Luger Proof Marks

ghengiskhan · January 10, 2016, 04:53 PM

What kind of Luger proof marks are these? I've never seen them.

James K · January 10, 2016, 09:00 PM

I am willing to be educated, but I don't think that is an official proof mark; more likely it is a factory inspection marking. Both those toggles appear to be from the same factory, even very close in production date; what are the top markings?

Later edit: It does look a bit like the Weimar era Reichsadler but not what is usually seen. That location was used, at times, for a factory marking indicating that the breechblock had gone through the hardening process.

Jim

ghengiskhan · January 10, 2016, 09:11 PM

Sorry, I messed up the first image.

No date, toggle is DWM. The proof marks aren't listed in any of my sources, verly perplexing.

Pilot · January 10, 2016, 09:22 PM

Just a wild guess. Maybe re-work proofs from another country?

gyvel · January 10, 2016, 09:39 PM

Quote:

What kind of Luger proof marks are these? I've never seen them.

According to Costanzo's book, they are:

"1934 Simson military surplus parts proof. Noted on 1933 reworks of WWI military and commercial models.
Locations noted: left breech block, right barrel, right receiver."

ghengiskhan · January 10, 2016, 10:12 PM

Oh wow, well thanks a lot, that was very helpful (all of you).

**Mike Irwin** · January 11, 2016, 08:12 AM

I wonder why they would put three on the barrel?

gyvel · January 11, 2016, 09:39 AM

Quote:

I wonder why they would put three on the barrel?

That's not the barrel; That's the barrel extension, aka "bifurcated receiver."

It would indicate that three different procedures or inspections were performed. Remember: We're talking about Germans here.

James K · January 11, 2016, 08:11 PM

The three identical marks is unusual and lends itself to the idea that someone (Simson?) was trying to emulate the earlier markings. The usual three marks are an inspection mark for the receiver as a receiver, one for the assembled pistol, and one (usually larger and/or different) indicating that the pistol passed firing proof. In the Nazi era, the first two would have the same WaA number, the firing proof mark would have an eagle and swastika.

Jim

Jim Watson · January 11, 2016, 08:22 PM

I don't know about this specific case, but a lot of European proof houses have degrees of proof, Provisional, Definitive, and Superior. Sometimes each level has its own proof mark, sometimes they just whack it again.

James K · January 11, 2016, 09:24 PM

Jim, I don't think that was the case here, but with Simson it sort is all bets off; they just did things differently.

The inspection marks (the WaA marks) served two purposes. They showed that the part had passed dimensional checks (gauges) and/or gone through whatever other processes were required for that part, like heat treatment. But they also told anyone "down the line" that that part was OK to be used in assembly. If the part was not appropriately stamped, it would be set aside and not used.

The whole process was labor and time intensive. I am sure the folks who spent the war stamping small parts were darned glad they were not freezing on the Ostfront, but the waste of manpower (not many women in those factories) must have been incrediible. And it was absurd; by WWII, Germany had the most modern precision production equipment in the world; gauging and stamping each part (rather than just spot checking) must have absorbed tens of thousands of people in German industry. Even if some were not suitable for active military service, or were "guest workers" (as the Germans called foreign slave labor) surely they could have been better used elsewhere.

Jim

January 10, 2016, 04:53 PM	#1
ghengiskhan Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Posts: 55	Luger Proof Marks What kind of Luger proof marks are these? I've never seen them.

January 10, 2016, 09:22 PM	#4
Pilot Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2000 Posts: 4,193	Just a wild guess. Maybe re-work proofs from another country? __________________ Pilot

January 11, 2016, 08:12 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,398	I wonder why they would put three on the barrel? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 10, 2016, 09:00 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I am willing to be educated, but I don't think that is an official proof mark; more likely it is a factory inspection marking. Both those toggles appear to be from the same factory, even very close in production date; what are the top markings? Later edit: It does look a bit like the Weimar era Reichsadler but not what is usually seen. That location was used, at times, for a factory marking indicating that the breechblock had gone through the hardening process. Jim

January 10, 2016, 09:11 PM	#3
ghengiskhan Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Posts: 55	Sorry, I messed up the first image. No date, toggle is DWM. The proof marks aren't listed in any of my sources, verly perplexing.

January 10, 2016, 10:12 PM	#6
ghengiskhan Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Posts: 55	Oh wow, well thanks a lot, that was very helpful (all of you).

January 11, 2016, 08:11 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The three identical marks is unusual and lends itself to the idea that someone (Simson?) was trying to emulate the earlier markings. The usual three marks are an inspection mark for the receiver as a receiver, one for the assembled pistol, and one (usually larger and/or different) indicating that the pistol passed firing proof. In the Nazi era, the first two would have the same WaA number, the firing proof mark would have an eagle and swastika. Jim

January 11, 2016, 08:22 PM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,570	I don't know about this specific case, but a lot of European proof houses have degrees of proof, Provisional, Definitive, and Superior. Sometimes each level has its own proof mark, sometimes they just whack it again.

January 11, 2016, 09:24 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Jim, I don't think that was the case here, but with Simson it sort is all bets off; they just did things differently. The inspection marks (the WaA marks) served two purposes. They showed that the part had passed dimensional checks (gauges) and/or gone through whatever other processes were required for that part, like heat treatment. But they also told anyone "down the line" that that part was OK to be used in assembly. If the part was not appropriately stamped, it would be set aside and not used. The whole process was labor and time intensive. I am sure the folks who spent the war stamping small parts were darned glad they were not freezing on the Ostfront, but the waste of manpower (not many women in those factories) must have been incrediible. And it was absurd; by WWII, Germany had the most modern precision production equipment in the world; gauging and stamping each part (rather than just spot checking) must have absorbed tens of thousands of people in German industry. Even if some were not suitable for active military service, or were "guest workers" (as the Germans called foreign slave labor) surely they could have been better used elsewhere. Jim