Taser in Action.... this is GREAT

[DT Guy]

Sometimes I find it surprising that people who wouldn't dream of second-guessing a surgeon, a pilot or an automobile mechanic can watch a police in-car video and proffer opinions about it. Many do it without understanding such basic concepts as 'passive resistance' and the use of force continuum itself.

What is there about law enforcement that makes people think that they can Monday morning QB an incident from an in-car camera? Why do people suggest boxing techniques as a replacment for a less than lethal restraint device?

I had a teacher once who responded to a kid's contention that, 'everybody has a right to an opinion' by flatly contradicting him. He said that you EARNED your right to an opinion by doing the work necessary to be informed about the subject. If you weren't a nuclear scientist, you didn't have a 'right' to an opinion on how to construct a containment dome; if you didn't go to medical school, you didn't have a 'right' to call an MD wrong and prescribe an herbal cure for yourself.

If you want to have an informed opinion on what an LEO goes through, go wrestle some drunks on a backroad somewhere. See how many people DON'T care that you have a badge and a gun, and try to take a pop at you. Best of all, get called out of roll call to explain how you tried to arrest that drunk without killing him or letting him kill you, and he got scuffed up in the process...or go home and explain to your kids that dad was hurt at work by another grown man who thought it would be fun to fight with the police.

How about recognizing that there is some expertise here, some training, some experience, that many don't have-and that those things are necessary to make an intelligent judgment about how someone WITH those things is supposed to react in such a situation.

FWIW, I'd ride with that officer any time-and I'd hope it was someone like him who pulled me over if I ever got stupid drunk and needed to get taken off the road....


Sorry-rant off!

Larry

[Drop-Shot]

I have family that is in the law enforcement fields and I'm with Lord Nikon on this,the officers commands confused me and I don't drink.1 shot and the man was paralized.I have a heart condition and that would have ended my life,I would not have put myself in that state to say the least.When an officer says put your hands on your head or behind your back,you do it and if the driver is in the right you fight it in court,but I agree with 1 shot of a taser but multiple shots will be the short end to a great weapon.Drop-Shot

[Timulator]

I have a heart condition and that would have ended my life, I would not have put myself in that state to say the least. When an officer says put your hands on your head or behind your back,you do it and if the driver is in the right you fight it in court,but I agree with 1 shot of a taser but multiple shots will be the short end to a great weapon.

IMHO, that video was a textbook application of the taser. Yeah, the officer's commands may have been a bit contradictory from a literal standpoint, but come on.... The action demanded is pretty basic! Stay down! Contradictory or not, stop getting back up! Especially after the suspect's behavior immediately previous to the first taser shot, each time the suspect got back up justified another shot of the taser. Absolutely.

As for the taser likely killing Drop-Shot, that is exactly why such weapons are called "less-lethal" weapons as opposed to "non-lethal."

[Lord_Nikon]

Originally Posted by Timulator

Yeah, the officer's commands may have been a bit contradictory from a literal standpoint, but come on.... The action demanded is pretty basic! Stay down!

Originally Posted by WaltherP22ASSN

I am an EMT and I see these situations all the time. When a person drinks too much alcohol the reasoning part of the brain is shut off by the ethanol thus the person could become violent and all sorts of problems could occur.

(Emphasis is mine.)

My point seems to stand.

[Danindetroit]

So I am not a congressman, I can't say anything about the government, I am not a lawyer, I can't have an opinion about the supreme court, I have never been president, I never remeber being a sheriff, but I vote for them every four years, I guess I shouldn't vote then, it seems like the unknowing masses, are too stupid, or do not have the experience. Being a police officer is a government function, and taxpayers pay their salary, we can discuss their tactics, just like any government official. I am the one who makes decisions about my health-care, not a Dr. he gives me options, and I pick what I want, if the Dr, is not willing to work with me, I am fortunate enough to have healthcare where I choose my DR.

My wife has worked for the department of corrections for the over 10 years, people she worked with, one is an Oakland County sheriff, the other is a Keego Harbor PO. She has worked as a probation officer, for the last couple of years. My aunt's husband's brother is a US Marshal. This is a guy who she interviewed 2 weeks before this incident, he was assaulted by his wife. She writes pre sentence investigations, and had to get a victim statement, she handed him the paper work, and waited in her car, she told me about "the crazy guy" who got hit in the head with an umbrella stand, by his wife. My wife can get fired, because one of her probationers names is mentioned on the news, they come get her files, and check them over, and if they find a t crossed funny they will fire you.

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/slay20_20030820.htm

I have gotten into fights with drunks, and sober people. This seems to be a forum for people, to discuss things, I do not understand what was so great about the video. If it was a guy getting shocked, get a scanner, and go to traffic accidents where people are injured, I saw enough bodies on the ground while driving a semi-truck, I do not need to see more blood, or sufferring, if it was this officers superior handling of the situation, I have a different view, officers being given time to train, on all sorts of skills, needs to be emphasied, my wife says the training wait for her would be 10 months, that is about 100 felony probationer doors knocked on, including home invasion, lifetime probation for selling drugs, and convicts who were sentenced to probation after serving prison time, plus about 4 pre-sentence investigations a month, with a varying number of people needing to be seen, and seeing people every week in the office. I guess the 1st amendment gives me the right to have, and voice my opinion, not necessarily here, but your teacher might have been right, they do not give rights to anyone under 18, but since I am over 18 your teacher is wrong. That cop, was polite, but lucky. I may be going senile, but I do not remember advocating striking anybody in the head. I guess what if you find out the guy isn't drunk, but sufferring from low blood sugar, and is delerious, and pissed because they know they haven't been drinking, they will not be able to follow commands, and can act just like a drunk. No amount of taserings will help this person.

I have changed manifolds on cars, installed headers, and carbs, I can weld, and do brakes, bleed the lines, I always ask about what a mechanic is doing, and why.

[NSO_w/_SIG]

but it dosen't mean you are right. Being critical of the decisions cops make is easy. Bottom line, until you have been in these situations which demand split second decisons that can at times mean life or death, which come in such a wide variety, then maybe you would think differently. What other profession deamnds that? None! ......... Ok, a combat solider.

What is great about the video? It is humorous for one. Besides that it shows the effects of a taser, which is why i posted it here.

I bet if that guy would of crashed into your car, full of your family, head on you wouldn't be sing that tune. He was taken off the street and noone was hurt, so it was successful.

For those who say that amount of shock would kill a person with a heart condition. Come on gimme a break. Sounds like the guy who told me if he walked through a metal detector with his pace maker it would stop it and he would die. You are just as likely walking up a flight of steps and dying than dying from that amount of shock. Is it possible? yeah. Is it likely? no.
I guess that is something that you'll need to consider before you get drunk, drive and then resist a police officer.

Low blood sugar and delerious? Yeah, and that makes your breath smell just like budwieser. I am sure that cop confirmed that he was drunk as soon as he came within 10 ft.

[Derius_T]

This discussion is starting to border on the absurd. The guy was drunk, beligerent, had physically resisted the officer, and refused to follow commands. If the commands were a little confusing, SO WHAT? Anyone knows ok....I've been tazed once.....I will NOT FREAKING MOVE, and quickly tell the officer I don't understand his commands, but I will NOT MOVE.
How freakin hard is that to understand? Some of you seem to be almost sympathetic to this idiot drunk. Wow, thats how whining, sissy, liberals are born....I'd be careful.

Fact is, DRUNK, STUPID, RESISTING, NON COMPLIANCE MULTIPLE TIMES, he got what he deserved, and was real, real, lucky I wasn't the LEO in that situation. When he wrestled with me, shoving me towards traffic, he'd have gotten twisted up like a pretzel and ate some asphalt real hard, real fast.

Support your police. He acted with incredible restraint, it ended with no bloodshed, and he got an idiot drunk off the road. The next car he plowed could have been your car, or your family. He should get thank you letters, not critisism.......

[Conservadude]

DT_GUY: While I agree on the value of having an informed opinion based on training and information that applies, I disagree on whether or not someone without training can have an opinion or not ...earned or not. Who are the people that form the checks and balances that keep our government and law enforcement system operating properly? Our doctors from malpracticing? Our lawyers from being unfair? It's the public ...and darn it all, they have enough basic knowledge to know right from wrong and CAN form opinions and state them. No, they shouldn't *do* those various jobs until they are trained, but the public and their opinion should not be underrated or devalued because they didn't go through medical school or the police academy.

The police officer in this case asked they guy over and over IF he was going to do as asked, and the guy continued to say 'no' in no uncertain terms. The guy also continued to to disobey in the simplest of ways. It is very clear that the guy was not going to comply until forced to. The officer did the right thing. My only concern was for the officer. He placed himself at risk with this guy. He either should have forced him to the ground or against the vehicle in a heartbeat instead of holding on to a sleeve and doing the two-step quickie and the Bosanova. Had he responded more appropriately sooner, the taser would likely have been avoided to ...noting that I have absolutely zero problem with this guy getting shot with a taser. I'm glad that he learned a lesson ...or at least I hope he did. Innocent or guilty, citizens need to comply with the officer and do as told, drunk or sober. The officer needs to gain control and maintain it. This officer didn't, and after finally letting to of the guy (fortunately still in possession of both his gun and taser and maglight) and not stabbed or shot by who-knows-what the guy had in his pocket, he finally used a stronger approach. My uncle was a cop in North Portland (Oregon) and I'll tell you what ...you never saw a perp dancing with him, back road or highway. He retired on top of the stack and highly respected.

Brian

[MCIWS]

Saw an in-car-video of a similar situation where the man pulled a M-16A1 (I believe) out of the cab of his truck and shot the officer to death with it. This officer did the right thing by using non-leathel force. It is easy to watch two people play chess and critisize their moves, but once your in the game yourself it is copmletely different.

[DT Guy]

Just to clarify: I never intended to imply people couldn't VOICE their opinions. I should have been clearer.

I meant to suggest we should ascribe differing values to people's opinions based on their apparent knowledge of the subject, their experience and their ability to project themselves intelligently into the position in question.

I certainly feel comfortable having an opinion about our president-I don't feel comfortable, and wouldn't voice an opinion, on the trade differential in gross exports between the US and Istanbul.

In other words, I might judge the effectiveness of someone's actions in a position I've never held, but I wouldn't offer specific critiques of the elements of their job I don't understand, have never done and have performed no research on.

Larry

[Conservadude]

So much for tasers. In my opinion, this one has got to be one of the funniest DUI arrests that I've seen:

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/topdui.html

Brian

[43061]

All in all I think the officer did a good job. Maybe there were some things that each of us would have liked to have seen him do better, but how many of you that are “Monday morning quarterbacking” this officer have to deal with uncooperative drunks for a living?

I don’t totally disagree with some of your assessments, but I do have some questions:

Dan, would it really have been better for the officer to drop his flashlight instead of putting it away as he did? I cannot see how providing the drunk with a weapon while the officer was trying to arrest him would be a better choice.

There isn’t enough time or money for required training and equipment in most small departments. Are the politicians going to spend taxpayer money for anything that could be slightly controversial? I think a membership at a health club would have its share of controversy. Even if my city did pay for it, I wouldn’t want to drive the thirty miles each way often enough to make it worthwhile.

Speaking of spending money, I wonder where a department is going to get approval for spending $4000 on weight equipment. I have easily that much money tied up in my own home gym, but not everyone getting paid a police salary can afford that kind of outlay. If I didn’t have military retirement I couldn’t afford to be a cop. If my department had an extra, $1500 I’d vote to have a laptop installed in my cruiser. $4000 and I’d vote for NVG equipment or a Taser.

I spent over $5000 last year on weapons and other equipment my department couldn’t afford to provide me. Again, I’m spending retirement dollars for the assurance of being better armed than the guys running drugs through here.

Someone asked where officer #2 was at. I don’t think that is an unreasonable question, but where I work the second officer is off-duty. I cannot count the number of times I’ve run out of here half dressed in the middle of the night because an officer was requesting backup. There is a sheriff, five deputies, and three police officers in our entire county, and one of us is very likely to need assistance on any given night. The chance of the other officer being within fifteen miles is slim to none. Last year, I probably averaged twice a week where I was responding to calls for assistance that were more than thirty miles away. Keep in mind; I’m one of the police officers, not a deputy.

This is why some officers don’t want cameras in their cruisers. There are too many people that catch a glimpse of some procedural error and miss the fact that the officer was dealing with a belligerent drunk that was not cooperating from the start. He was being arrested because he wouldn’t do SFST.

Just a guess, some of you must be defense attorneys.

[Relayer]

One thought on a possible different course of action for the LEO. IF he had backup coming, he might have waited for LEO #2 to arrived before trying to place the drunk under arrest. That's IF backup was available. If not, then he had to do it himself, obviously. Still, if backup was en route, he would have to prevent the drunk from leaving the scene, if he attempted that.

If he had to make the arrest himself, I think he might have used a little more aggressive/forceful action, and remained within the bounds of initial softhand measures.

Otherwise, he showed excellent restraint. And tried to reason with the subject after the inital takedown. Could his commands have been a bit more precise? Yes, but hey at that point the drunk was probably going on instict, anyway.

Bottom line, he did basically the right thing, in my book. I find it amusing (no, sad, really) when I hear "well, what if the drunk & belligerent driver who's a deadly threat to anyone he meets on the road and wants to resist arrest, falls and hurts himself while assaulting an LEO?"

PLEASE!

[Para Bellum]

1. The officer was right
What else should he have done? Imagine he didn't have the taser. The BG wanted to go on driving drunk. Should he have shot his leg or tyre and let the BG try some driving with a flat tyre....
Confusing commands? Who of us would have been able to stay as calm and focussed as the officer did? Well done.

2. Great demonstration
I didn't believe the immediate incapacitation by a taser . I think this beats every handgun (regarding immediate incapacitation). So my lesson here is: I'll continue carrying my 9x19mm and get my wife a taser instead of the pappersprays.

Stay safe.

[Lord_Nikon]

1. I give up on the original argument.

2. The second video is some of the best footage I've ever seen!

[DT Guy]

Para,

Volunteer for a Taser ride. Pretty d##@$d effective, IF you get the barbs in. Problem is, the effect is gone IMMEDIATELY, literally IMMEDIATELY, when the shock stops. The B/G can get up and chase you until you run out of battery, assuming pain doesn't convince him to stop-and as we've seen, it doesn't always do so.

Somebody's going to come out with a Taser that will let you pepperfoam the B/G while shocking him, and they're going to make a mint....


Larry

[Danindetroit]

This post being in Tactics and training, and labeled taser in action...this is great, was what made me critical of the officer's tactic's. I have never arrested a drunk, I have been in some scuffles, and when I worked as a truck driver, I made frequent deliveries on and worked along highways. I did not see any cars during the arrest, but I do know that they hardly move over, and do not slow down, from my experience being pushed into a street, means big trouble. I see that video and see people I know being pushed into traffic, or hurt, I just believe that stop had the potential to go bad. It was a "win", but in a sports analogy, an ugly win. Some departments do not have tasers, and with the drunk facing away from the officer, I am not sure if pepper sprayy would have worked

My thinking on dropping the light, is that If the drunk, looked at the light, when he heard it hit the ground, the officer might get an opening to grab him, and apply the wristlock, or the hold, that he tried at first, from what I have seen, most people will bend at the waist to pick up something on the ground, hopefully the officer could grab him by the back of the neck, and the pants, and force him off balance and to the ground, put his knee in his back and cuff him, if the guy squatted, I would have thought, that he was going to charge, and escalated the situation.

As for an officer, or somebody dealing with people, and needing to be 300#'s, and bench 400#'s, I have seen age enabled doormen, at bars, use the old back of the pants, and scruff of the neck trick to "walk" people out of bars. The main factor was that they had the mindset, training, experience, whatever, that this person was leaving, and they left.

I would like governments, to spend money on more training for police, corrections, and probation/parole officers. I bet by cutting welfare rolls, the money could be found. Some corrections facilities in MI, have small workout facilities as well as some firehouses. A basic rack, that can be used for squatting, and benching can be bought for around $200, a bench for about $100, an olympic weight set for another $200, a machine for doing pullups, and pulldowns about $400. A curling bar, and triceps bar for maybe another $50 each. Sometimes by offering employess, facilities to train in, can decrease health insurance premiums.

My wife is very limited equipment wise what she can carry, a gun, and pepper spray, that is good for maybe one shot, no knife, limited calibers, no BUG. The only thing, that I think that isn't prohibited is a bullet proof vest, I am looking into one, that is concealable, and easy to wear. Better firearms training, the proper way to knock on a door of a possibe BG, and working out, none of which the state pays for are other things I would like to look into. She had to buy here own folders, and filing system, to put her cases into. I am saying that departments are putting people's life's in danger, because of the lack of training, the bean counters say that workman's comp premiums or medical retirements, are cheaper. Even with the economy being bad, almost 50% of agents quit, before 6 months, and I think that they have an ad for corrections officers, statewide, on the state of MI website, for the last 5 years. As an example, probation officers, by contract are not suposed to be supervising cases, until they have 6 months experince, they usual time is about 6 weeks, and you get 40 cases, you do not even get scheduled for training on the computer system until your 4th month, and can not carry, until 6 months, even though my wife was qualifed with a .38, G-22, 870 12 ga, and Mini-14, she had tower training, and prisoner transport training. All of which was shot at non-moving paper targets, while standing still.

I am blaming the system, that puts officers in danger, not the officers. It always seems to be about money, and putting a pricetag, on human suffering, tell a pencil pusher, to try and play with their kid with a workman's comp check, or go to the mail box, or walk their dog. Most things happen in the blink of an eye, but last a lot longer, the medical costs alone for 1 workman's comp case, could probably pay for a whole lot of training, but that individual will never get back the time out of their life.

[djw6611]

To the people that keep saying the officer should have just forced the man to the ground:

Why on earth would you want to even try that when you have a taser availiable to you? Your right, the guy had to get to the ground somehow, but if you've got a taser obviously you use that first before trying to physically do it. Now had that officer not had the taser or it didnt work, I think you would have seen him get very mean very fast with that drunk.

Distance is everything. You've got to remember, EVERY physical confrontation you get into with someone as a police officer is basically a fight with an armed person. Your wrestling with someone and you've got a gun a foot or less away, ONE mistake and they've got your gun and your dead, whose the tough guy now? Its a little bit different for a unarmed civilian in a fight because there is usually no firearm present. So if you can distance yourself and use the taser why not?

Sure the officer could have looked like the tough guy and just wrestled the guy until he got him in custody, but try that same routine in the middle of nowhere with no backup for the rest of his carreer and eventually he will run into someone who beats him and the officer doesnt go home again.

[43061]

About a month ago I was dispatched to a verbal altercation in front of a house. Since I happened to be close at the time I got there quickly, but the guy causing the problem had left already. I knew instantly who I was looking for by the description I was given. The Chief had told me to not take this guy on by myself and to call for backup immediately because it had taken four officers to get him in cuffs the last time he was picked up. He also kicked the windows out of a cruiser that time.

I called for backup as I pulled away from the curb and as I turned the corner I met his vehicle coming the other way. Out here in the middle of nowhere my backup officer is the off duty officer (that would be the Chief and he was out of town this particular day). Dispatch was speaking to the Chief Deputy on the radio and it sounded like he wasn’t very fond of driving the fifteen miles over here to help me out, but he said he was on his way.

I turned my cruiser around to pull in behind this guy’s vehicle and he immediately stopped in the middle of the street. He suddenly pulled into a parking space to our right, jumped out of the car, and started walking back towards me. I gave him loud, clear verbal commands to return to his vehicle which he did, but instead of getting in he bent inside his vehicle and started to get something out. I of course am thinking it could be a gun and started to reach for my handgun, but to my complete surprise he pulled a chainsaw out of his car. Fortunately he did not head towards me with it though, he started to walk, and then a sort of run (which you’d have to see my in car video to thoroughly comprehend) away from me. I’m still in my cruiser at this time, so I start following him down the street, he then turns around and starts running at my cruiser. I came to a stop and the guy lays the chainsaw on my hood and takes off running down the street. I got out, removed the chainsaw, and started following him down the street.

He stopped after a couple blocks and was starting to talk to me calmly so I got out and was asking him what had happened earlier. During our conversation I mentioned that he was driving on a suspended license again. That caused him to exclaim, *&^% you, I’m not going to jail today, and off he went running again.

I was born a smart *&^ and it takes effort on my part to not say what goes through my mind at times. I thought, let me get my Dayrunner out and see what would be a better day for you, and started following him again.

There is a bunch more chasing (I still have my cruiser-he’s running). Eventually I had to get out and pursue him on foot. We ran across a cornfield where I easily caught up with him and are now totally alone out there. I have my handgun and he has nothing I can see.

By this time I know there are three officers on their way to help, but I am one on one with this guy. I’m facing a man that is 6 foot tall, but only weighs 140 pounds because of Methamphetamine use. His rap sheet is even longer than he is tall and includes multiple assaults on law enforcement officers.

His fights are legendary and there is little doubt in my mind that he will fight me so I used the one weapon I train with the most often, my verbal skills, and I got him to come with me, this time!

What I am attempting to say here is that this is the kind of guy that we face over and over. How dangerous he is to apprehend depends on how high he is at the time. A Taser is an equalizer when deadly force is not justified and getting too close is likely to become a wrestling match, a wrestling match where the winner gets a handgun.

Just for the record, I never did see those backup officers while all this happened.

[radshop]

Not sure that this thread needs another post, but I just saw the discussion and the video.

I think that 10 or 15 years ago I would have thought the video was great, hilarious, worth sharing, etc. Now I see it and I just feel sad. Sometimes force is necessary and appropriate, but it's sad to see it come to that. It's also sad that in our society, we have so many ridiculous laws that any one of us could find ourselves in a situation where we are on "the wrong side of the law" and a well-intentioned cop who's just doing his job (or a dirty cop who's abusing his authority, for that matter) could be using the taser or the club or the gun on us. I guess I'm way off topic here, but since you can't taser me over the internet I feel pretty safe.

[djw6611]

radshop -

Im not quite sure what the point of your post is. Do you think the drunken moron who got tasered was just some poor man who found himself on the wrong side of the law?

I can honestly say that I have absolutly zero fear of ever finding myself in that mans situation. Do you consider Driving under the influence, refusing to submit to a field sobriety test, and resisting arrest with violence ridiculous laws?

I dont understand what your are trying to say.

However if for some strange reason I ever did find myself being arrested with force, I would prefer it be with a taser which would cause ZERO permanent damage rather than being cracked over the head with a flashlight/baton or tackled to the ground and losing some teeth.

Dont forget here people, that police officer using the taser HAS been shocked with it himself in training/certification, they understand that hey it hurts but its the best option for BOTH parties involved.

[radshop]

djw6611 - Yeah, I'm not sure what my point was either. I pretty much agree with most of your thoughts; mine was a "gut" response to seeing the video and thinking about other things that have more to do with me than with the drunk moron on the video. It would have been better if I'd have either gotten clear about what I wanted to say or not posted at all.

[edit: But if I keep posting random, rambling thoughts I can get me post count higher than yours ]

[NSO_w/_SIG]

Since I am the one who posted the video and started this thread here are my final thoughts!

I told myself not to post on this thread any more because I was getting fed up with some of the responces, but anyway.

The video is funny to me in that seeing that just down right makes me laugh.

I posted it in Tatics and Training forum for two reasons.

1. To show the effects of a taser for those who have never seen one in action.
2. To show how poorly the intial tatics of the officer were, but also to show that once he got seperation and decided to use the taser how effective he used it.


He used it exactly right. He did not "over do it" as some of you suggest.

Bottom line the suspect was wasted he could of easily killed himself, someone else, you, your mother, your daughter whatever............

If you don't agree with taking someone like that off the street there is something wrong with you. ......... No matter how he did it!

[AnthonyRSS]

I can't understand how anyone could possible criticize the officer for shocking the man. His tactics weren't perfect, but he didn't even permanently hurt the man. Now he can go home tomorrow instead of spending a few days in the hospital. And for all you that say you couldn't understand the officer and would be mad if this happened to you, do you drive drunk and resist arrest? If so then you should hope that this would happen to you and you wouldn't be shot or beat to pieces. Hindsight is always 20/20. I'm done.

[9304]

I like the idea of having a Tazer, it could be a valuable assest to any LEO's arsenal. Like 43061 was trying to say, out here, our backup is at MINIMUM 10 minutes away, and were doing it by ourselves. Granted DUI, DUS, and the rest are not "serious" crimes, but we don't get the option of enforcing just the "serious" ones. Every contact can turn "serious"! Don't forget though, that the Tazer is a "less than lethal" weapon. That does not mean that it can't kill or harm if used improperly. My biggest problem with the Tazer though is the fact that in a high stress situation, I don't want to have to worry about which weapon I'm grabbing. We already have OC, Baton, and firearm. A 4th option could be confusing. That, and I don't have enough room on my gun belt to put it on anyway!