always amazed at the stupidity.

SaxonPig · May 20, 2015, 07:14 AM

Saw a shopping mall with the no guns allowed sign. I always want to find someone in charge and ask three questions. Are you really stupid enough to think that sign will stop criminals? Are yo really stupid enough to think that sign is needed for lawful citizens? Are you really stupid enough to not lawfully armed citizens ready to deal with a crimals?

Wishoot · May 20, 2015, 07:19 AM

Most malls are managed by big corporations and they dictate these stupid rules, not the local general manager.

Having worked for big corporations for a big chunk of my life, I can say with authority that making stupid decisions is business as usual for big corporations.

tirod · May 20, 2015, 08:23 AM

Not to forget the insurance industry mandating the signs to keep them from being sued. That's the major point of them - liability.

It's not our laws restricting our rights as much as our employers and the insurers disarming us on their property. And the Constitutional arguments are difficult to assess.

You have every right to keep others off your property if they are bearing arms and you don't want them to. Farmers and ranchers deal with this all the time. Even their neighbors can be a nuisance.

If they can post no hunting, the mall can post no guns. It's respecting their property rights, too.

Unless we strip commercial property owners of their rights, just to enforce our safety. That is going to be a long running debate, it's been going on for decades already.

rickyrick · May 20, 2015, 08:44 AM

Yes, it's just as much a private property's right to restrict things.

Just because it's a public mall does not restrict private property rights.

Some people are actually uncomfortable with a bumbling clumsy fool with a loaded gun running around. That's their right. They have a right to their perception, just like you have a right to think their sign is stupid.

Skans · May 20, 2015, 10:34 AM

The question is, if someone carries a concealed gun into a mall where it is posted "no firearms" (and are somehow caught) - will they just be asked to leave, or is there a criminal penalty?

BarryLee · May 20, 2015, 10:42 AM

Quote:

will they just be asked to leave, or is there a criminal penalty?

Depends on State law. In Georgia they would just be asked to leave and if they refuse it could be a trespassing issue.

rickyrick · May 20, 2015, 11:05 AM

My question is, if your concealed gun is concealed, why worry about it. Only those places in which you could face a penalty would I worry about it.

Check you local laws, some places the signs carry the weight of the law, some don't.
Some it's a minor offense like a traffic ticket.

You should follow the wishes of management.

If a mall has no guns allowed sign, I move on.

zincwarrior · May 20, 2015, 12:28 PM

Neither the wife nor I would go into a mall with a valid 30.06 sign (texas requires very specific signage to be legally effective). If they had an invalid sign I'd take their intent that they don't want my money.

rickyrick · May 20, 2015, 01:17 PM

I like the 30.06 and 51% signs in Texas.
It leaves the guesswork out of it

manta49 · May 20, 2015, 01:33 PM

If people don't want firearms on their property, then I would respect that or go elsewhere. If People want others to respect their right to carry a firearm, then they should respect someone's wishes if they don't want firearms on their property.

Glenn E. Meyer · May 20, 2015, 02:11 PM

This is a very old debate of property rights vs. the right of self-defense. We've done it before.

The kicker is that if you are open for business to the general public, do you wave absolute property rights? One might search for this repeated debate here.

rickyrick · May 20, 2015, 03:59 PM

I understand that many people think guns are dangerous. I respect them.
It doesn't mean that gun owners are somehow smarter and others are less intelligent.

Most on this board would quickly admonish someone for a safety infraction. So, by default, gun people also believe that they are dangerous.

Guns by their very nature are designed to injure someone in a severe fashion.
I've been around long enough to know that the "gun is a tool" argument is coming next.

Derbel McDillet · May 20, 2015, 07:29 PM

If the business is open to the general public, IMO, it's on the same level as posting a "no blacks" or "no homosexuals" sign. Want to do business with the public? Sure, it's your property but it's our civil rights and a business that's open to the general public should not be allowed to violate our rights.

I'd like to print some stickers that say "Armed Citizen Zone, Violent Criminals Beware" and stick them over the "no guns" signs.

Pahoo · May 20, 2015, 07:47 PM

Quote:

The kicker is that if you are open for business to the general public, do you wave absolute property rights?

Business's certainly have an absolute right to post any sign they want. It matters little to me. However, I have the Natural God given right of self protection that I do not take lightly. Beside that, I have ADD and lose concentration while trying to read signs. ......

Starting out any conversation by calling the other person "Stupid" also leads to shirt conversations. ....

Be Civil and;
Be Safe !!!

rickyrick · May 20, 2015, 08:03 PM

Civil rights is not about you choosing to carry a gun.

Derbel McDillet · May 20, 2015, 08:23 PM

"The National Rifle Association is America's longest-standing civil rights organization." -- http://home.nra.org/

Moomooboo · May 20, 2015, 08:36 PM

How hard is it to just not care and shop elsewhere? Obviously the dumb one is the one making millions off of people shopping in the mall with a no guns allowed sign. What a stupid person, no wonder theyre a millionaire and im not.

rickyrick · May 20, 2015, 08:43 PM

Exactly

Evan Thomas · May 20, 2015, 08:45 PM

Quote:

If the business is open to the general public, IMO, it's on the same level as posting a "no blacks" or "no homosexuals" sign. Want to do business with the public?

Actually, no, it's not on the same level. People have no choice about the color of their skin, but a person has a choice about whether to carry a gun. I have a 1st amendment right to scream obscenities, but a business owner doesn't have to respect that right; it's his property and he gets to set the standards of conduct for people who frequent it.

The civil rights of protected classes are a separate issue; when it comes to other rights, we tend to forget that the Bill of Rights is binding on government -- period, full stop.

Ashikabi · May 21, 2015, 07:53 AM

This just got me thinking... if you can say no guns(because it's your property) then you could also deem Crocs or bras unfit to be on your property too right? I feel this would make the shopping experience much more pleasant

zincwarrior · May 21, 2015, 08:11 AM

You could indeed.

rickyrick · May 21, 2015, 08:31 AM

Yes I think you could, people might not like it, but yes you could.

Constitutional rights only put rules on what government entities can or cannot do.
Very little bearing on property owners.
You should respect property owner's and manager wishes or go elsewhere. Pretty simple. I'm not sure why people have a hard time getting this concept.

If we want to slip into a less free system, and force private entities to go against their will, well, that's just not free market at all

KyJim · May 21, 2015, 08:59 AM

Quote:

This just got me thinking... if you can say no guns(because it's your property) then you could also deem Crocs or bras unfit to be on your property too right? I feel this would make the shopping experience much more pleasant

Well, the pleasantness would be highly dependent upon the clientele.

More seriously, your post points out why a business owner can post a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" sign.

Glenn E. Meyer · May 21, 2015, 09:51 AM

There is a debate in TX whether a restaurant can ban folks in biker clothes. It was on the news just BEFORE the Waco shootout. The issue seems to have been dropped.

It's a complicated issue. One can argue you can go elsewhere. That principle fell in the protected class debate as blanket bans on race were used as instruments of segregation. The denial of service was insidious.

Now is carrying for SD an intrinsic right (as race, ethnicity) that overwhelms the prejudice of the property owners? That has not been decided.

If it is then, carry bans (except for highly techy reasons) are wrong. We do not support the property owner denying rights. If it is not, then the bans are morally legit.

Personally, I come down for the bans not being moral or legit. If you open to the public - you respect the intrinsic rights of the public.

You might say the shopper doesn't have to go to that store. But you can say that you don't have to have that business - do something else - if you don't respect basic rights.

Unlicensed Dremel · May 21, 2015, 10:34 AM

I've actually done this more than once.

Couple months ago, to manager at formerly-favorite restaurant with new idiot signs:

"Hi. I've been coming in here for many years. Now I see your sign, that you don't allow guns. Is this a corporate decision or just your store?"

"It's corporate"

"OK, well, I just want to verify that you don't want my business - is that correct? I carry a concealed gun, so therefore I'm not allowed - is it true that you don't want my business any more, even though I've been coming in here for years?"

"Yes, that's correct. But, if it's concealed, who's gonna know?"

Me: "Huh? Say what? It's YOUR sign, that says 'no guns'. It doesn't say 'no OPEN guns; concealed ok' - I'm trying to obey YOUR rules, and verifying what they are. Are you telling me to ignore your rules?"

"Well, no I guess not. But people carrying open scares the customers."

"Well, I'd like for the sign to be taken down."

"Well it's not gonna come down."

"Well, in my opinion and belief, it will either come down or you'll go out of business in this very pro-gun state. It already looks much slower in here than it used to."

"Yeah, well you may be right, down here in this state." (I sort of inferred that he was from elsewhere, of a more northerly latitude).

"Ok, I'll check back every few months to see if the sign is down. "

"OK"

There is NO WAY I'm giving one dime of my money to a business with a stupid sign, even if the mgt tells me with a wink and a nod that they don't REALLY mean it, for a 'good' customer like me carrying concealed. Screw them.

Having said that, and maybe this is a cave of principle (not sure), but there ARE some places here now that open carry is legal, which used to have no signs, but recently put up signs that say "Concealed only" with a picture of a handgun. I'm ok with these, and still give these places my business.

May 20, 2015, 07:14 AM	#1
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	always amazed at the stupidity. Saw a shopping mall with the no guns allowed sign. I always want to find someone in charge and ask three questions. Are you really stupid enough to think that sign will stop criminals? Are yo really stupid enough to think that sign is needed for lawful citizens? Are you really stupid enough to not lawfully armed citizens ready to deal with a crimals?

May 20, 2015, 08:44 AM	#4
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	Yes, it's just as much a private property's right to restrict things. Just because it's a public mall does not restrict private property rights. Some people are actually uncomfortable with a bumbling clumsy fool with a loaded gun running around. That's their right. They have a right to their perception, just like you have a right to think their sign is stupid. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

May 20, 2015, 11:05 AM	#7
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	My question is, if your concealed gun is concealed, why worry about it. Only those places in which you could face a penalty would I worry about it. Check you local laws, some places the signs carry the weight of the law, some don't. Some it's a minor offense like a traffic ticket. You should follow the wishes of management. If a mall has no guns allowed sign, I move on. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

May 20, 2015, 01:17 PM	#9
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	I like the 30.06 and 51% signs in Texas. It leaves the guesswork out of it __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

May 20, 2015, 02:11 PM	#11
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	This is a very old debate of property rights vs. the right of self-defense. We've done it before. The kicker is that if you are open for business to the general public, do you wave absolute property rights? One might search for this repeated debate here. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

May 20, 2015, 07:19 AM	#2
Wishoot Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2009 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,093	Most malls are managed by big corporations and they dictate these stupid rules, not the local general manager. Having worked for big corporations for a big chunk of my life, I can say with authority that making stupid decisions is business as usual for big corporations.

May 20, 2015, 08:23 AM	#3
tirod Junior member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Posts: 1,672	Not to forget the insurance industry mandating the signs to keep them from being sued. That's the major point of them - liability. It's not our laws restricting our rights as much as our employers and the insurers disarming us on their property. And the Constitutional arguments are difficult to assess. You have every right to keep others off your property if they are bearing arms and you don't want them to. Farmers and ranchers deal with this all the time. Even their neighbors can be a nuisance. If they can post no hunting, the mall can post no guns. It's respecting their property rights, too. Unless we strip commercial property owners of their rights, just to enforce our safety. That is going to be a long running debate, it's been going on for decades already.

May 20, 2015, 10:34 AM	#5
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	The question is, if someone carries a concealed gun into a mall where it is posted "no firearms" (and are somehow caught) - will they just be asked to leave, or is there a criminal penalty?

May 20, 2015, 12:28 PM	#8
zincwarrior Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex Posts: 2,259	Neither the wife nor I would go into a mall with a valid 30.06 sign (texas requires very specific signage to be legally effective). If they had an invalid sign I'd take their intent that they don't want my money.

May 20, 2015, 01:33 PM	#10
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 1,809	If people don't want firearms on their property, then I would respect that or go elsewhere. If People want others to respect their right to carry a firearm, then they should respect someone's wishes if they don't want firearms on their property.

May 20, 2015, 03:59 PM	#12
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	I understand that many people think guns are dangerous. I respect them. It doesn't mean that gun owners are somehow smarter and others are less intelligent. Most on this board would quickly admonish someone for a safety infraction. So, by default, gun people also believe that they are dangerous. Guns by their very nature are designed to injure someone in a severe fashion. I've been around long enough to know that the "gun is a tool" argument is coming next. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

May 20, 2015, 07:29 PM	#13
Derbel McDillet Junior member Join Date: September 6, 2013 Location: Kitsap County, Washington Posts: 316	If the business is open to the general public, IMO, it's on the same level as posting a "no blacks" or "no homosexuals" sign. Want to do business with the public? Sure, it's your property but it's our civil rights and a business that's open to the general public should not be allowed to violate our rights. I'd like to print some stickers that say "Armed Citizen Zone, Violent Criminals Beware" and stick them over the "no guns" signs.

May 20, 2015, 08:03 PM	#15
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	Civil rights is not about you choosing to carry a gun. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

May 20, 2015, 08:23 PM	#16
Derbel McDillet Junior member Join Date: September 6, 2013 Location: Kitsap County, Washington Posts: 316	"The National Rifle Association is America's longest-standing civil rights organization." -- http://home.nra.org/

May 20, 2015, 08:36 PM	#17
Moomooboo Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2014 Posts: 203	How hard is it to just not care and shop elsewhere? Obviously the dumb one is the one making millions off of people shopping in the mall with a no guns allowed sign. What a stupid person, no wonder theyre a millionaire and im not.

May 20, 2015, 08:43 PM	#18
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	Exactly __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

May 21, 2015, 07:53 AM	#20
Ashikabi Junior Member Join Date: May 18, 2015 Posts: 4	This just got me thinking... if you can say no guns(because it's your property) then you could also deem Crocs or bras unfit to be on your property too right? I feel this would make the shopping experience much more pleasant

May 21, 2015, 08:11 AM	#21
zincwarrior Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex Posts: 2,259	You could indeed.

May 21, 2015, 08:31 AM	#22
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	Yes I think you could, people might not like it, but yes you could. Constitutional rights only put rules on what government entities can or cannot do. Very little bearing on property owners. You should respect property owner's and manager wishes or go elsewhere. Pretty simple. I'm not sure why people have a hard time getting this concept. If we want to slip into a less free system, and force private entities to go against their will, well, that's just not free market at all __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

May 21, 2015, 09:51 AM	#24
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	There is a debate in TX whether a restaurant can ban folks in biker clothes. It was on the news just BEFORE the Waco shootout. The issue seems to have been dropped. It's a complicated issue. One can argue you can go elsewhere. That principle fell in the protected class debate as blanket bans on race were used as instruments of segregation. The denial of service was insidious. Now is carrying for SD an intrinsic right (as race, ethnicity) that overwhelms the prejudice of the property owners? That has not been decided. If it is then, carry bans (except for highly techy reasons) are wrong. We do not support the property owner denying rights. If it is not, then the bans are morally legit. Personally, I come down for the bans not being moral or legit. If you open to the public - you respect the intrinsic rights of the public. You might say the shopper doesn't have to go to that store. But you can say that you don't have to have that business - do something else - if you don't respect basic rights. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

May 21, 2015, 10:34 AM	#25
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	I've actually done this more than once. Couple months ago, to manager at formerly-favorite restaurant with new idiot signs: "Hi. I've been coming in here for many years. Now I see your sign, that you don't allow guns. Is this a corporate decision or just your store?" "It's corporate" "OK, well, I just want to verify that you don't want my business - is that correct? I carry a concealed gun, so therefore I'm not allowed - is it true that you don't want my business any more, even though I've been coming in here for years?" "Yes, that's correct. But, if it's concealed, who's gonna know?" Me: "Huh? Say what? It's YOUR sign, that says 'no guns'. It doesn't say 'no OPEN guns; concealed ok' - I'm trying to obey YOUR rules, and verifying what they are. Are you telling me to ignore your rules?" "Well, no I guess not. But people carrying open scares the customers." "Well, I'd like for the sign to be taken down." "Well it's not gonna come down." "Well, in my opinion and belief, it will either come down or you'll go out of business in this very pro-gun state. It already looks much slower in here than it used to." "Yeah, well you may be right, down here in this state." (I sort of inferred that he was from elsewhere, of a more northerly latitude). "Ok, I'll check back every few months to see if the sign is down. " "OK" There is NO WAY I'm giving one dime of my money to a business with a stupid sign, even if the mgt tells me with a wink and a nod that they don't REALLY mean it, for a 'good' customer like me carrying concealed. Screw them. Having said that, and maybe this is a cave of principle (not sure), but there ARE some places here now that open carry is legal, which used to have no signs, but recently put up signs that say "Concealed only" with a picture of a handgun. I'm ok with these, and still give these places my business.