ATF Project Gunrunner

[MTT TL]

He was making a poor overall generalization using an old saw.

[C0untZer0]

During the last hearings I thought "our side" did a poor job of emphasizing how the cartels were really getting their guns.

Conversely Holder's allies consistently harped on lax gun laws as the main supply for the cartels.

This immunity deal sounds like the equivilant of the U.S. Government selling guns to the cartels directly.

I'm thinking that DOJ would rather lose the Vicente Zambada-Niebla case rather than provide the defense with the docs they are asking for. I'm sure the defense knows this and maybe that's their strategy.

I think DOJ knows they can't afford to give documents to Vicente Jesus Zambada-Niebla's defense team that they've with held from Issa and Grasley.

[Tom Servo]

This immunity deal sounds like the equivilant of the U.S. Government selling guns to the cartels directly.

It's still a criminal immunity deal. Some folks will say anything, and throw anybody under the bus, for one of these. I'm going to wait until more comes out before I attach any credibility to a former drug lord turned snitch who's looking for a soft landing.

If his allegations do have credibility, I see a bright future in government service for him, though.

[jimpeel]

In 1990 the Custom s Department intercepted one ton of cocaine entering the U.S. The person bringing it in was a CIA asset who stated he was operating under CIA orders. The CIA admitted that this was true; and "60 Minutes" did an expose on this case wherein the former head of the DEA admitted that the CIA did, indeed, smuggle one ton of cocaine into the U.S.

The reaction was mostly "Ho-hum."

[Tom Servo]

The CIA admitted that this was true; and "60 Minutes" did an expose on this case wherein the former head of the DEA admitted that the CIA did, indeed, smuggle one ton of cocaine into the U.S.

There are significant differences. First, the agency in question knew where the contraband was, and presumably, where it was going. This wasn't the case with the ATF.

Second, the contraband in question was headed in to the United States, where it could be monitored. The ATF was funneling guns out to a foreign nation, after which tracking would be nearly impossible.

Third, there's a difference between drugs and guns. Law enforcement will sometimes let booze, pornography, cigarettes, or whatnot walk with the intention of tracking it further down the line. The exception is guns. It's an unwritten rule that you never, ever let guns walk.

[jimpeel]

I'm not trying to compare apple to oranges. The point was who to believe.

The ones who wish us to believe that they would not participate in such an undertaking have previous history to overcome. They are simply not the first government department to participate in this type of undertaking.

[Tom Servo]

It looks like Holder will be testifying again on February 2nd. From Rep. Issa's statement,

The Attorney General will be asked to address management deficiencies within the Department that occurred both during and after the conclusion of Operation Fast and Furious. This will include the Department's steadfast refusal to disclose information following the February 4, 2011 letter to Senator Grassley, which the Department has withdrawn because it contained false information denying allegations made by whistleblowers about Operation Fast and Furious. The committee's investigation has found documentation that numerous members of the Justice Department knew the letter to Congress contained false information both before it was sent and later withdrawn.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

And in possibly related news, the NY Times, Daily Mail, and the Mexican magazine Emeequis, are all reporting that the DEA helped a Colombian cocaine supplier named Harold Mauricio Poveda-Ortega launder millions of dollars in an effort to infilitrate cartels working in Mexico. The article even reports that the DEA escorted a shipment of cocaine through Dallas. The article goes on to report that this supplier is estimated to have shipped 150 tons of cocaine to the United States. Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...=feeds-newsxml

I'm confused at how this law enforcement thing is supposed to be working. I don't understand how laundering millions of dollars of drug money, shipping guns to drug lords, and protecting drug loads as they pass through the United States, is supposed to reduce those activities. It seems to me that federal "sting" operations might be more effective in reducing drug trafficking simply by not funding and continuing the operations they are already involved in.

[CowTowner]

It seems to me that federal "sting" operations might be more effective in reducing drug trafficking simply by not funding and continuing the operations they are already involved in.

If nothing else, following that line of thinking could potentially reduce the federal deficit quit a bit.
Think about the time and money these operations cost the tax payers.

[jimbob86]

I'm confused at how this law enforcement thing is supposed to be working.

I am not. These Federal Law Enforcement Beauracracies have forgotten their Sir Robert Peel, #9:

"The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it."

.... they seemed to also have succumbed to ..... Crap! it escapes me - Someone said "There are two types of people in every oraganization. The first is loyal to the original purpose of the organization. The second are loyal to the organization itself. This second group tends to gravitate to management and leadership...." There's a name for it and everything, but I can't seem to find it.....

[jimbob86]

Think about the time and money these operations cost the tax payers.

I think that many of these organizations raison d'Etre has ceased to be what it was originally set up for, and is now predominantly to provide Government Paychecks...... and be a useful political tool.....

[Tom Servo]

I'm confused at how this law enforcement thing is supposed to be working.

Bart, I think you just effectively summed up all 73 pages of this thread

[jgcoastie]

Originally Posted by C0untZer0

I'm thinking that DOJ would rather lose the Vicente Zambada-Niebla case rather than provide the defense with the docs they are asking for. I'm sure the defense knows this and maybe that's their strategy.

I think DOJ knows they can't afford to give documents to Vicente Jesus Zambada-Niebla's defense team that they've with held from Issa and Grasley.

Emphasis Mine

If so, it's an absolutely brilliant defense strategy... Not that I'm supportive of the alleged offenses by the defendant in this case, but it is a remarkable strategy.

[alan]

Bartholomew Roberts writes:

"I'm confused at how this law enforcement thing is supposed to be working ..."
------------------------

It might boil down to a question of whom one believes.

Speaking personally, it strikes me that the federal government, under this current administration, has preciious little in the way of credibility. By the way, this is not to say that the one that came before it was much if any better, but that is beside the point.

Now it might be that I'm all wet, I have been so described in other instances. That having been said, I find the present administration lacking. Unfortunately, the current crop of their opponents, The Republicans, do not appear to be particularly encourageing either.

[KyJim]

I thought I had read about the immunity agreement months earlier. It's probably somewhere here in this thread. I did find a report from October 2011 about the alleged immunity deal:
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/not...sinaloa-cartel

[C0untZer0]

Washington Times story:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ts-to-be-made/

There is so much here and so much that has already been talked about but I do think that arming those border patrol agents with bean bags and then sending them against killers that BATFE armed with rifles is astounding.

I picture in my mind a scene with DOJ in the middle, the stone-cold killer-narco terrorists and one side and U.S. Border agents on the other side, and DOJ turns to the terrorists and says "Here ya go - you guys can have AK-47s and .50 cal sniper rifles", and then DOJ turns to the Border patrol and says "You guys get bean bags..."


.

[MTT TL]

The article even reports that the DEA escorted a shipment of cocaine through Dallas. The article goes on to report that this supplier is estimated to have shipped 150 tons of cocaine

That works out to about 1/4 of the annual world wide production. If only they could have worked their way up to one of the "big fish" in the operation instead of dealing with all the small timers.

[C0untZer0]

LA Times:

Members of Congress want to see whether White Gun, like Fast and Furious, lost track of firearms that ended up with Mexican criminals.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,3917291.story

My first question is:

If Obama & Friends were so quick to bring up other gun-running operations like Wide Reciever - why were they quiet about "White Gun" ?


The other thing about this operation is that it failed in acheiving it's stated goals, but it was characterized as an operation that “put a stop to a well-financed criminal conspiracy to acquire massive destructive firepower."



.

[BGutzman]

“put a stop to a well-financed criminal conspiracy to acquire massive destructive firepower."

I dont think our great fathers administration will put the brakes on itself but its usually a great reason for promotions all around..

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Just as Guzman Patino seemed ready to buy, according to the ATF records, the investigation into his activities abruptly ended. The documents do not explain why, and they don't indicate whether he obtained any weapons.

Interesting part of the LA Times link.

[jimpeel]

Who was the guy on the committee who went down Holder's throat stamping his feet all the way? As I recall, he told Holder in no uncertain terms that he was directly responsible for everything that went on in F&F and its results.

[alloy]

Fox News has reported(TV) that at the Dept of Justice, chief prosecutor Patrick Cunningham has resigned as a result of the FF investigations.
However I'm unsure of his role past/present/future....was he whistleblowing, investigating DoJ, or in charge of part of the operation itself?

[alan]

Below is a copy of my Letter to the Editor, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette re a Washington Post by-lined article appearing in 15 January Post-Gazette. The article was headlined Obama's gun dealer reporting regulastions are upheld, wjch I think is germane to this discussion. Should any of the moderators heree fel that the comment would be beetter locatef relsewhere, possibly under a different heading, that's your call, relocate it.

----- Original Message -----
From: alan
To: Post Gazette
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:46 PM
Subject: thoughts onObama's gun dealer reporting regulations are upheld, 15 Jan P-G, main section, by-lined The Washington Post


Editor:

Re the ruling by U.S. District Court Judge Rosemary Collyer in the referenced case, a suit brought against Obama ordered gun purchase reporting, note the following.

1. The Congress has repeatedly, and wisely refused to legislate any sort of centralized gun registration scheme. The routine dreamed up by the Obama Administration, its' DOJ and the ATF amount to a large step toward the creation of such a centralized gun registry, clearly a case of grievous abuse of executive power.

2. As for problems attributable to the the illegal transit of firearms from the U.S. to Mexico, the "Gun Walking" aided and abetted by DOJ and ATF is clearly a case of bureaucratic stupidity, combined with bureaucratic criminality, criminality that contributed to the death of at least one U.S. Law Enforcement Agent, a Border Patrol Officer killed in a shoot-out with what one assumes were Mexican Narco Bandits, though they might simply have been armed Mexican criminals.

3. "ATF acted rationally" said Judge Collyer. For the ATF, "rational action" would be something of a break from long established tradition, but one supposes that the judge, like everyone else is entitled to her own opinion. On this subject however, one if given to recall an observation attributed to the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, of the U.S. Senate. Moynihan once noted that "while people are entitled to their own opinions, they are not entitled to their own facts". Judge Collyer needs to think on this.

4. With respect to the foregoing, while there is no doubt whatever that something was going on in, or through the mind of Judge Collyer when she came up with her ruling, one can only wonder as to exactly that might have been, the facts of the matter being what they so obviously are.

[alan]

Excuse the "choppy" spelling in my introduction. Obviously, I neglected to run the thing through a spell check.

Alan

[C0untZer0]

jimpeel are you talking about Utah Republican Rep. Jason Chaffetz ?



He is pretty firery, but surprisingly - he hasn't called for Holder's resignation that I know of - at least he hadn't last year, although he got close to it in a statement:

“The Attorney General is always involved in very serious matters,” Chaffetz said. “It’s the nature of the job. If he can’t handle it and thinks it’s somehow based on something other than his performance, maybe it is time for him to get another job.”