January 21, 2010, 04:52 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 21, 2010
Posts: 116
|
AR or 1911 For HD
I'm new to this forum but was interested purchasing either an AR-15 or a 1911 for home defense. I wanted to get the opinions of other members of this forum. Here's a list I complied of pros and cons of both weapon systems:
AR-15 Pros: -High magazine capacity -Able to engage targets at a distance -More accurate -Lightweight Cons: -Low stopping power -Requires two hands to use -Relatively easy to break because of the plastic butt stock -Over penetration risk 1911 Pros: -More stopping power than AR (45 ACP vs .223) -Can be used with one hand -Easier to use within enclosed areas Cons: -Low magazine capacity -Isn't as accurate -Can't engage targets as far as the AR -Can't penetrate body armor |
January 21, 2010, 05:03 PM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: North Central Florida & Miami
Posts: 3,208
|
there is no 'one size fits all' with HD. I'd buy both platforms, as well as a decent shotgun.
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan |
January 21, 2010, 05:14 PM | #3 | |||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
|
I don't understand why you can't use both? However I do take issue with some of your pros and cons:
AR-15 Pros: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
1911 Pros: Quote:
Quote:
Cons: Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war. |
|||||||||
January 21, 2010, 05:40 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 2,723
|
People generally have one of two broad strategies in mind when it comes to home defense. The first is "barricading", where the home owner sets up in a defensive position and waits for the police to arrive. The second is "investigating" where the home owner attempts to "clear" their own house.
If your home defense plan runs more towards the barricading side of things, my vote goes for the AR. Otherwise I might lean more towards the 1911. |
January 21, 2010, 06:12 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 8, 2009
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 1,902
|
Mannlicher said it right. You probably need one of each. If you are going to confront an intruder or two, you might want to have one hand on a gun and the other on a flashlight. It will be easier to maneuver and you will be more stealthy with a 1911. You are not going to have a four hour firefight inside your house so 7 or 8 rounds will do you.
The AR is probably more of a protect the fort type of weapon. That is to say, keep them from gaining entrance into the house. You have what you need to put out a fair amount of firepower in a short time. A couple of 30 round magazines will keep them at bay until the boys in blue arrive.
__________________
45Gunner May the Schwartz Be With You. NRA Instructor NRA Life Member |
January 21, 2010, 08:28 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 2,199
|
12 gauge....
If you must choose between an AR-15 and a 1911 (in .223 and .45ACP respectively): The AR-15 has more stopping power (by far--it's a rifle round 2700FPS...) You can add a light pretty easily (seeing your target is always good...) Rifles are easier to instinctively aim than pistols. The 1911 can be used one handed (good for opening doors, calling 911, etc). If you get one with a rail, it has the same light-mounting capability as the AR-15. If not, you can use your off hand. ...although, one handed shooting requires a higher level of training... |
January 21, 2010, 08:32 PM | #7 |
Junior Member
Join Date: January 15, 2010
Posts: 1
|
Auto shotgun
|
January 21, 2010, 08:44 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 27, 2009
Location: Ft. Polk
Posts: 883
|
Have any of you even shot someone with a .223 or 5.56 round? Seriously? Think about it, its a .22 round moving at like 3200 to 3800 FPS. It is quite possibly the worst HD weapon you could think of getting. Aside from the liberator...maybe... That hot little round is going to go THROUGH things. LOTS of things. WITHOUT doing much damage. If you're not worried about shooting up your house, a short barreled shotgun (IE mossburg 500) is a great HD weapon. Or some kind of revolver, so you don't have to worry about jams due to spring compression, whether or not one's in the chamber etc. IF you insist on a semi-auto, and you're just using it for home defense, think big, think slow, think MAXIMUM expansion. I don't want to get shot just because you're getting robbed.
A gun is just a TOOL. Its not going to make anyone deader because it looks cool. Like any TOOL you need to match it with the application. An ASSAULT rifle isn't a defensive weapon...an uzi is though. But that Bushmaster 5 million with every tricked out sight and handy-dandy laser doodad isn't going to do you a lick of good close quarters or around turns. And they're very, very loud. Think about getting a can (silencer) permit. They're expensive but it saves on hearing aids. (surefire makes them, they screw on where the flash suppressor goes) Now if you want the AR to be cool or whatever, get it. There's a good tag on here, a man's gun is like his nose, no one should pick it for him. Now if you want the AR to be cool or whatever, get it. Just think before you decide on that being your HD weapon. .357 (they can also shoot .38 rounds, but not vice versa) .45's, heck even a .40 or 9mm would be good. Look up Talon rounds. They're not made anymore, but they can still be found, I've got a box for my 9mm. They're NOT illegal and they're NOT cop killers. They're made to expand. They do NOT have a steel jacket over the top, its some kinda coating to protect your barrel. Like I said they stopped making them but started making another round by a different name but is the same save the coating. They mighta stopped that one too IDK. But IMHO at ranges inside a house it doesn't matter if you can shoot a 1" group at 100yards. It does matter that you can quickly track aim and fire your weapon. It does matter if you can get to your weapon. AND it really matters if you know the BG is in your house BEFORE he's in your bedroom. Cause if he's made it that far without you knowing, then even a M2 locked, cocked and ready to rock isn't going to give you a snowball's chance. Making your home a harder target to hit is a much better investment than an AR or Kimber Custom. Couple cheap magnet alarms, motion sensors, prickly bushes etc. will do you a world of good. A pistol or shotgun within arm's reach will too. Some tricked out AR in the closet or between the mattresses won't. I've seen what the 5.56 does at close range, I've seen how many rounds it takes to stop someone AT close ranges. I've seen a guy keep running after 8 rounds went through his torso. You know why the military uses them? Cause its friggen CHEAP. Its ammo is CHEAPER than 7.62, its also easier on all those light-weight POG's and REMF's to learn how to shoot and not be afraid of the recoil and muzzle blast. Oh yeah, its illegal for civilians to own 30rnd mags. thats why it says for military or police use only on them. And lights are like tracers, they go BOTH ways. Anyway, sorry for the rant and all. Remember that just because it looks cool in the movies doesn't mean it'll be cool in reality. And thats where we live, reality.
__________________
Freedom's just a word. If I'm gonna die for a word, my word is jello... Last edited by semi_problomatic; January 21, 2010 at 08:50 PM. |
January 21, 2010, 09:40 PM | #9 |
Member
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Mpls
Posts: 35
|
I'd like to know where you're getting 3800fps .223 ammo?
Pretty much all defense handgun calibers are capable of roughly the same penetration in ballistics gel - 12" or a little more. Ever measure your chest thickness? I'm about 12" front to back on the outside (I wear a 44" athletic cut suit). A 12" deep wound is going to have an exit hole unless shot at an angle and I'm 210#. Maneuvering a rifle or shot gun in a home from the inside out might be a little harder than you may think. Sub-machine guns like the MP5 and SBR AR's are great for entry teams, but if you start in your bedroom and work your way to where you would most likely encounter an intruder, you may find it's a royal pain in the butt to quickly sweep the spaces inside your house with anything bigger than a hand gun. It also presents an easier target for an intruder to get a hold of and divert the muzzle away from them in the event they're able to get that close to you. In either case, the weapon should be what you're most comfortable using. |
January 21, 2010, 09:46 PM | #10 |
Member
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Mpls
Posts: 35
|
It's also NOT illegal for civilians to own 30rd mags. I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it's far from factual.
3270fps is as fast as NATO 5.56 runs. .223 remington is a little slower. |
January 21, 2010, 10:45 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 9, 2006
Posts: 424
|
To the poster who mentioned "have you ever shot someone with a .223?" Yes I have. It's quite effective even with M193. For the SD I would recommend the 1911 in 45acp. Get a good 1911 like an Ed Brown, or Wilson even a Kimber or Springfield. Put a good light on it and shoot a lot. 200 rounds/week. Practice off hand, one hand in the light, in the dark. The AR will cost less than some 1911s and requires sufficient training in CQB, but, it'll get the job done!!
One thing I might point out is that once the trigger is pulled and the BG loses the real fight begins. I would recommend Massad Ayoob's book The Truth About Self Protection. Caution on shooting a BG at any significant distance, remember you're probably going to have to defend your choices. |
January 21, 2010, 10:59 PM | #12 |
Member
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Mpls
Posts: 35
|
Along those same lines, it's going to look bad to a jury when you have to explain why you thought you needed 30 rounds for HD and wanted to be able to engage them at 400yds.
Unless you have a ranch, and routinely have drug cartels charging your homestead... Well, you can see where this is headed. Staying alive is obviously the first priority, but you also have to consider what happens after when the DA thinks you were excessive and intends to prove it. Don't get me wrong, I keep loaded mags for both my AR and my Cetme, but those guns are locked up till something like katrina happens and I determine I have an area to suppress and need a presentation of overwhelming force to deter (or react to) an assault. |
January 21, 2010, 11:15 PM | #13 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
|
Quote:
To address your question, the pistol is more versatile and handier, the rifle is FAR more effective. The question is hypothetical (for me, anyway) and my HD strategy includes long guns and pistols. |
|
January 21, 2010, 11:17 PM | #14 |
Member
Join Date: January 19, 2010
Location: NC (for now)
Posts: 35
|
save $249.00 plus the local tax where you live, go to Wal###t and buy a Remington 870 12 Ga. Express then spend $18.00 on 3 boxes of #8 target loads. Go shoot two boxes for practice and from ranges of 5 feet to 25 feet (shooting cardboard) and LEARN what it will and won't do, you will be surprised
For Home defense, it's all you need besides a good flashlight and a cell phone....... Later you can accesorize that 870 with a light mount, some spiffy black poly stocks, side saddle and a good sling. As far as the .45ACP having more stopping power than a .223/5.56 as you mentioned.........you better rethink that......then "stopping power" of .223 is about 3.5 times that of the .45 But it dosen't matter what size the bullet is or how fast it's going, it matters where you place it..... Better yet.... buy a dog, that barks.........LOUD If it bites someone, trust me.....it will be a lot less pain than going through a shooting investigation and the aftermath Last edited by 94Girl; January 21, 2010 at 11:23 PM. |
January 21, 2010, 11:18 PM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,649
|
Quote:
My answer? Either will do very well provided you buy the right ammo and put at least 500 rds through it with zero stoppages (some, perhaps many, would argue at least 1000). My personal preference would be a 12ga shotgun.
__________________
Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250 Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging. OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe |
|
January 21, 2010, 11:35 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 5, 2009
Location: Tacoma WA
Posts: 469
|
both!
i know its a glock not a 1911, but roll with it personally i sleep just fine with a 1911, with a attached light. --course there is a shotgun loaded in the safe, and two mags loaded for my m4 just saying
__________________
EDIT: yeah i always "edit" my posts |
January 21, 2010, 11:36 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 24, 2009
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 3,341
|
What is your need?
The first thing to do is to evaluate the threat and put it in context.
Do you live in a rural setting with wide open spaces where the threat might be visible from a long ways off (and likewise be dangerous from a distance)? Then evaluate your resources. Are you alone? Two of you. What is your experience level? What do you expect the response time of backup to be (police or neighbors). In order to make an intelligent recommendation, there are many, many things we need to know. Generally, a shotgun is best for the typical home defense scenario. Call for assistance/backup and remain stationary in a defensible position. But that assumes a great deal about your situation, about which I know nothing. Help us out here. Lost Sheep |
January 21, 2010, 11:48 PM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 27, 2009
Location: Ft. Polk
Posts: 883
|
I got my .223 info from my hornady reloader book. A remington 223 40grain V-MAX with 27.8gr. of AA 2460 pushes 3800 fps. And .223 at close range goes straight through, its going too fast for any significant damage, why do you think SF changed to 6.8 and 7.62 rounds?
Also, the mossberg 500 isn't a long weapon, don't know if you've ever handled one or not but its not exactly a remchester. Put a pistol grip on it and its even shorter. I never said it wouldn't ruin the BG's day, but it will give him a lot longer time to ruin yours as well. READ along those 30 round mags. its printed VERY clearly on the side "RESTRICTED LAW ENFORCEMENT/GOVERNMENT USE ONLY" I know, I'm holding one in my lap now.
__________________
Freedom's just a word. If I'm gonna die for a word, my word is jello... |
January 21, 2010, 11:50 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2009
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,037
|
I'm not going to try to comment on self-defense ballistics - I think a good solid center-torso hit at about 10' is going to have the same effect regardless of which round you use.
But a good point was made in the thread about revolvers not needing to have magazines with their springs fully compressed for extended periods. I have a number of HD firearms concealed around the house, and they are all revolvers. Obviously its situationally dependent - what is right for you might not be right for someone else. But a 12 ga shotgun with 5 rounds in a holder and a loaded revolver would also provide you with significant HD capability, and may cost less as well. (Unless you envision fighting off a platoon of heavily armed goblins...) Just MHO, FWIW.
__________________
Treat everyone you meet with dignity and respect....but have a plan to kill them just in case. |
January 22, 2010, 12:24 AM | #20 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 2,723
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
January 22, 2010, 12:34 AM | #21 |
Member
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Mpls
Posts: 35
|
Why'd they switch to the 6.8? Because a 62gr bullet (heavier, and slower than your micro weight 40gr .223 example which is NOT a standard factory or mil spec load) will never have the kinetic energy capacity that a 110gr bullet has at comparable chamber pressures.
The move away from the .308 round was due to allowing soldiers to carry more ammo at a lower weight than the heavier .30 cal rounds. Unless you need to penetrate a vehicle, cover, or structure, there's a lot of merit to the smaller, lighter bullets. Once you encounter fortification, you need the heavier bullet to punch through that cover. The wars in Europe and Korea showed that the extra "oomph" of the heavier rounds was rarely needed by the foot soldier (fortified targets were dealt with by the squads machine gunner), and the trade off to being able to carry more bullets was deemed a benefit over a non-existent loss of "killing power." As has been said, a good shot with .223 will severely ruin your day. It doesn't take much to kill a man. I've been looking all over my colt, magpul, and god knows what other brand 30rd mags and none of them is marked as you claim. Maybe in your hick state they're not legal, but when I'm not buying them from Brownells, I buy them from a police supply shop and they're well aware I'm not active/guard/or any kind of law enforcement. Do you really think they'd risk selling them to me when the guy in front and behind me in line are uniformed local officers? |
January 22, 2010, 12:50 AM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 6, 2005
Posts: 775
|
Inside a house I think a handgun of at least 9mm is preferable over any long gun due to the tight quarters. The long gun's barrel is ahead of you and I think it would be easier to take away as you go around corners.
If you wanted to use long gun then I think a shotgun would be better than a long range type firearm such as an AR. Our primary home defense guns are a 9mm Stoeger Cougar for me and a 38spl Taurus stubby for my wife. I do also have quick access to a SxS short barrelled Coachgun, which is just about the shortest legal shotgun there is. |
January 22, 2010, 01:08 AM | #23 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
|
Quote:
Build your home defense like you would a tool box. The firearms are your tools. Mine is a Beretta M9 and a Remington 870 pump, loaded with 00buck followed by a slug (alternating that way down the tube). I also have an AR, with the evil 30 round pmag. But which one I use depends on the situation. The AR wound probably be last in the list. Break in/home invasion at night, 12 guage. Knock at door at an odd hour, door answered with pistol in hand. Best you can do is plan ahead, play out "what if's" with your family. You should have a home invasion plan just like you should have a fire, severe weather plan.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century 1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law. If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say. |
|
January 22, 2010, 08:35 AM | #24 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
If you want to follow Ayoob's logic of using what the cops use, then it works even better. Many of our local departments use AR15s. Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
||
January 22, 2010, 08:40 AM | #25 |
Member
Join Date: January 19, 2010
Location: NC (for now)
Posts: 35
|
Dear Semi Problomatic,
Hon, The magazine ban has been over for a while now, I don't know how famillar you are with firearms but there are billions of "non-marked" AR mags out there as there are "marked" mags, both in rifle and pistol. It is perfectly LEGAL to own both with or with out the markings, and you DO NOT have to be a LEO, or Military. Read again: BAN IS OVER...... (for now) I hope this helps |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|