A Challenge to the 870 Express Bashers.... - Page 3

mathman · May 21, 2010, 09:46 AM

We're not all saying that the 870 is junk. My brother has one that he bought in the early 90s that is fantastic. Of course back then it was more like a Wingmaster with a dull finish than the way they are making them today.

What some of us ARE saying is that there is a fair number of people who are having issues with new 870 expresses. It may very well be that we are shooting cheap ammo through the gun (although my Benelli chews up and spits out the cheap ammo just fine).

But come on...just admit it...please...870 expresses are not as good out of the box as they used to be.

Pahoo · May 21, 2010, 12:00 PM

Quote:

But come on...just admit it...please...870 expresses are not as good out of the box as they used to be.

Exactly and if these Expresses keep going in that direction then and only them can we truly call them junk. I certainly hope that Remington is taking note.

Yes, I do expect every new firearm, out of the box, to function perfectly as designed that is what I paid for.

Be Safe !!!

JNewell · May 21, 2010, 12:14 PM

Quote:

But come on...just admit it...please...870 expresses are not as good out of the box as they used to be.

Actually, my hunch is that the correct statement is: There was a period when 870 expresses were not as good out of the box as they used to be, but Remington has fixed those problems.

Many/most of the production specs have been changed for the better (no more dimples; going back to the ball detent on the magazine cap; eliminating the J-lock, for examples). The rough chamber defects and other manufacturing problems have been addressed. Remember that there are a lot of used guns changing hands and that distributor inventory means that guns sold today may have been produced a year, two or more ago.

jmr40 · May 21, 2010, 01:58 PM

For the record, I've never had an issue with any Express. Old or new. I don't personally know anyone who has ever had a problem. I read about the occasional Express problem on the internet, but they are usually cosmetic, or just a cleaning issue. My concern is that the Mossberg boys refuse to admit that their guns occasionally have issues as well.

The problem is not Remington, Mossberg, or any other manufacturer. Look in the mirror to find the problem. Remington or anyone else could build better guns, but when they do, we as consumers leave them on the shelves to save a few bucks. If Mossberg finds a way to make their gun $5 cheaper, Remington is forced to find a way to save $5 to be competetive.

At one time gun manufacturers were be in a race to produce the best gun they could. When Remington came up with an advancement that made their gun better, Mossberg had to match that to compete. The trend today is to see who can produce the cheapest gun they can make. They do that because that is what we are buying. Not just shotguns. Look at all the new models of handguns and rifles introduced in the last 10 years. Almost all of them have been made to be as inexpensive as possible.

And then we complain when they are not perfect.

MAX100 · May 21, 2010, 02:53 PM

Quote:

The trend today is to see who can produce the cheapest gun they can make. They do that because that is what we are buying. Not just shotguns. Look at all the new models of handguns and rifles introduced in the last 10 years. Almost all of them have been made to be as inexpensive as possible.

Remington has a QC problem plain and simple and they know about it. The QC problem is minor but it's there and it cost the consumer & dealers extra time and money. Mossberg had very rough start with the 930SPX, QC sucked. They have made good on the first bad ones they put out and QC now is much better.

Remington has ignored the chamber problems. One of the the reasons is because of it's loyal customers you find in this thread. Mossberg has a somewhat loyal following but nothing near Remington's.

GC

Dave McC · May 21, 2010, 10:16 PM

No takers yet.

Maybe Max will agree here. The glitches I hear about but have not seen include....

Failure to remove the factory preservative and otherwise follow the directions in the manual. Easy fix.

Rough chambers, both in the chamber itself and on the leading edge where a burr may impede feeding. 5 minutes to fix with the right tools.

Rare but documented cases of the shells latches being bent enough that feeding is iffy. IMO, warranty work or place it in the hands of a good smith. Not for kitchen table smithery.

Cheap, steel base ammo like the Winchester generic loads or Gun Clubs. For the record, some of my Wingmasters choke up on Gun Clubs. Like butter with other cases, but I haven't tried the Winchester bulkpacks.

NOTE: ANY 870 shucks smoother with a drop,just one, of oil applied to each action bar just in front of the receiver and then cycled a few times before a shooting session. Try it.

Finally, one has to consider the level of folks buying entry level shotguns. Some lack experience, either with shooting in general or pumps in particular.

And some may just be dense. It's not for me to say.

Anyway, I'll be at PGC tomorrow around 2PM. Let me know you're coming and I'll bring tools, cash and Frankenstein. Look for the big old guy on the 5 stand course with a plantation hat with a 50 straight patch on it and a big grin.....

MAX100 · May 21, 2010, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Maybe Max will agree here. The glitches I hear about but have not seen include....

Failure to remove the factory preservative and otherwise follow the directions in the manual. Easy fix.

Rough chambers, both in the chamber itself and on the leading edge where a burr may impede feeding. 5 minutes to fix with the right tools.

Rare but documented cases of the shells latches being bent enough that feeding is iffy. IMO, warranty work or place it in the hands of a good smith. Not for kitchen table smithery.

Cheap, steel base ammo like the Winchester generic loads or Gun Clubs. For the record, some of my Wingmasters choke up on Gun Clubs. Like butter with other cases, but I haven't tried the Winchester bulkpacks.

I agree with all of it and there are a few chambers that are a little tight and need to be opened up a few thousands with a hone. The QC problems are minor but it's a big issue to some who don't know much about shotguns. They shouldn't have to correct problems anyway.

Will also add the MIM extractors rarely give problems.

GC

LanceOregon · May 22, 2010, 03:50 AM

Quote:

You have this unnatural fascination with the 870.

This brings back memories of my bitter divorce with my ex many years ago. She testified in court that my son's close attachment to my father ( my son's grandfather and godfather ) was unnatural. That a young boy should be close to his grandfather was inappropriate, in her opinion.

Both your remark here and hers come across as being rather absurd.

.

rc601962 · May 22, 2010, 10:04 AM

What does a shotgun have to do with your failed marriage? Sounds like you were using the kid as a bargaining chip.

It is hopeless to argue with those that worship at the altar of Big Green. They have drunk the koolaid.

I took my coworkers 870 in for the same problem last week. I took it to Bolsa Gunsmithing in Huntington Beach. They had to recut the chamber and polish it just like mine. No charge. Warranty work. They said they see this all the time.

You shouldn't have to even hone a new gun. It should work out of the box. Even if (WHICH IT IS NOT) it were some sort of problem with the preservative they use in the gun, how stupid is Remington for using something that would cause this type of problem with functioning?

Ex: I just bought a new stereo. The guy behind the counter told me to remove all the peanut butter from inside the unit and rewire the electronics and it will work fine. No problem.

jlv08 · May 22, 2010, 10:21 AM

It's fair to say that with any new shotgun that there is a break in period and during that period, it's possible that a glitch, or glitches will arise.

I also agree that there is the "newbie" factor that causes glitches that aren't really glitches, but just someone who is not informed,trained in firearms basic use, and or not being mechanically inclined.

I have, in the past and will probably in the present as well in the future ,help repair someones shotgun and will tell you that the problems that cause malfunctions are, neglect, not being familiar with the gun,and or minor parts failure, which has, for the most part, been rare.

Sticking chambers, rusting finishes, ammo sensitivity glitches in a new gun (re. 870 Express) can be attributed to lack of attention to detail by the manufacturer.

I'm not trying to slam the Express because I know some guys who deer hunt here in Tidewater , VA. and would scrap over someone calling the Express junk.

I also know some guys who would call the Express junk and would argue loudly with someone saying that they are good ,reliable shotguns.

Go figure.

Dave McC · May 22, 2010, 10:27 AM

Thanks, Max. I agree, there shouldn't be a problem. As for the extractors, only problems I've seen were crud related.

"Unnatural fascination"?

I've owned and operated 870s for over 50 years. I wish everything I have owned worked as well. Now folks with a lot less time on them and a much lower round count report all sorts of stuff.

I want to know what's really going on.

JNewell · May 22, 2010, 10:54 AM

Quote:

I agree with all of it and there are a few chambers that are a little tight and need to be opened up a few thousands with a hone. The QC problems are minor but it's a big issue to some who don't know much about shotguns. They shouldn't have to correct problems anyway.

I have no proof that this is the case, but I wonder how many of those sticky extraction instances result from poor cleaning after using plastic shells?

Quote:

Will also add the MIM extractors rarely give problems.

Yes, and if you watch the normal feed/extract cycle, it's obvious why.

Gas guns sometimes break extractors - but it is very, very rare with pumps.

jmortimer · May 22, 2010, 11:27 AM

The 870 Zombies are at it again. The new production Express 870 has issues but why let reality get in the way. Memo to the Zombies, the problems are real and can be resolved but there are problems. As usual MAX100 got it right. Get over it Zombies.

rc601962 · May 22, 2010, 11:59 AM

jmortimer, the 870 is a religion to these guys. You are telling them their god is not real.

The 870 is a great gun once it is made to run properly. Unfortunately, Remington is putting out complete cr*p 870 Express guns. It is a DIY project. Think of it as a kit gun. It is not the stupid preservative or cleaning. The chambers are rough and screwed up.

2500ak · May 22, 2010, 01:32 PM

I'm not real fond of the newer 870's. The saving grace of the old ones was that they were milled well and built very solidly.

Compared to other shotguns they have a pretty crude action. Single extractor, large locking lug etc... Its eloquent but inelegant. That action was designed to better work with the 2 3/4in round but anything bigger makes them feel sticky imo.

The old ones were so durable that it justified the weight and the simplicity. Once the reliability is even called into question is isn't worth it any more.

I've got a great old 870 Wingmaster and a Winchester 120. As cool as the 870 is, the Winchester is smoother, lighter, and I've never had a problem with either of them.

mathman · May 22, 2010, 01:56 PM

Quote:

No takers yet.

Gee, I'll get right on a plane and meet you there in a few hours...

You know...with the exception of the aluminum frame (which gives it less tolerance for abuse) the Winchester 1300 is a waaaay better gun than the 870...old or new. Never felt a smoother action...and this is from someone who has fired THOUSANDS of rounds through one without ONE SINGLE MALFUNCTION. I never had to worry about whether it was clean or not...or if the chamber has been polished, etc. It's a darn shame that they don't make the 1300 any longer.

Now excuse me while I go put on my flame suit.

colostomyclown · May 22, 2010, 03:17 PM

1300 is probably my favorite too, but i go with the Mossbergs for overall. three are great guns.

jlv08 · May 22, 2010, 03:56 PM

Being an obsessive/compulsive type, I've been thru a few shotguns.

Back in the late eighties I had the joy of owning a fifties vintage Remington 870 that was as plain jane as you can get in a shotgun and lugged that thing everywhere I hunted back then.

I remember just how well that gun balanced and pulled up to my shoulder. I never had a malf. and it ate evrything I shot thru it. I traded for a semi and have regretted it to this day.

That gun was special and it introduced me to the folly of trading something away that I dang well should have kept.

I have not picked one up after that that even felt like that gun.

I can fully understand the love that 870 owners have for the 870 and, if the good Lord was to smile on me and let me get that gun back, I'd fill a void in my heart that I've felt since I foolishly let that one go.

The only gun I have that remotely felt like that gun is one that I have, a J.C. Higgins Model 20, which I love dearly, but it ain't that old 870 I had back then.

Man, the memories....

jmr40 · May 22, 2010, 05:58 PM

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410605

This can't be true. Only 870's have issues.

jmr40 · May 22, 2010, 07:09 PM

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...?f=58&t=197762

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.p...c=16062.0;wap2

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...8204942AANkRC2

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...t=42719&page=2

http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=199275

More Mossberg "issues"

I'm not saying either gun is a bad choice. It still comes down to the features you prefer.

I just spent the better part of an hour googling "Mossberg 500 malfunctions" and "Remington 870 malfunctions". I was plesantly surprised to find a great many of the responses for both guns noted that their owners had never had a malfunction in either gun.

Yes, I did find responses indicating issues with the 870 as well as the 500. Every single 870 issue dealt with sticky chambers and ejection problems. This is a cleaning issue as has already been discussed.

We are talking about the least expensive budget shotguns on the market. Any of them are going to have issues as long as the manufacturers are trying to build the cheapest gun they can get away with.

rc601962 · May 22, 2010, 09:22 PM

Jmr40, it is not a cleaning issue. My gunsmith had to re cut the chamber on two of these for me.

It doesn't matter if these are low priced guns. I give Remington $300. They should give me a gun that works out of the box or notify me in advance.

zip22 · May 23, 2010, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmr40

This can't be true. Only 870's have issues

now THAT is a prime example of a straw man.

jmr40 · May 23, 2010, 06:56 AM

Then according to your logic Mossberg should do the same. There are plenty of examples of Mossberg QC issues. But according to you and a few others Remingtons are the only shotguns with problems.

Your gunsmith CHOSE to cut you a new chamber and charge you for the work. It is pretty well documented that a good chamber cleaning fixes the problem.

JNewell · May 23, 2010, 08:05 AM

What's even funnier is the Benelli M4 owners who trash every other make/model and act as if the M4 never has, ehhhm, "issues," but if you hunt around you can find where they do their complaining. Considering the cost of that gun, you might be quite surprised!

Dave McC · May 23, 2010, 09:20 AM

Let's leave terms like "Zombies" out of this, lest I have to put on my Moderator's hat.Personal attacks are forbidden under the rules we ALL agreed to when we signed up here.

What I decry is the mindset that says.....

"I had a problem with my Express so they are all complete junk....''

My Beretta O/U is the most expensive firearm here. I got it after long searching for the one clays gun that would do something my cherished 870s did not. I shot it well from Day One and love it.

But from Day One, the inertia trigger would occasionally not reset for the second barrel,especially when using my creampuff 7/8 oz loads. I didn't jump on the Net telling all who would listen all 686s were junk. I just lived with it until things smoothed out. And they did.

BTW, the price of a White Onyx then and now is about 5-6X that of an Express.

All shotguns should work right out of the box. Some do not, and need minor tweaks or adjustments. Sometimes so do the owners.

Still no takers.

I never expected to have to buy any Expresses. I did expect to get a PM saying someone is havin trouble with theirs and asking me to take a look....

May 21, 2010, 09:46 AM	#51
mathman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,531	We're not all saying that the 870 is junk. My brother has one that he bought in the early 90s that is fantastic. Of course back then it was more like a Wingmaster with a dull finish than the way they are making them today. What some of us ARE saying is that there is a fair number of people who are having issues with new 870 expresses. It may very well be that we are shooting cheap ammo through the gun (although my Benelli chews up and spits out the cheap ammo just fine). But come on...just admit it...please...870 expresses are not as good out of the box as they used to be. __________________ Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.

May 21, 2010, 01:58 PM	#54
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	For the record, I've never had an issue with any Express. Old or new. I don't personally know anyone who has ever had a problem. I read about the occasional Express problem on the internet, but they are usually cosmetic, or just a cleaning issue. My concern is that the Mossberg boys refuse to admit that their guns occasionally have issues as well. The problem is not Remington, Mossberg, or any other manufacturer. Look in the mirror to find the problem. Remington or anyone else could build better guns, but when they do, we as consumers leave them on the shelves to save a few bucks. If Mossberg finds a way to make their gun $5 cheaper, Remington is forced to find a way to save $5 to be competetive. At one time gun manufacturers were be in a race to produce the best gun they could. When Remington came up with an advancement that made their gun better, Mossberg had to match that to compete. The trend today is to see who can produce the cheapest gun they can make. They do that because that is what we are buying. Not just shotguns. Look at all the new models of handguns and rifles introduced in the last 10 years. Almost all of them have been made to be as inexpensive as possible. And then we complain when they are not perfect.

May 21, 2010, 10:16 PM	#56
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	No takers yet. Maybe Max will agree here. The glitches I hear about but have not seen include.... Failure to remove the factory preservative and otherwise follow the directions in the manual. Easy fix. Rough chambers, both in the chamber itself and on the leading edge where a burr may impede feeding. 5 minutes to fix with the right tools. Rare but documented cases of the shells latches being bent enough that feeding is iffy. IMO, warranty work or place it in the hands of a good smith. Not for kitchen table smithery. Cheap, steel base ammo like the Winchester generic loads or Gun Clubs. For the record, some of my Wingmasters choke up on Gun Clubs. Like butter with other cases, but I haven't tried the Winchester bulkpacks. NOTE: ANY 870 shucks smoother with a drop,just one, of oil applied to each action bar just in front of the receiver and then cycled a few times before a shooting session. Try it. Finally, one has to consider the level of folks buying entry level shotguns. Some lack experience, either with shooting in general or pumps in particular. And some may just be dense. It's not for me to say. Anyway, I'll be at PGC tomorrow around 2PM. Let me know you're coming and I'll bring tools, cash and Frankenstein. Look for the big old guy on the 5 stand course with a plantation hat with a 50 straight patch on it and a big grin.....

May 22, 2010, 10:04 AM	#59
rc601962 Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Posts: 43	What does a shotgun have to do with your failed marriage? Sounds like you were using the kid as a bargaining chip. It is hopeless to argue with those that worship at the altar of Big Green. They have drunk the koolaid. I took my coworkers 870 in for the same problem last week. I took it to Bolsa Gunsmithing in Huntington Beach. They had to recut the chamber and polish it just like mine. No charge. Warranty work. They said they see this all the time. You shouldn't have to even hone a new gun. It should work out of the box. Even if (WHICH IT IS NOT) it were some sort of problem with the preservative they use in the gun, how stupid is Remington for using something that would cause this type of problem with functioning? Ex: I just bought a new stereo. The guy behind the counter told me to remove all the peanut butter from inside the unit and rewire the electronics and it will work fine. No problem.

May 22, 2010, 10:21 AM	#60
jlv08 Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2008 Posts: 122	It's fair to say that with any new shotgun that there is a break in period and during that period, it's possible that a glitch, or glitches will arise. I also agree that there is the "newbie" factor that causes glitches that aren't really glitches, but just someone who is not informed,trained in firearms basic use, and or not being mechanically inclined. I have, in the past and will probably in the present as well in the future ,help repair someones shotgun and will tell you that the problems that cause malfunctions are, neglect, not being familiar with the gun,and or minor parts failure, which has, for the most part, been rare. Sticking chambers, rusting finishes, ammo sensitivity glitches in a new gun (re. 870 Express) can be attributed to lack of attention to detail by the manufacturer. I'm not trying to slam the Express because I know some guys who deer hunt here in Tidewater , VA. and would scrap over someone calling the Express junk. I also know some guys who would call the Express junk and would argue loudly with someone saying that they are good ,reliable shotguns. Go figure.

May 22, 2010, 10:27 AM	#61
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Thanks, Max. I agree, there shouldn't be a problem. As for the extractors, only problems I've seen were crud related. "Unnatural fascination"? I've owned and operated 870s for over 50 years. I wish everything I have owned worked as well. Now folks with a lot less time on them and a much lower round count report all sorts of stuff. I want to know what's really going on.

May 22, 2010, 11:27 AM	#63
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	The 870 Zombies are at it again. The new production Express 870 has issues but why let reality get in the way. Memo to the Zombies, the problems are real and can be resolved but there are problems. As usual MAX100 got it right. Get over it Zombies.

May 22, 2010, 11:59 AM	#64
rc601962 Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Posts: 43	jmortimer, the 870 is a religion to these guys. You are telling them their god is not real. The 870 is a great gun once it is made to run properly. Unfortunately, Remington is putting out complete cr*p 870 Express guns. It is a DIY project. Think of it as a kit gun. It is not the stupid preservative or cleaning. The chambers are rough and screwed up.

May 22, 2010, 01:32 PM	#65
2500ak Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2010 Posts: 132	I'm not real fond of the newer 870's. The saving grace of the old ones was that they were milled well and built very solidly. Compared to other shotguns they have a pretty crude action. Single extractor, large locking lug etc... Its eloquent but inelegant. That action was designed to better work with the 2 3/4in round but anything bigger makes them feel sticky imo. The old ones were so durable that it justified the weight and the simplicity. Once the reliability is even called into question is isn't worth it any more. I've got a great old 870 Wingmaster and a Winchester 120. As cool as the 870 is, the Winchester is smoother, lighter, and I've never had a problem with either of them.

May 22, 2010, 03:17 PM	#67
colostomyclown Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2009 Posts: 613	1300 is probably my favorite too, but i go with the Mossbergs for overall. three are great guns.

May 22, 2010, 03:56 PM	#68
jlv08 Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2008 Posts: 122	Being an obsessive/compulsive type, I've been thru a few shotguns. Back in the late eighties I had the joy of owning a fifties vintage Remington 870 that was as plain jane as you can get in a shotgun and lugged that thing everywhere I hunted back then. I remember just how well that gun balanced and pulled up to my shoulder. I never had a malf. and it ate evrything I shot thru it. I traded for a semi and have regretted it to this day. That gun was special and it introduced me to the folly of trading something away that I dang well should have kept. I have not picked one up after that that even felt like that gun. I can fully understand the love that 870 owners have for the 870 and, if the good Lord was to smile on me and let me get that gun back, I'd fill a void in my heart that I've felt since I foolishly let that one go. The only gun I have that remotely felt like that gun is one that I have, a J.C. Higgins Model 20, which I love dearly, but it ain't that old 870 I had back then. Man, the memories....

May 22, 2010, 05:58 PM	#69
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410605 This can't be true. Only 870's have issues.

May 22, 2010, 07:09 PM	#70
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...?f=58&t=197762 http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.p...c=16062.0;wap2 http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...8204942AANkRC2 http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...t=42719&page=2 http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=199275 More Mossberg "issues" I'm not saying either gun is a bad choice. It still comes down to the features you prefer. I just spent the better part of an hour googling "Mossberg 500 malfunctions" and "Remington 870 malfunctions". I was plesantly surprised to find a great many of the responses for both guns noted that their owners had never had a malfunction in either gun. Yes, I did find responses indicating issues with the 870 as well as the 500. Every single 870 issue dealt with sticky chambers and ejection problems. This is a cleaning issue as has already been discussed. We are talking about the least expensive budget shotguns on the market. Any of them are going to have issues as long as the manufacturers are trying to build the cheapest gun they can get away with.

May 22, 2010, 09:22 PM	#71
rc601962 Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Posts: 43	Jmr40, it is not a cleaning issue. My gunsmith had to re cut the chamber on two of these for me. It doesn't matter if these are low priced guns. I give Remington $300. They should give me a gun that works out of the box or notify me in advance.

May 23, 2010, 06:56 AM	#73
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	Then according to your logic Mossberg should do the same. There are plenty of examples of Mossberg QC issues. But according to you and a few others Remingtons are the only shotguns with problems. Your gunsmith CHOSE to cut you a new chamber and charge you for the work. It is pretty well documented that a good chamber cleaning fixes the problem.

May 23, 2010, 08:05 AM	#74
JNewell Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2000 Posts: 1,092	What's even funnier is the Benelli M4 owners who trash every other make/model and act as if the M4 never has, ehhhm, "issues," but if you hunt around you can find where they do their complaining. Considering the cost of that gun, you might be quite surprised!

May 23, 2010, 09:20 AM	#75
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Let's leave terms like "Zombies" out of this, lest I have to put on my Moderator's hat.Personal attacks are forbidden under the rules we ALL agreed to when we signed up here. What I decry is the mindset that says..... "I had a problem with my Express so they are all complete junk....'' My Beretta O/U is the most expensive firearm here. I got it after long searching for the one clays gun that would do something my cherished 870s did not. I shot it well from Day One and love it. But from Day One, the inertia trigger would occasionally not reset for the second barrel,especially when using my creampuff 7/8 oz loads. I didn't jump on the Net telling all who would listen all 686s were junk. I just lived with it until things smoothed out. And they did. BTW, the price of a White Onyx then and now is about 5-6X that of an Express. All shotguns should work right out of the box. Some do not, and need minor tweaks or adjustments. Sometimes so do the owners. Still no takers. I never expected to have to buy any Expresses. I did expect to get a PM saying someone is havin trouble with theirs and asking me to take a look....