New to shooting & the forum. Observations on HK, SIG, Kimber

Rick F · October 2, 2012, 10:32 AM

Hello everyone,

As the title states, I'm new to the forum, and new to shooting as well. As for demographics, I live in Northern NJ, I'm 32, and I shoot as a hobby with my girlfriend. In NJ it's a royal pain in the ass to purchase handguns. You need to apply for a permit for each, so when I realized you can get 3 at a time before they expire, I bought 3 right away. They expires after 90 days, and you can only purchase 1 evey 30 days. Long guns are not restricted in this manner. In order to qualify my experiences, I've listed my purchases below.

- Sig P220 Elite Stainless .45 DA/SA NOV '11
- Benelli Nova 12 Gauge DEC '11
- HK P30L 9mm DA/SA DEC '11
- Kimber Eclipse Target II SAO .45 JAN '12
- Ruger Scout Rifle w/ Nikon Monarch 3-12x .308 FEB '12
- LMT MRP CQB (NJ compliant) w/ TA11-HG ACOG 5.56 APR '12
- S&W 686+ Pro Series 5" .357 DA/SA JUL '12 (girlfriend's purchase)

Now the comparison I would like to make is between my Sig and HK. I've always drooled over Sigs (1st) and HK (2nd), so I knew that these would be my first purchases. I learned on the Sig 1st obviously, and I loved it. The trigger felt nice and smooth, albeit a bit long of a pull, and mushy compared to friends 1911s, but I still shot it better. I purcahsed the HK P30L based on the grip alone. I thought the trigger was awful. When dry firing in my home, the plastic makes a rattling sound that echoed through the house. I also thought the placement of the trigger was too far back, or the trigger itself was too thin. Also note the vast majority of my shooting is done in single action.

After about 600 rounds I sent my Sig in to get checked because the frame/slide loosened up quite a bit, and I saw some gauging on the frame. I told them to do the action enhancement package while it was there. Sig said the wear was normal and I got it back. I have to say the DA pull became much easier, and the SA improved a bit as well. I was very very accurate (to my standards) with this pistol. A few hundred rounds later, when at the range, my girlfriend had a jam. I went to clear it and the slide was stuck in battery with a live round trapped in the chamber. Hammer and trigger were pulled back, and the de-cocker wouldn't release it. The owner of the range (a gunsmith) had to work on it with the range officer to get the round out. They sent it back to Sig, who returned it a week later stating there was nothing wrong. I'm still not sure what happened.

The HK, when used with arget 115 gr 9mm would barely eject he brass. It would weakly tickle out. My girlfriend had problems with limpwristing and jamming. After a brief break in period, plus the use of 124 gr ammo, this was resolved. The range time was split between the SIG in .45 as a "treat" and the cheaper 9mm was more for general practice.

Now all of a sudden I think the P30L's trigger is awesome! It just sort of "clicked" with me. Granted, my 1911 is on a whole other planet, I feel the HK trigger would be the one I'd want in a life or death situation. In either DA or SA, with tons of dry fire practice, the sights or laser stay nearly exactly where pointed. This has translated to great accuracy (for me) at the range. I've also noticed that now I haven't been quite as good with the Sig. The trigger feels different since I got it back from them. Not sure if it actually is, or if it's just me. When the trigger breaks, it feels like the gun is bouncing back slightly in my hands even when dry firing. The front sight is pulling high and right. Meanwhile, most of my misses at the range have been low and left.

Anyway, in my beginner opinion, I initially hated the P30L trigger, and would rate it last among my firearms, and I was on board with most negative comments I've seen. Now after having it for a while, I think the trigger is perfect, and I have an understanding of why HK made it as they did. Am I the only one that actually likes it? I would say that the trigger is far better for me than the one on my Sig.

I know this is a long, disorganized rant. Thanks for reading.

TunnelRat · October 2, 2012, 10:40 AM

I also think the P30 trigger is better than its generally made out to be. I usually swap the hammer spring and firing pin block spring in my HKs, but I haven't bothered with the P30 yet as it doesn't seem that bad.

BigJimP · October 2, 2012, 10:45 AM

Good to hear you're having fun with the process ...and starting to evaluate the subtle differences in the guns in your collection.....its a process / and it takes time...and more than a few rounds downrange.

Welcome to our hobby ....and to the forum.

Rick F · October 2, 2012, 10:52 AM

Thanks guys. I'm having fun with the variety I've got at the moment, but I will probably pick up a .22 pistol shortly. I've heard this is the best way to improve to avoide flinching and recoil compensation. I'm also glad my girlfriend bought that S&W. After shooting that in DA, I don't know how pistol DA could be satisfying.

TunnelRat · October 2, 2012, 10:59 AM

Revolvers are great guns and the 686 is a fine example.

BigJimP · October 2, 2012, 11:01 AM

Shooting one gun all the time would be boring....at least to me....

I also like S&W revolvers ..( in K, L and N frames ) especially .357 mag and .44 mag...and a model 18 K frame ( 4" .22 ) helped my revolver shooting a lot.../ same K frame holster for mod 19's or 66's in .357 mag ...or the model 18 in .22....so I can work on that move up and out of the holster...and double taps on target or whatever...perfect my move with the .22 ....but missing the recoil is a big deal ...so eventually I have to go to the .357 mag ...maybe shoot a little with .38 spl ...then full blown .357 mag.../ then I transition into my L frame ( 686's ) or my N frame model 27 in a 4" ...and everything smooths out.
------------
On my Sig 226's ....I do have a .22 conversion kit ...and same transition ...in and out of holster...then go to the 9mm or .40S&W...
-----------
On my 1911's I have conversion kits as well ...same transition ...then to a 1911 in 9mm or .40S&W or .45 acp ...
--------------
Some range days ....just feel like Revolver days...so 3 or 4 and go to the range with a few boxes...

Some days feel like 1911 days...

Some days feel like Sig Sauer days....

Some days just feel like Single Action revolver days....

Its all good ......
-------------------
Depending on the grip angle you like ....since you have and like a 1911 ...a .22 that feels pretty good with that same grip angle is the Browning Buckmark...or look at the conversion kits.

Crow Hunter · October 2, 2012, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Thanks guys. I'm having fun with the variety I've got at the moment, but I will probably pick up a .22 pistol shortly. I've heard this is the best way to improve to avoide flinching and recoil compensation. I'm also glad my girlfriend bought that S&W. After shooting that in DA, I don't know how pistol DA could be satisfying.

Use your 686 to work on your flinching and recoil compensation in the mean time.

When you load it, put 1 or 2 fired cases back in it and rotate the cylinder without looking at it and close it back up so you can't tell where the duds are and shoot it. Focus on that front sight and holding it steady, when you hit the dud, you will see what you are doing wrong. You can even reverse it and just put 1 or 2 live round in it and keep focusing on that front sight and controlling the trigger. You will eventually work it out.

Dryfiring at home with a laser will help even more, be careful though. NO LIVE ROUNDS anywhere around you!

carguychris · October 2, 2012, 11:24 AM

Quote:

I'm also glad my girlfriend bought that S&W [M686+]. After shooting that in DA, I don't know how pistol DA could be satisfying.

IMHO S&W K and L frame revolver triggers are the standard against which all other DA triggers are measured.

Just wait until it's been pulled a few thousand times, they get progressively better.

The only semi-auto pistol I've used that had a DA trigger even close to a broken-in S&W revolver was a SIG P239 DAK, but SIG fans seem to categorically dislike the DAK trigger, usually for reasons that center around the reset. The DAK trigger has a short-reset feature; I understand that it has some issues if you try to "ride the reset" like many semi-auto shooters habitually do, but I did not try to do this because I am used to shooting S&W revolvers and instinctively returned the trigger fully forward after each shot. (S&Ws will "short cycle" and skip chambers without dropping the hammer if the trigger isn't returned.)

Rick F · October 2, 2012, 11:41 AM

I prefer shooting the SW in DA. SA is a bit light for me. I enjoy the trigger control, partially cocking the the hammer and holding until I have the sights lined up. I especially like this one handed. DA on HK or Sig doesn't have the "tactile landmarks" like the SW.

At this point in my ability, I also think the 1911 trigger pull would be too light for me when used as anything other than a range gun.

With all of my firearms, I have my good days, and my bad days, except for my HK. I would say that's the one I am most consistent with.

WVsig · October 2, 2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

At this point in my ability, I also think the 1911 trigger pull would be too light for me when used as anything other than a range gun.

A 1911 trigger does not have to be light. I run a lot of 1911s which are set right around what the SA on your Sig or HK are. The beauty of the 1911 trigger has very little to do with weight IMHO. It has everything to do with design.

Enjoy the process it is IMHO the best part about shooting and owning guns.

Rick F · October 2, 2012, 01:10 PM

Quote:

A 1911 trigger does not have to be light. I run a lot of 1911s which are set right around what the SA on your Sig or HK are. The beauty of the 1911 trigger has very little to do with weight IMHO. It has everything to do with design.

I think it's a combination of light and short pull. My 1911 trigger feels the best for me in the gun store, or dry firing it. I also would not want to modify anything until I become more set in my ways. In actual shooting, I prefer the "slack" in my Sig and HK. Again, this is probably do to my beginner status.

I always hear trigger "creep" and "stacking." Would someone explain these terms? I think I know what they mean, but I don't like assuming things.

Thanks.

WVsig · October 2, 2012, 01:27 PM

Quote:

I think it's a combination of light and short pull. My 1911 trigger feels the best for me in the gun store, or dry firing it. I also would not want to modify anything until I become more set in my ways. In actual shooting, I prefer the "slack" in my Sig and HK. Again, this is probably do to my beginner status.

I always hear trigger "creep" and "stacking." Would someone explain these terms? I think I know what they mean, but I don't like assuming things.

I guess what I am saying is that a 1911 trigger does not have to be light. I have an old Sistema Colt which was right around 7.5 lb when I got it. I would not consider that a light SA pull. The short pull is getting closer. For me it is the straight back pull of the 1911 trigger that makes it such a wonderful thing. YMMV.

Trigger creep: This the resistance you may or may not feel as the trigger and sear contact and slide across each other before trigger breaks and releases the sear. This really only applies to SA triggers. Some SA triggers have a clear and distinct release point others creep towards that point.

Stacking: This the real or perceived increase of resistance as you complete a DA trigger pull. There is an uneven feel to it. It starts lighter then you build resistance until it breaks.

Rick F · October 2, 2012, 02:07 PM

^ Thank you sir

carguychris · October 2, 2012, 02:26 PM

I think there's one other trigger term that's important to know: takeup.

Takeup is the "free" or "empty" portion of a SA trigger's travel before the sear engages and offers significant resistance. One most modern pistols, the trigger's takeup offers a little resistance and may have a subtle "crunchy" feel caused by firing pin blocks and other safety doodads.

One thing that many shooters like about the M1911 trigger, other than the straight-back pull, is that it usually has shorter and smoother takeup than the SA pull of a typical DA/SA pistol. The SA trigger of a S&W revolver typically has almost no perceivable takeup. Although many experienced shooters like this, I've observed that some novices seem to get overzealous or nervous and begin to jerk or slap a trigger with relatively little takeup. I think that more takeup can help some people perceive the spot where the trigger is about to break, improving their confidence.

Rick F · October 2, 2012, 03:13 PM

^ Thanks Chris.

So "Take-Up" is essentially the "slack" I was referring to prior.

October 2, 2012, 10:32 AM	#1
Rick F Member Join Date: October 2, 2012 Posts: 71	New to shooting & the forum. Observations on HK, SIG, Kimber Hello everyone, As the title states, I'm new to the forum, and new to shooting as well. As for demographics, I live in Northern NJ, I'm 32, and I shoot as a hobby with my girlfriend. In NJ it's a royal pain in the ass to purchase handguns. You need to apply for a permit for each, so when I realized you can get 3 at a time before they expire, I bought 3 right away. They expires after 90 days, and you can only purchase 1 evey 30 days. Long guns are not restricted in this manner. In order to qualify my experiences, I've listed my purchases below. - Sig P220 Elite Stainless .45 DA/SA NOV '11 - Benelli Nova 12 Gauge DEC '11 - HK P30L 9mm DA/SA DEC '11 - Kimber Eclipse Target II SAO .45 JAN '12 - Ruger Scout Rifle w/ Nikon Monarch 3-12x .308 FEB '12 - LMT MRP CQB (NJ compliant) w/ TA11-HG ACOG 5.56 APR '12 - S&W 686+ Pro Series 5" .357 DA/SA JUL '12 (girlfriend's purchase) Now the comparison I would like to make is between my Sig and HK. I've always drooled over Sigs (1st) and HK (2nd), so I knew that these would be my first purchases. I learned on the Sig 1st obviously, and I loved it. The trigger felt nice and smooth, albeit a bit long of a pull, and mushy compared to friends 1911s, but I still shot it better. I purcahsed the HK P30L based on the grip alone. I thought the trigger was awful. When dry firing in my home, the plastic makes a rattling sound that echoed through the house. I also thought the placement of the trigger was too far back, or the trigger itself was too thin. Also note the vast majority of my shooting is done in single action. After about 600 rounds I sent my Sig in to get checked because the frame/slide loosened up quite a bit, and I saw some gauging on the frame. I told them to do the action enhancement package while it was there. Sig said the wear was normal and I got it back. I have to say the DA pull became much easier, and the SA improved a bit as well. I was very very accurate (to my standards) with this pistol. A few hundred rounds later, when at the range, my girlfriend had a jam. I went to clear it and the slide was stuck in battery with a live round trapped in the chamber. Hammer and trigger were pulled back, and the de-cocker wouldn't release it. The owner of the range (a gunsmith) had to work on it with the range officer to get the round out. They sent it back to Sig, who returned it a week later stating there was nothing wrong. I'm still not sure what happened. The HK, when used with arget 115 gr 9mm would barely eject he brass. It would weakly tickle out. My girlfriend had problems with limpwristing and jamming. After a brief break in period, plus the use of 124 gr ammo, this was resolved. The range time was split between the SIG in .45 as a "treat" and the cheaper 9mm was more for general practice. Now all of a sudden I think the P30L's trigger is awesome! It just sort of "clicked" with me. Granted, my 1911 is on a whole other planet, I feel the HK trigger would be the one I'd want in a life or death situation. In either DA or SA, with tons of dry fire practice, the sights or laser stay nearly exactly where pointed. This has translated to great accuracy (for me) at the range. I've also noticed that now I haven't been quite as good with the Sig. The trigger feels different since I got it back from them. Not sure if it actually is, or if it's just me. When the trigger breaks, it feels like the gun is bouncing back slightly in my hands even when dry firing. The front sight is pulling high and right. Meanwhile, most of my misses at the range have been low and left. Anyway, in my beginner opinion, I initially hated the P30L trigger, and would rate it last among my firearms, and I was on board with most negative comments I've seen. Now after having it for a while, I think the trigger is perfect, and I have an understanding of why HK made it as they did. Am I the only one that actually likes it? I would say that the trigger is far better for me than the one on my Sig. I know this is a long, disorganized rant. Thanks for reading.

October 2, 2012, 10:40 AM	#2
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	I also think the P30 trigger is better than its generally made out to be. I usually swap the hammer spring and firing pin block spring in my HKs, but I haven't bothered with the P30 yet as it doesn't seem that bad. __________________ Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness

October 2, 2012, 10:59 AM	#5
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	Revolvers are great guns and the 686 is a fine example. __________________ Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness

October 2, 2012, 02:26 PM	#14
carguychris Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 7,523	I think there's one other trigger term that's important to know: takeup. Takeup is the "free" or "empty" portion of a SA trigger's travel before the sear engages and offers significant resistance. One most modern pistols, the trigger's takeup offers a little resistance and may have a subtle "crunchy" feel caused by firing pin blocks and other safety doodads. One thing that many shooters like about the M1911 trigger, other than the straight-back pull, is that it usually has shorter and smoother takeup than the SA pull of a typical DA/SA pistol. The SA trigger of a S&W revolver typically has almost no perceivable takeup. Although many experienced shooters like this, I've observed that some novices seem to get overzealous or nervous and begin to jerk or slap a trigger with relatively little takeup. I think that more takeup can help some people perceive the spot where the trigger is about to break, improving their confidence. __________________ "Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak

October 2, 2012, 10:45 AM	#3
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Good to hear you're having fun with the process ...and starting to evaluate the subtle differences in the guns in your collection.....its a process / and it takes time...and more than a few rounds downrange. Welcome to our hobby ....and to the forum.

October 2, 2012, 10:52 AM	#4
Rick F Member Join Date: October 2, 2012 Posts: 71	Thanks guys. I'm having fun with the variety I've got at the moment, but I will probably pick up a .22 pistol shortly. I've heard this is the best way to improve to avoide flinching and recoil compensation. I'm also glad my girlfriend bought that S&W. After shooting that in DA, I don't know how pistol DA could be satisfying.

October 2, 2012, 11:01 AM	#6
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Shooting one gun all the time would be boring....at least to me.... I also like S&W revolvers ..( in K, L and N frames ) especially .357 mag and .44 mag...and a model 18 K frame ( 4" .22 ) helped my revolver shooting a lot.../ same K frame holster for mod 19's or 66's in .357 mag ...or the model 18 in .22....so I can work on that move up and out of the holster...and double taps on target or whatever...perfect my move with the .22 ....but missing the recoil is a big deal ...so eventually I have to go to the .357 mag ...maybe shoot a little with .38 spl ...then full blown .357 mag.../ then I transition into my L frame ( 686's ) or my N frame model 27 in a 4" ...and everything smooths out. ------------ On my Sig 226's ....I do have a .22 conversion kit ...and same transition ...in and out of holster...then go to the 9mm or .40S&W... ----------- On my 1911's I have conversion kits as well ...same transition ...then to a 1911 in 9mm or .40S&W or .45 acp ... -------------- Some range days ....just feel like Revolver days...so 3 or 4 and go to the range with a few boxes... Some days feel like 1911 days... Some days feel like Sig Sauer days.... Some days just feel like Single Action revolver days.... Its all good ...... ------------------- Depending on the grip angle you like ....since you have and like a 1911 ...a .22 that feels pretty good with that same grip angle is the Browning Buckmark...or look at the conversion kits.

October 2, 2012, 11:41 AM	#9
Rick F Member Join Date: October 2, 2012 Posts: 71	I prefer shooting the SW in DA. SA is a bit light for me. I enjoy the trigger control, partially cocking the the hammer and holding until I have the sights lined up. I especially like this one handed. DA on HK or Sig doesn't have the "tactile landmarks" like the SW. At this point in my ability, I also think the 1911 trigger pull would be too light for me when used as anything other than a range gun. With all of my firearms, I have my good days, and my bad days, except for my HK. I would say that's the one I am most consistent with.

October 2, 2012, 02:07 PM	#13
Rick F Member Join Date: October 2, 2012 Posts: 71	^ Thank you sir

October 2, 2012, 03:13 PM	#15
Rick F Member Join Date: October 2, 2012 Posts: 71	^ Thanks Chris. So "Take-Up" is essentially the "slack" I was referring to prior.