U.S. Citizenship

[Mike Irwin]

"Yeah, that really worked out swell for those three hikers who (allegedly) strayed into Iran awhile back. Truth be told, if they hadn't been Americans they probably never would have been arrested."


The United States hasn't had an embassy in Iran, or formal diplomatic relations, since 1979.

With no diplomaggots "in country" (we rely on the Swiss to be our go betweens currently) the point that Sefner was making really doesn't apply in that situation.

[Mike Irwin]

"Very true, but since WWII, not so much. Korea, Grenada, Viet Nam, Lebanon, Chile, I dunno. And in WWII, if Russia hadn't sent 20 million souls into the meat grinder of the Eastern Front, that might not have worked out so well. Just saying."


Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, East Germany... just a few of the European nations where legislators and many others have credited the US for doing the lion's share needed to bring down Communism.

I forget exactly who it was, but a German legislator at the time of reunification said that he expected reunification to happen some day, but seriously doubted that it would ever happen in his lifetime.

[divil]

Detachment Charlie, it's true that the constitution's protection applies to everyone physically in the country - the difference is, as a citizen, you have the right to be here. You can't be kicked out. Believe me, that is a huge difference. Just ask the millions of foreigners tripping over each other to get in.

Actually, by posting on this forum you have asked at least one of them: me I live here on a business visa which lasts 4 or 5 years and allows me to work only for the company that sponsored my visa. So if I leave my job, or loose my job, I loose my right to be in the country. I can't just up and move to another state if I feel like it.

[bob.a]

Your point is well taken, Mr Irwin. It appears that we've done more good than one might have thought.

However, I remember how we screwed the Hungarians after encouraging them to revolt. Then there's the Kurds, who might have been cynical enough not to trust promises from politicians. A shame we let Saddam gas them. As much as I believe we had no business going into Iraq the second time, or at least under the pretexts we used to do so, it's true the planet is better off without Saddam and his sons.

It does seem that we've done good more by example than from active participation.

There might be a lesson in that, perhaps.

[BlueTrain]

They used to teach in civics class that citizenship came with responsibilities, too, but perhaps that isn't taught anymore. But it still does, just the same. At our house we get jury summons, for instance. Paying taxes is a responsibility, however much you argue about that. If you don't like paying property taxes, move into a rented apartment. If you like the tax assessor, you'll love the landlord.

A confusing thing already mentioned is residency and citizenship, along with where you were born. My wife was born in Washington, DC, in the same hospital her father was born in, coincidentally, and we were married almost right across the street (on K Street, as a matter of fact). But none of us ever lived there even though her father actually graduated from high school in the District. Can't do that anymore. But I wonder how many of us consider ourselves to be citizents of a given state where we happen to be living? And I wonder how the states see that, too?

[zukiphile]

One need not be a citizen to give military service, though that can be a path to citizenship.

I can think of many disadvantages of not being a US citizen.

Redundant taxation of your overseas income would be one.

[Mike Irwin]

Is the United States perfect?

Hell no.

Should we expect the United States to be perfect?

Maybe in our fondest dreams.

Should we celebrate the victories that we do get, and the good that we do?

Yes.

[dec41971]

You might think this is funny, but you don't even have to be a legal permanent resident to join the army. And if you do, you become a citizen in a year even if you die, but as long as you applied before hand. In times of war, they accept illegal aliens too. I know they say publicly they don't, but I know quite a few guys who were told sign here sir, never mind that little inconvenience we'll straighten ya up. So there you go. My point? Do you seriously know how many thousands in any of these categories done just that? If you knew, it might surprise you. People want in badly enough means be damned. Thats all you need to know. Why do you think that is? Its infinitely better to be an American than whichever place they came from.

[BlueTrain]

Actually most of the things said here are true of the citizens of any country. The biggest difference is that this is a better place to live than just about any, though some are close (I imagine).

One can also run for public office if you are a citizen but let's not get started on who a citizen is. But like voting, you have to be of a certain age to hold office, although there doesn't seem to be an upper limit on your age.

Another thing about being a citizen that I don't think has been mentioned specifically is that you have a duty of allegience to your country. That has caused problems in the past but that's basically true all around the world and hardly anyone questions it. Some scatter-brains claim they are citizens of the world but that just sounds too other-worldly for me.

None of this is written on stone and concepts of being a citizen seem to come and go over the years, at least if you take the long view. Paul was proud to be a Roman citizen but the concept of citizen was a little vague in Eighteenth Century Germany and Italy, not to be confused with being German or Italian. The whole business of nationalism sort of muddies the water. We have our own ideas here in the states, probably best described as "From sea to shining sea." That about covers it.

[Mr Lucky]

I find it to be kind of a silly question. Citizenship in the US as compared to where else? A developed country or a nondeveloped country?

Obviously this is the greatest nation on earth and why not too many Americans are leaving.

1. We have our Constitution.

2. We are a democratic sociaty. Not pure Democracy but it works.

3. We have freedom of religion

4. We have a lower overall tax rate than other developed nations.

5. We have the right to own real property

6. We have indoor plumbing

7. We have Obama Care (gag me)

8. We have social security, ours is not bad

9. We have a strong military that can beat the crap out of multiple countries at one time or send tham back to the stone ages if needed.

10. We have the right to leave the country

[MTT TL]

Must be doing something right:

[BlueTrain]

Yes, we have a constitution. And you can make it say anything you want.

Yes we have a democracy. And no, it isn't pure. But it works. We really do have elected officials who may or may not be the elite. The self-appointed elite have radio and television shows.

Yes, we have freedom of religion. But it helps to be Christian. In some places it helps a lot. Yet even Louisana elected an Indian, American born of immigrant parents.

Yes, we have a lower overall tax rate than other countries. The government is running on borrowed money and perhaps borrowed time.

Yes, we have a right to own real property. Provided you can afford it but not any property, any where, unless you're rich. Then you can get the government to condemm it so you can buy it.

We don't all have indoor plumbing, which may or may not be relevant.

We have a form of social security but the money being collected in the form of your FICA tax has been spent on other things. It could be worse; it could be in the stock market.

We have a great military. The best equipped and best paid of any in the world, except for their 9mm handguns, of course.

Why would anyone want to leave? This is where people come when they are fleeing something. Where is there left to go?

[Spartan23]

For several years, I have had the same question rolling through my head. So for, it hasn’t bumped into a decent answer, perhaps you can help. Here it is:

Other than potentially being subject to a military draft, what else does United States citizenship give me as an adult male?

Please, do not say the right to vote. The “motor-voter” laws pretty well erased that exclusive privilege. If there was a smidgen of that privilege remaining, the fruits of political action groups, such as ACORN, wiped the slate clean.
So, with all sincerity, I want to know, what makes being an American citizen so special?

In other civilizations, being a citizen carried distinct responsibilities, and guaranteed specific rights. Recall the Greek City States or Rome as examples.

I’m just hoping for a little intelligent discussion here; that’s all.

Thanks for playing.
__________________

Hellenic City States was mention, so i guess that allows me to get involved and "play"...
And basicly, i have to ask... What Hellenic City State yo have in mind? They where all different more or less.

If you mean Sparta, you would be taken at 7 to receive the most hard training ever given to a man, and if you survived, you would have at 30 the right to stay out of the camp and create family. You had to go through the Agoge to be called a citizen in Sparta.
You had the right to vote, but you haven't the right not to vote. You had the right to propose something, but that might sent you straight to the bottom of Apothetai chasm (that is actually called Kheadas), the place where criminals and traitors where thrown. That if you had proposed something "sick" like "arms control"...
Sorry Frank Miller fans, no babies where thrown at Kheadas...

Then you had the right and was also mandatory, to help the state in gathering and preparing food for the children and army, keep the city safe and do other similar stuff as a Citizen Soldier.

After that, there where not much things to do. In Sparta, everything was "moving around" the State. The state was ton the Goverment only, but every Spartan citizen and the Military. Actually the Hellenic meaning of State means "Society of Citizens".

All the other City States where as well more or less militaristic. On some you could be elected as "senator", or organize a coup and become King. Lots of coups and revolutions in Athens. Of course there was the right to own slaves, but i don't think this is of any interest.

So lets sum up what you get as a citizen of a Hellenic City State.

-Mandatory Military Service
-Right to Keep and Bear Arms
-Right to vote. (But in most cases it was treason if you didn't care to vote)
-Mandatory Education.
-Mandatory Responsibility for the people and state.
-Right of property. (Not same at all states. Slaves included here.)
-Right to leave the City State.
-Taxation. (on most City States)


And i can't think of more. Rights of family or professional carrier, or self defense where natural rights and none dared to write them and say that he allows them. Same goes for the most of todays written rights.


So, in todays USA, you have many rights, and not that many responsibilities. Military Service is not mandatory for example. And there are also more real property rights. Basically the only you are asked to do is to pay taxes. You are not called to arms, you are not called to patrol the streets, you are not asked to gather intelligence, you are not asked to give food from your farm for the army nor to prepare food for the troops and basically the State is not demanding much from you as the City States did.

So, what distinct responsibilities, and rights you would like to have as United Sates citizen? For me, that would be very interesting discussion.

[BlueTrain]

Excellent response, Mr. Spartan23. Please do not take these remarks to be representative of other members of this forum.

Everything you say is pretty much true about the United States. We have not been a militaristic nation, not from the beginning, though curiously we may be now more than ever. The armies of WWII were not especially militaristic, being as we like to say, "citizen soldiers."

It is sometimes mistakenly said that American ideals were modeled after those of the Greek states and I disagree. No offence intended. Our ancient heroes were all Roman, like Cinncinatus and Horatius. We may have gotten that tendency from the British, who many of the early colonists were decended from (or were) but who we did not worship. Actually the earliest colonists were from Spain but we like to ignore that fact. Anyhow, our admiration of the Romans was such that some of us decided we should be living in Greek--I mean Roman--temples. They dot the land hereabouts.

Our situation is partly accidental and evolved and partly intentional. And yet like the ancient Greeks, we too worry about the Persians. Nothing is likely to be changing any time soon.

What you say about classic Sparta is partly true about Switzerland, which is often pointed to as a good way to have an army. Yet it is based on conscription and many other details differ from our rosy picture of a perfect land.

And by the way, one of my favorite gods, goddess, actually, is Atropos. Any idea why?

[TXAZ]

Quote Sefner
"Had we encountered any trouble, the US Embassy was our fortress. Should we have been detained we would have had a bunch of... motivated people in the US Government trying to get us home. Not many countries have the sway of the US government when it comes to bringing getting citizens back from captivity."

I've lived in a couple of countries as a non-Govie, working closely with the USG and personnel at the Embassy. There are many misconceptions about American Embassies from citizens. The purpose of the Embassy is to serve the interest of the President's foreign policy, first and foremost. Other than foreign policy, combatting international crime, human aid and international trade / business development are typically several clicks above citizen services on typical days.

If you think the embassy is going to reach out and protect you for common issues in-country, including kidnapping, I would beg to differ. Unless captivity is a result of warfare or crime with a political component, it's probably going to be treated as a local kidnapping crime where the local police will run it through their system. The Embassy will have their local governmental rep contact the local police and stay in-touch. That's about it. The chance of having DEVGRU / a Seal Team come rescue you is statistically pretty low.

The Embassy will help you get a new passport, visit you in jail once a quarter, and help arrange through the Red Cross / Red Crescent to have mortal remains repatriated. If you know some of the personnel well, you can get an invitation to their end of the week party / get together, an especially nice event in highly restrictive locales. Most embassies are understaffed and have pretty tall piles of work to deal with, so other than some consular services, citizen services are not at the top of the food chain.

It might be different if you last name is Clinton or are closely related to a US Congressman, but otherwise, in most countries, you're on pretty much your own.

[publius42]

Other than potentially being subject to a military draft, what else does United States citizenship give me as an adult male?

I'd have to say the best pizza in the world. Sure, we'll serve it to foreigners, but it has to be an empty feeling, knowing that your home country can't make it as yummy.

[BlueTrain]

You could run for public office if you wanted to, if you're old enough. It's all the rage these days.

[Uncle Buck]

To me, my US Citizenship includes:

The right to fly my flag.

The right to brag that I serve 24 years, trying to defend the beliefs of our country. I was shot at, spit upon, beat and lied to. (And Not always in the bars I frequented. )

I can freely get on to the internet and lie my butt off, like so many others.

I have access to some of the best doctor in the world.

I had the opportunity to go to school at no cost to me. I could have gone on to college.

The right to keep and bear arms.

Most of the police forces I have encountered here in the USA are made up of non-corrupt policemen and women.

I can freely write my political representative and complain about them.

The US Postal system works.

The right to earn a decent living.

The United States of America has many things I do not like, but even the things I do not like are much better here than in most the countries I have visited or even lived in. I have not yet found a better place to live.

I lived for twelve years in Korea. It is really a nice and idyllic country (or was, I left in 1995) until you learn the language and start reading the papers and dealing with politicians.

I now take vacations to visit my wife's family in the Philippines. They last between three weeks to a month. The corruption is horrendous and don't even think about laying your hands on a firearm, unless you pay someone off.

The education system in the Philippines is incredible. The parents pay for their kids to go to public schools. The post office in her town never has stamps ("Leave the letter and the money and we'll get some stamps.") The police force consist of two cops, one motorcycle and an attitude of "Whats in it for me?!?"

My wife taught college in the Philippines for the princely sum of $300.00 a month. She had a very good job. She now works for the department of mental health (No I am not her favorite client ) here in Missouri and made more than 10 times that a month.

[BlueTrain]

Say, Mr. Sparta23 (from Athens), if you are still reading this forum, could you please update us on the tax and debt situation in Greece from an insiders perspective. Some of us over here are a little worried about our own problems concerning the same.