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Old June 28, 2013, 09:14 AM   #1
grizmt
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9mm spec HELP!

Good morning y'all!
I'm a newbie at reloading so please excuse my ignorance, I'm trying to be careful so as to NOT blow off my wife's hands. Her mouth, well that's another subject, I guess it gets shot off enough as it is but I digress.

Anyway, I've got a Hornady LNL progressive and I'm trying to load Rainer 147 gr. HP bullets with Titegroup powder.
According to the Lyman book the load should be from 2.5-2.8 following Rainer's suggestion that you use cast bullet specs. I'm getting 2.6 pretty consistently with the case activated powder loader.
I'm having a problem with bullet seat depth though. I adjust the seating die on a bullet to the exact OAL stated and ran a few dummies through. They were all different. After going through this I decided I'd investigate the bullets themselves and while they're supposed to weight 147 gr. they were all over the place from 141-146 gr. which leads me to believe that they're also different in length as well.
It also kind of kills off doing a fast weight check of a loaded bullet.

They're to be used in a Sig P250 compact and for target practice until I get more experience at this.

Am I missing something? I can't keep adjusting seating depth from bullet to bullet, it'd take a year and a day to load a box of 50!
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Old June 28, 2013, 10:29 AM   #2
higgite
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As you have discovered, it's not uncommon for bullet length to vary within the same lot, even when measured to the ogive instead of the tip. This is what I do when setting pistol OAL. I first seat one round at my target OAL, say 1.13" for 9mm, 115 grain, FMJ. Then I give it the plunk test. If it passes, then I seat 5 more rounds and measure their OALs. If any are longer than my target, I take the longest one and readjust the seating die to seat that round at my target OAL. Then I start loading away. That way, I'm fairly certain that the longest round in that batch won't be into the lands. After loading a batch, I give them all the plunk test to be sure. Only rarely do I find any rounds that are too long. When I do, I just adjust the die and seat them a little deeper. I repeat this process for every new box of bullets.

I recently ran through that procedure and wound up having to set max OAL to 1.10" for a new (to me) brand of RN FMJ bullets. Other more experienced loaders might have a better idea. I'm open to suggestions.
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Old June 28, 2013, 11:57 AM   #3
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Problem with doing it the way you described is that as you seat the bullet deeper, you increase the pressure of an already high pressure round. This will lead to inconsistency in accuracy, pressure, recoil, wear on gun, etc.

Usually there will be some variation between brass headstamp and bullets themselves. I typically set my depth based on what I've seen work well for me in the past and average out 10 cases to see if they're there.
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Old June 28, 2013, 01:27 PM   #4
jwrowland77
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9mm spec HELP!

I shoot Win FMJ-RN. I set my seating/crimping die and forgot about it. I measure the first 10 and they are all within my regs every time. I've only loaded these for mine, set the OAL last year, and its still sitting the same as it was when I set. I wouldn't fiddle with it to much once you have it set.

My philosophy, Set it and forget it (for the most part.)
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Old June 28, 2013, 01:36 PM   #5
Wreck-n-Crew
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IMHO loading 147grn bullets are more of a challenge that I would have cared to take on my first times out.


From what I have Gathered your powder load is light and I would guess the OAL data may be a bit on the long side.

Every time I have seen 9mm load data with an OAL of anything above 1.070, feeding problems occurred if the data was followed.

So search hard and deep for a good min OAL and Max OAL from people who load the rainer 147grn lead safes.
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Last edited by Wreck-n-Crew; June 28, 2013 at 01:43 PM.
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Old June 28, 2013, 01:38 PM   #6
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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There's no mention of checking your brass for their overall length prior to there reloading. There is an absolute need to periodically check and or trim a lot of brass you intend to reload before running them thru your press. That procedure applies too rifle as well as pistol for single stage as well as progressive machines. Some here would say its not needed for semi-auto pistol or they don't see the need too in any non magnum cartridge. But what they chose to do for themselves doesn't mean the procedure shouldn't be followed. As far as different seating depths seen. You can expect to see that happening in many progressive press's. Speed in reloading using a consumer's progressive press. Does have its draw backs. It's called "Acceptable Tolerances" by the tools manufacture. My advice: for target practice a progressive press's product is fine and dandy. For a round you have to rely on for self defense. Use a tight single stage bench press for that purpose. Or purchase factory made shells >not because of there reliability but for liability reasons.


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Old June 28, 2013, 01:51 PM   #7
BigJimP
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The weight variation on Rainier bullets you're seeing is a common issue on Rainier bullets.../ they're electroplated...and where they are in the bath - they each get a little more or a little less plating....and they can be a little irregular in shape....

Berry's is a plated bullet ( thicker plating ) and a lot more consistent in weight. Montana Gold is a true jacketed bullet ..and way more consistent as well.

However, you can't weigh a finished cartridge with any degree of accuracy for it to tell you anything ...there is too much variation in the case weight...and the bullet weight.../ so weighing a finished round ( to check the powder drop - is why guys think they want to do it ... ---- won't tell you anything useful ).

Rainier tells you to use lead data ...for their bullets...so pick something in the mid to lower end of the range and use it.
----------
On overall length...regardless of the length of a bullet....your press seats it in the case establishing the overall length of the round ...it shouldn't vary by the length of the bullet ---- because the seating die is at a fixed height / and the case holder moves up and into the die ....and as it bottoms out / it establishes the overall length. If a bullet is a little longer...the press just sets it into the case a little deeper...if bullet is a little shorter ..the press doesn't set it quite as deep.

So it shouldn't matter...in terms of the rounds fitting into the barrel's chamber. Personally, I "case gague" every finished round...before I box them up anyway ...and if they drop in and out of the case gague, they should be fine.
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But changing bullets ....go to Berry's or Montana Gold - will probably give you better groups.
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You should do what you want....but I don't see any point in reloading 147 gr bullets anyway .....115gr or 124 gr are fine for range practice. You should be buying your "Defense" ammo and not reloading it anyway, in my opinion. But while I carry 147 gr in my 9mm, if I choose to carry a 9mm, I don't shoot much 147 gr at the range...compared to 6 or 8 boxes a week typically of 115 gr for me.
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Old June 28, 2013, 02:01 PM   #8
BigD_in_FL
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From Rainier:

Quote:
If you only have access to traditionally jacketed load data, we recommend a starting powder charge directly between the listed minimum and maximum load, and you may use published load data found in reputable reloading manuals.
From Hodgdon:

Quote:
147 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Titegroup .355" 1.100" 3.2 855 22,500 CUP 3.6 929 27,500 CUP
where 1.1 is OAL 3.2 is minimum and 3.6 (powder charge) is maximum for jacketed. Combining the two resources you should be using 3.2 grains at 1.1

Lyman and The ABCs are nice, but the latest and greatest data ALWAYS comes from the makers of the products as their liable butts are on the line
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Old June 28, 2013, 02:29 PM   #9
higgite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostyanj
Problem with doing it the way you described is that as you seat the bullet deeper, you increase the pressure of an already high pressure round. This will lead to inconsistency in accuracy, pressure, recoil, wear on gun, etc.

Usually there will be some variation between brass headstamp and bullets themselves. I typically set my depth based on what I've seen work well for me in the past and average out 10 cases to see if they're there.
Very good point, kostyanj. I had some consternation along those same lines, but resolved it to my satisfaction. The reason the bullets were in the lands at my normal 1.13" seating depth was because the new (to me) bullets have a "fatter" ogive than my previous stash. They are actually .026" shorter on average than the previous bullets I used and they end up seated no deeper into the case, they just don't stick out as far. I also use mid-range loads, worked up from minimum to a load that reliably runs my pistol. Knowing all that, I still checked the first few rounds for overpressure signs and found none. I left out a few details in my first post, for brevity, but thanks for bringing it up. It is definitely an important factor to consider.
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Old June 28, 2013, 03:01 PM   #10
grizmt
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I checked Hodgdon's and Rainer load data figuring they might differ from Lyman. Rainer has no load data and Hodgdon didn't have a listing for titegroup/cast bullet in 147gr, and I'm too new to wing it.

The reason I'm using 147's is I happen to have a box sitting here and wanted to get the press running but it seems that it may just be a bit too big of a bite to chew for the first few times.

I do have a few boxes of factory ammo for protection so I don't have to hand load those.
Off to the web for bullets! Now I'm wishing I'd bought some of the Montana Golds before we moved, they were 13 miles from the house.
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Old June 28, 2013, 03:09 PM   #11
BigJimP
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You can still buy Montana Gold bullets....they have a good website...and they ship free.

Their orders are a little backed up ....but day to day ....they usually have some bullets that are available - just be patient / and order a case when you can ( 4,000 to a case of 9mm 115 gr bullets). I just got a case last week.

The reason you're seeing so little data on reloading 147gr bullets vs 115 or 124gr bullets in 9mm....is hardly anyone loads 147gr bullets in 9mm ( for range, practice, competition, etc ) ....so you'll just find more data for 115gr or 124gr. Personally, I trust the powder co's data ...more than the bullet companies.

Montana Gold is a small company - and they are not really set up for "will call" orders. I've tried it when I've been in Kalispell ...and it just isn't worth it - they really want you to use the website so they prioritize the orders and keep their machines running optimally. They're really busy right now....trying to keep up. But there used to be a pretty good sporting goods shop - real near the plant / that used to have some inventory ( right on the main drag as you come into town from the south)...on the right / I forget the name.

Last edited by BigJimP; June 28, 2013 at 03:15 PM.
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Old June 28, 2013, 03:17 PM   #12
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Rainier Ballistics loading data..../ its just general info....

http://www.rainierballistics.com/loaddata.php
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Old June 28, 2013, 05:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
There's no mention of checking your brass for their overall length prior to there reloading. There is an absolute need to periodically check and or trim a lot of brass you intend to reload before running them thru your press.
While brass does need to be checked for length (or should be) it is not going to affect the COAL as none of the setting have anything to do with length of brass.

The problem is that not only do the bullets weigh differently, the ogive (curve area) als o has variations and depending on where your bullet seater contacts the bullet its going to change the searing depth (even on high quality bullets)

The critial issue is not to go below MINIMUM COAL in 9mm (other guns its not an issue). While you can go some with 9mm the pressure increase can be so dramatic as to cause a high pressure spike above the allowance.


My solution has been to accept the fact that some come out a bit long and some on and only get action if they come out too short. While I won't say how much short I allow I do some but not a whole lot (I think everyone needs to decide for themselves what too short is and what their comfort level with it is though I also do not shoot full tilt reloads)

I did some testing with long bullet seating and in order to contract the lands they would have to be so extremely long as the variation is far short of that. So long is not an issue from that standpoint. You probably wold not be able to get them in the clip if they were that long.

I have yet to have function issues with long though it may occur in some guns. Accuracy is not likely to be affected (at least to where you could see it) in a pistol.
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Old June 28, 2013, 06:45 PM   #14
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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Quote:
While brass does need to be checked for length (or should be) it is not going to affect the COAL as none of the setting have anything to do with length of brass.
Perhaps I should have been more explicit. I never said nor implied brass length affected C.O.L.__ I think it would be wise of you to re-read my post again for proper clarity Sir.

Quote:
As far as different seating depths seen. You can expect to see that happening in/on many progressive press's. Speed in reloading using a consumer's progressive press. Does have its draw backs. It's called "Acceptable Tolerances" by the tools manufacture.
S/S
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Old June 28, 2013, 07:11 PM   #15
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I use and enjoy the 147 gr Rainiers and 147 gr cast.
When you say that your OAL was different, how different? A couple thousandths? A couple hundredths? A couple thousandths is really no big deal. Stay away from Min OAL, and you'll be fine. Significant shifts more than a thousandth or two? Check your press setup. If nothing on the equipment is shifting, it shouldn't care what bullet you're using, it'll just push until it stops where it was set, regardless of perceived bullet deficiencies.
Bullet weight variations, a total of 5 gr variation is nothing to lose sleep over IMHO. It's practice ammo, don't sweat it.
For what you're doing, you should really consider a slower powder. .3 gr for a total range is just crappy, IMHO. FWIW, I run them with Unique.
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Old June 28, 2013, 07:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
I checked Hodgdon's and Rainer load data figuring they might differ from Lyman. Rainer has no load data and Hodgdon didn't have a listing for titegroup/cast bullet in 147gr, and I'm too new to wing it.
I ran into lack of data issues using Winchester WST and had to use several sources to extrapolate a starting load. Even with the listed OAL they were way too long and had to go back to the forums and get OAL length data from people who have used WST in 124 GRN cast.

You should be safe with the load you are using as it is lighter than what is normally used in the lead 147 GRN lead bullets with comparable powders.

With that being said your AOL was your original concern and as previously stated by another poster adjust a little shorter than the max AOL and they will stay below max.

All should be well as long as they are feeding and chambering properly and you can check that before starting the bullet seating process for the remainder of your loads.

If you have a problem with the dummy chambering properly your AOL is probably too long.
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Old June 29, 2013, 08:05 AM   #17
grizmt
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You know what I find interesting as I get more into this? That something that depends on something as small as .1 grain and needs a micrometer to test down to .01 doesn't have components that are within that kind of tolerence.
I've always had a policy (fear based I'm sure) that if it can kill or maim me like with electricity,explosive gases,acids etc. I want to know pretty much exactly what I'm doing is correct and "shouldn't" result in my demise or injury.
I understand the more you compress the space between the bullet and powder the more you raise the pressure created when you ignite said powder so I'm trying to determine the spec I should be using so I don't under or over compress (don't want the bullet to just fall out of the barrel either).

I'm sure when I've got a few years of this under my belt and have figured out the swings that are allowable when dealing with the three calibers I'm going to reload I'll not be so anal or concerned if you will with getting it down to the "nut" if you will.

The reason I've got the combo for 9mm that I've got is supply issues. I came across a local guy who was cleaning out his reloading stuff as his garage was packed to the rafters and since nobody else within 100 miles of me either had what I needed or was not charging double or triple retail I didn't have much choice.

This guy had extra primers,tumbled brass and the 147 gr bullets so I could start learning so that's what I got.
Phoenix is a big market but when you go to a gun show (never again by the way) and they're charging $80 for 1000 small pistol primers you've got to either get creative or just don't load.
I know everyone's in the same boat right now, not complaining just explaining how I ended up starting out at the top end of 9mm loading.
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Old June 29, 2013, 08:39 AM   #18
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I guess you missed what I posted above about the data and your load.......
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Old June 29, 2013, 11:43 AM   #19
grizmt
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No, I saw it and I appreciate it. I'm compiling all the info I get on here so as to make an informed decision with the things that go BANG!
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Old June 29, 2013, 11:51 AM   #20
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Here is some advice specific to the LnL AP.

The press is more consistent regarding OAL when is has the shell plate fully loaded. If you run 1 through then load a couple you usually get a different OAL so get it within a couple thousands on your set up run a full shell plate through and then check your OAL and reset as needed.

When using mixed head stamp brass the OAL can change with the different head stamps. This has nothing to do with the length of the case, it is related to the stiffness or thickness of the brass and the 0-ring used to lock the die in place. Watch your seating die as you load and you will see some movement as the bullet is seated, stiffer or thicker brass will cause the seating die to lift more then thinner or softer brass. This can be fixed by using a wrench on the flats of the locking ring and tightening the die up to eliminate as much movement as possible don’t overdo it, it does not take much. Hornady also has shims that you can use to eliminate some movement.

Mike
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Old June 29, 2013, 12:02 PM   #21
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My old Lyman manual lists COAL (with bullet) as 1.169" for the 9mm Luger.

This COAL is the longest that will chamber without safety issues. It is NOT a required length, it is the max limit.

Shorter OALs are fine, provided they feed without issue, and pressure is not excessive.

Seating depth is a data point, and so long as it does not exceed COAL, and, providing it works in your gun, is not a concern, unless you are seating too long a bullet too deeply. And that is entirely dependent on your specific bullet, load, and seating depth.

You set your die, and every round is COAL max, or less, right? My response would be, ..yep..so?

Case neck tension, crimp (taper for the 9mm), die setting, bullet nose shape/length all have an effect on how deep the bullet is seated, and if it stays there. Doing part of the process wrong can have bad results.
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Old June 30, 2013, 12:31 PM   #22
grizmt
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I appreciate ALL of the advice! Really, I do. Sometimes I can over complicate things, I think this may just be one of those times.
I also think I'll be a bit more comfortable after I cycle a few loads through the pistol without (hopefully) something ugly happening.

Kind of funny, when younger (early teens to early twenties I played a ton with fireworks, not the Red Devil family stuff but the stuff that'd get you a long vacation with 3 hots and a cot, played with explosives, fulminate of mercury my brother made etc without worry, some caution, yes but not overly.
Who'd of thunk a small little cylinder filled with a couple of pinches of powder would make me this cautious? I've modified rockets with more powder than that.

I wasn't aware that head stamp was that critical, looks like I'll have to sort out my can full of brass. Something to do while watching the race go round and round I guess.
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Old June 30, 2013, 02:10 PM   #23
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Headstamp is not critical - on handgun loads especially, in my opinion.

I load thousands of rounds a year in .40S&W ...and I've always swept up range brass...and used a variety of head stamps - with no discernable difference in accuracy or performance.
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