the transition from super to subsonic better than others.

Originally Posted by agtman

L.R. rookies, no doubt.

A 20" tube might be *okay* to 800yds max, but the velocity lost contributes to imprecision, notwithstanding other shooter-induced errors, and your shot-groups will open up markedly compared, say, to what you shot back at 500yds (the old-school rifleman's quarter mile).

The longer tube allows you to keep your placement tighter the farther out you go. That level of precision is what the L.R. honchos mean when they talk about "aim small, miss small."

That said, ... there are a lot of "Sunday afternoon snipers" - guy only looking to shoot, maybe, 20-30 rounds off the bench at the club - who don't care about these sorts of details.

Velocity loss has nothing to do with how much precision a rifle is capable of. Often times you don't even lose 20 fps per inch of difference between 20-26" barrels. Velocity does help with wind as it shortens the time of flight to target giving wind less time to act upon the bullet. So if there is around 100 fps difference at the muzzle between a 20" vs. 26" you have a TOF difference at 1000 yards of .084 seconds and a difference 1 MOA value of windage.

Longer barrels don't allow bullets groups to be any tighter. The only time it might is when using aperture sights, where a longer sight radius helps with precision. When it comes down to using optics often times the shorter barrel proves to be the more accurate barrel.

How much more accurate is a $3000-5000 custom with a .5 MOA guarantee going to be at 1000 yards vs. a sub $1000 Tikka with a MOA guarantee? On average it'll be about 4% more accurate if all things else are equal. This is according to Precision Rifle Blog and the Brian Litz designed "Weapon Employment Zone" (WEZ) analisys tool. Now and extra 4% can mean a lot in organized competition, but it isn't worth the money until you're competing.

Originally Posted by kcub

Could a 243 work

Yes a .243 Win could definitely work. However, there are some issues as there isn't a factory rifle produced yet with the proper twist to run good long range bullets 100% of the time. Where I live the factory Remington and Savage 1:9 twist barrels will generally allow you to shoot the 105 grain A-Max and BTHP from Hornady year around. However, when you get to sea level and cold fall and winter temperatures that increase atmospheric density you could very well run into problems where the Hornady bullets won't stabilize.

If you want to do a LR .243 your rifle needs a 1:8 or faster twist to take advantage of quality LR bullets made for the 6mm/.243 caliber rifles. Some other good LR 6mm cartridges are the 6XC, 6mm Dasher, 6mm Creedmoor, 6mm SLR, 6mm BR, and 6mm Competition Match, all of which are supposed to give you longer barrel life vs. the .243 Win. Though none of these fit into the OP wanting a factory ammunition option except the .243, which has very limited factory loads with good long range bullets.

[Nathan]

I really do stand by the savage 12 action and trigger. You get a lot from them. I have a .6" @100yd 300WSM. My buddy's is a .4"@100 308 win.

I too like a BAT, Jewell, Kreiger, chassis rifle. That is like a $3500 +gun finished out. Scope ?? Extras?? Rest?? Reloading??

That ends up closer to $7000, the way I see it.

[4runnerman]

agtman- I am in central USA. Never heard of your barrel man?. Most here shoot Bat Actions or Remmy's. I shoot stock Savage Target Trigger on a 6MMBR. Never had a issue at 600, 800 or 1000 yards. Keep in mind action is only a small fraction of the shot. The Barrel is the main and most important part of the whole set up. I just rebarreled mine with a Pac or super match barrel. shot a 198 and a 199- 11X in the match. Beat lots of those Custom manufactuers as did many others. Your $5000.00 rig is nice to look at, but don't shoot any better then a stock Savage with a good barrel on it, or a Remmy action with a good barrel, ect, ect.

[Madball6]

OP here, chiming in as MrBorland requested! I have no immediate intention of any competitive shooting at the moment, just really enjoyed tossing lead that far. I would, however like to go with something that could be competitive if it's in my price range, so If I do decide to go that route I don't need to start back over from scratch. I'm not looking for a cheaper build that will be "good enough" I'm not stretching my budget spending 5k, I can comfortably spend to that limit and get the most out of it. So for those suggesting cheaper options, lets put the floor at 4k. I'd also like to attend a LR shooting school sometime in the next year or so, but thats not necessarily relevant to this thread.


-Madball

[4runnerman]

Madball- I think what you are saying is what everyone here but one person is trying to tell you. You don't need a 5000 or even a 4000 rifle to shoot that far.
What you will need is a great scope. You can not use hold over at 600 yards. If the scope don't track right you are done right there. I am a Savage fan so it is all I know, but there are many others out there that shoot great too. A good Savage or remmy action, F Class stock and a good barrel and scope is all you need.
Hand loading is a must. Nothing beats practice and sending lead down range.

[agtman]

* * * I'm not looking for a cheaper build that will be "good enough" I'm not stretching my budget spending 5k, I can comfortably spend to that limit and get the most out of it. So for those suggesting cheaper options, lets put the floor at 4k. * * *

Good. Don't go cheap. Too many "Sunday afternoon snipers" on this thread counselling otherwise.

Take your time and look around. See what options the custom makers offer in your price range ... You can always default to one of the factory-rat builds previously mentioned, if you have to ....

I'd also like to attend a LR shooting school sometime in the next year or so, but that's not necessarily relevant to this thread.

Several good schools come to mind, but for great L.R. training check out the precision courses offered by Rifles Only.

[precision_shooter]

$5k for a 1,000 yard rifle?

Savage 12 Long Range Precision in 6.5 Creedmoor. $1k
Vortex Viper PST or Razor scope. $1-2k
Harris of atlas bipod. $100-$300
Spend the rest on ammo or components and trigger time. $thats a lot of ammo and trigger time...

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by agtman

Good. Don't go cheap. Too many "Sunday afternoon snipers" on this thread counselling otherwise.

Nobody has suggested the OP go cheap. However I'd like to know how you would personally build the OP's rifle if given his $5000 budget? Using a GAP rifle of your choice in a common factory cartridge, but you must include optics, scope base, scope rings, and bipod. Remember as well he's wanting to punch holes in paper not just banging steel at 1000 yards so he's going to need a scope similar to what those "L.R. Matches and "Sniper" comps out west" guys are using.


I want to see how good your armchair quarterbacking is, especially since you've taken it on yourself to critique everyone else without offering an alternative.

[4runnerman]

I also would like to know what Sunday afternoon snipers are?. Most matches I go to are on Saturday's

[Txhillbilly]

A $5000 budget can get you a great set-up. You can go several directions with this.
1. Buy a full custom built precision rifle,and wait for it to get built. That will eat up a good chunk of your budget,so you might have to spend less on optics.

2. Buy a good production rifle,and then upgrade the barrel,stock,trigger,etc.. Then top it with with whatever optics you want.

3.Buy an Action,and build the complete rifle yourself if you have the mechanical ability and knowledge. This is what I prefer to do.

I've become pretty partial to the 6.5mm cartridges in the last several years. I bought a 260 Remington AR,and built a 6.5 Creedmoor & 6.5-06 bolt action rifles.My 308,30-06 & 300 WM don't see much range time anymore.

[johnwilliamson062]

Aren't thing like stock fit and type somewhat personal taste? I can't imagine dropping $5000 on a custom rifle for my first purchase. I would want to buy something less expensive and upgrade it as I figured out what I liked.
In attending shooting events I've noticed people tend to be not that willing to let someone who shows up empty handed handle their weapons. If you show up with something on the low end and show you know how to handle it, some will let you handle or even take a few shots with their guns.

I'm talking about competitions and not random people at a public range of course.

[Road_Clam]

One of the best aspects of joining a gun club is the warm fellowship you gain between shooters. I've been asked to try probably 20 different firearms over the past 2 years, most all of my shooting buddies weather it be a $200 Mosin 91/30 or a $7000 GAP are always willing and even offer to let you try their sticks. This was how I came to choose my Bell & Carelson A5 stock , i was able to try one from a buddy. Then after that I had no problem dropping $450 on a stock knowing it was exactly what I wanted. This is also how I came to shoot my first Barrett 50 cal was through a club member. A 50 cal is one of those guns that you can't wait to try for the first time , then you immediately give it back and say "nope , never gonna' own one off these cannons" LOL

[Nathan]

Aren't thing like stock fit and type somewhat personal taste? I can't imagine dropping $5000 on a custom rifle for my first purchase. I would want to buy something less expensive and upgrade it as I figured out what I liked.

Well, not sure if you have to upgrade. A custom gun is a serious of questions. If you know your answers, you are ready. If not, maybe you should struggle some with less than perfect. Then you will know what you want,

[kraigwy]

Most accurate rifle I had cost me $501. Got it from the CMP Auction Site.

Its a Model 70 Target Rifle build by the Army Marksmanship Unit. It was listed as missing parts. It was, it was missing two screws which I had.

Its in 308 Win.

My intention was to build a 260 or 6.5 CM. That idea changed when I started shooting it.

Yeah its 308, but I've been shooting 308s a long time in High Power and my best 1000 yards scores were with the 308 in my Super Match M1A, so I can live with the 308.

The rifle has a clip guide and scope mount. So I can use it in HP or Precision Rifle matches.

$5000 - 500 leaves me 4500 for ammo to learn to shoot this rifle. A can buy a heck of a lot of reloading components for$4500.

Shot a Precision Rifle Match earlier this month. Screwed up three stages because I was a whole revolution off on the scope elev. knob. Other then that the rifle shot great.

Its not how much you pay. Its not the hardware, (rifle/scope, etc.) its the soft ware, the shooter, learning to adjust for environmental conditions.

I will admit, in the above mentioned PR match I cheated. I used the G7 range finder. I ranged the target and it told me how much to come up for each target, it automatically adjusted for Temp, Alt, Humidity, Angle, and wind (after I determined the wind speed and direction.

If I was going to spend $5 Grand on a rifle, a huge majority of that money would be spent on ammo components and bullets down range.

However, if you just want to spend the money for a truly custom rifle, by all means go for it. I have a lot of nice rifles.

But if you are only concerned about a shooter. Concentrate on ammo down range learning how to shoot it instead of just spending money on a rifle.

[Wendyj]

I'm with mcborland. The Tikka CTR in 260 I have topped of with a 6.5x20 Vortex viper and we shoot at a 1000 all the time. About 1/2 of the $5 grand you are wanting to spend and you can still get better optics than I have on this one.

[Madball6]

Has anyone here used Short Action Customs to build a rifle?



-Madball

[5RWill]

I'll chime in. As someone who has dumped 2500$ into a factory remington setup and about to drop 2300$ on a Custom GAP Tempest barreled action, i'd say i've been where the OP is.

To answer up front about SAC, Madball they're good to go. Mark does phenomenal work. I wouldn't hesitate with going with him. Matter of fact, Mark at SAC, George at GAP, Chad at LRI, Robert at Gradous, Greg at southern precision, Mike at Tac Ops, and Terry Cross at KMW all make phenomenal rifles.

Seems you are wanting a practical/tactical type rig? Or a benchrest rig?

Either way here we go.

Caliber
If you reload i suggest 6.5x47 Lapua first, 6.5 Creedmoor second, and .260 lastly. Nothing personal against the .260 it's actually the only one i own at the moment. The crux of it is the 6.5x47 can be pushed to similar results as the .260 and 6.5CM while burning 5gr less powder and the brass lasting much longer. Also the 6.5x47L is apparently fool proof to load for as it hammers in the accuracy department. Case design is very strong, and can handle decent pressure. Downside is that Lapua is the only supplier of brass and it's currently 113$/100. Also it uses a small rifle primer and some firing pins need to bushed to keep them from piercing or cratering primers.

6.5CM is the .260 done right IMHO. The longer neck and less steep shoulder angle allows seating the long 140s to mag length without seriously taking up powder capacity. Also factory ammo is readily available with 6.5CM it's not too hard to come by. Cons are if reloading, brass is narrowed to Hornady or Norma/Nosler of which the latter two are very high priced at 1.40$ a piece. It's to note Nosler/Norma does make exceptional brass. It's to note i say norma/nosler because i do know norma does manufacture some nosler brass for sure.

.260 while suffering from seating the long 140s to mag lengh and taking up powder capacities does have a good brass selection. Lapua, nosler, norma on the expensive side and Remington on the cheap side.

Ballistically they're all pretty much equal with the 6.5x47L falling slightly and i mean just slightly behind them. All of these cartridges will do the job and do it very well.

The Action
There are the remington 700 clones Defiance, Stiller, Surgeon, etc. That all roughly are machined one piece, integral lug, integral rail, one piece bolt, side bolt release, m16 extractor, fluted bolt, bolt knobs, etc. Prices can range from 950ish to 1400$. Most of the actions you see like SAC's proprietary, GAPs (minus the tempest), Gradous, Rbros, KMW, all have Defiance build them actions to their specs. Which speaks volumes about Defiance. Stiller does the same with some gun smiths as well as having won the Crane contract for the MK13. So they directly support our snipers with their TAC300 action, speaks for them as well. Surgeon has been in the game for a while as well though i don't have any provided examples like i do for the others. Though plenty of smiths use their actions GAP and KMW come to mind. I think it's become more difficult since they sold out.

There are the three lug actions, BAT, GAP tempest, and Badger M2013. Which besides the obvious 60 degree bolt lift and three locking lugs the differences aren't just inherently noticeable. The Tempest and m2013 use a removable breech ring, i'm not sure about the BAT. Associated downsides with three lug actions are cocking. Recocking the action after a fired shot is usually tough. I know there were many complaints of the m2008, i don't or can't really find much on the m2013. In the Tempest however this issue has been addressed, if you google it it will show George lifting the action with a finger.

Then there is the latest and greatest Mausingfield developed by Ted Karagias from American Rifle Company. Which is probably the most innovation or refinement rather bolt actions have seen in a long time. Ted took the Mauser 98 action and built upon it. It's very different from the others. It has control round feed, mauser claw extractor, springfield ejector, Toroidal locking lugs, tapered key rail mount, and from what i can tell it's smooth as silk. Also love the way the extractor rotates with the round so it doesn't shave into the rim of the brass. I will own one eventually. Only issue is they're 1600$. So a bit pricey at the moment.

There is always a Tikka which will save you some money as the don't have to be trued, come with a side bolt release, sako extractor, and a good trigger. All potential upgrades you'd do to a 700. Though the recoil lug needs to be replaced IMO as well as the bolt shroud. So that's some added expense. Downsides are you can't buy the action direct, they come in long action only, and Tikka is about to stop production of the T3. The way they use the actions for short action cartridges is a longer bolt stop to shorten the length of travel when cycling the bolt. If you can find a good deal on one say 425$ it's not a bad route to go. Tikkas also have a 70 degree bolt lift. Not quite 60 but not 90 like the 700/clones.

Then there is remington. Which you can use. All that really needs to be done is truing and then barrel it. 95% of people can't shoot the difference between a properly barreled 700 and a custom. Having said that some of the upgrades are desirable and resale value sucks for remingtons. Though you can get a blueprinted/trued one from PTG for about 550$

Barrel
Pick which ever you can find in stock, as long as the proper smith installs it you'll be fine.
Bartlein
Krieger
Rock Creek
Obermeyer
Broughton
Brux
Hart
Hawk Hill
etc. the list goes on.

Stock/Chassis
I went with a McMillan A5 for my build, nonadjustable ran me 700-750ish, 300$ bedding job, 400$ inlet job, so it came out pretty expensive. Manners the other big player in the stocks has a minichassis that you can use that comes with DBM that will save you money.

Chassis' which are what i'm going with on my Tempest build (specifically KRG Whiskey 3) are a little cheaper.
KRG
McCree
XLR
All make quality adjustable chassis'.

Optics
This is where i will differ some. I understand wanting to go with some great glass to start off. I started with a USO SN-3 and i do love it. Recently owned a Leupold mark 6, which i traded for a Bushnell ERS. I also own a Razor Gen II FWIW. I will say for the money the Bushnell HDMR, ERS, or XRS are hard to beat. The glass is very very clear, feature rich just like most 2000+ scopes, and from what i have seen they're dead on when it comes to tracking. Something i couldn't say for my 1700$ Mark 6. Which coincidentally was 6/10ths of a mil off at 10 mils at 100yds. Having owned and currently owning some premium glass i will say the ERS isn't really short coming at all. Don't get me wrong it isn't 2500$ glass but it is clearer than my Mark 4 M2 on my MK12. There is also the added fact that the used market is ridiculous for these scopes. You can get an ERS at 1050-1300$ on the used classfields at Snipershide. Second recommendation would be a vortex Gen I Razor, while they don't make them anymore Vortex has the best warranty in the business. You can find them used for 1300ish.

If you have any more questions feel free to pm me. Also here is a good read on getting started into LR shooting.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/pract...ing-equipment/

This is just kinda thought poured out on post, i'm definitely missing things here and there so i apologize in advance. It's late and i'm tired.

[taylorce1]

The real question is do you want to be shooting or do you want to be waiting? I'm not against going the full custom route, but you'll be waiting and not shooting unless you find a custom builder that happens to have a "ready to ship rifle" sitting on his shelf. Another thing is you're new to long range shooting and haven't figured out what works for you yet. Until you figure out what works for you, how do you know what you want in a custom rifle?

I just think that the faster you get to shooting the faster you get to learning. That's why I'm firmly in the camp buy a production rifle, put a good scope on it, buy a case of ammunition and hit the range. When you shoot up that case of ammunition buy another and keep shooting. When you shoot the barrel out on your production rifle you'll know what you want and that is when you go full on custom, or retube what has been working and keep putting lead down range.