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Old January 6, 2013, 11:12 AM   #1
wrightme43
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New to reloading, with a few questions.

Hi my name is Steve W. I have read for many hours on here, and I want to thank you all for the time and information you have shared.
I am new to reloading. I have a Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle in .308 win. I have a new Lee breech lock kit, with the PPM, the hand primers, and the on press primer tools, a .308 case length gauge, and a trimer/chamfer tool. They are mounted on a bench in the basement, next to the scale. I am waiting on a set of Lee deluxe rifle dies in .308, and a Lee 2cnd edition reloading manual.
I have one pound of IMR 3031 powder and 1000 remington 9 1/2 large rifle primers. I have Hornady 150 gr, BTSP bullets (100) count. I have over 100 7.62x51 CBC ball M80 2012 manufactured empty brass, that were orginally fired in my rifle. (That does fire form them to my rifle, correct?)

I do not have any form of brass cleaning, tumbler or ultrasonic. Is ultrasonic better?
Is cleaning needed, if there is no corrosion?

I understand that I need to reduce the starting load by 10% when using this military brass. It is boxer primed brass.

I found Chuck Hawks load using a Sierra 150 sbt game king with 42.2 gr of IMR 3031. I am having trouble finding a load that specificly calls out the Hornady 150 gr spbt, and IMR 3031.

I am I correct in a the idea that a 150 grain bt bullet from one manufacture, will use close to the same amount of powder as another from a different manufacture?

If that is correct, and I am using 7.62x51 reduce load by 10% a 38 grain load shoud be fairly equal?

I should work up to that 38 grain load from 36 grains in .5 grain increments, to see what my rifle likes, but stopping if there are any signs of over pressure.

Before I begin that I need to measure how many grains of water the CBC brass holds? Will that be enough for you guys to tell me if a 10% reduction is the right place to start?

I would be glad to buy .308 brass if there were any available. There are zero .308 rounds for sale in warren county that I can find. Ditto on .308 brass, also none I can find online for sale actually in stock.

I also need to tell you all what the rounds are for and where they will be used.
I live in southern KY. Deer wieght targets, most shots 100 yards or less, a long shot here would be 250 yards due to terrain that I will most likely never take.

I hope I have provided the info to get good answers and help. I research everything, and dont take anything for granted, so if you feel I am doing something wrong, let me know, but please explain why.
Thank you for your time.
Steve
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Old January 6, 2013, 02:59 PM   #2
Lost Sheep
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Welcome to the forum and reloading. Thanks for asking our advice.

Quote:

Hi my name is Steve W. I have read for many hours on here, and I want to thank you all for the time and information you have shared.
Welcome to the forum, Steve. Our pleasure to help a novice enter the same "madness" we share. Handloading can be quite the hobby in and of itself, especially when you get into the quest for that particular load that your rifle is particularly "in tune" with.
Quote:
I have over 100 7.62x51 CBC ball M80 2012 manufactured empty brass, that were orginally fired in my rifle. (That does fire form them to my rifle, correct?)
Yes, they are fire formed to your chamber. It they will not be fired in another rifle, you do not have to full-length resize them, but only the neck where the bullet is held. Full-length resizing is only required when your brass becomes hard to chamber. Full-length sizing typically shortens the brass' life.
Quote:
I do not have any form of brass cleaning, tumbler or ultrasonic. Is ultrasonic better?
Is cleaning needed, if there is no corrosion?
Cleaning can be done by washing in soap and water, tumbling in a polishing media (walnut shells, etc.) or wiping down with a soft cloth. DO NOT USE anything containing ammonia. It chemically weakens the brass.
Quote:
I understand that I need to reduce the starting load by 10% when using this military brass. It is boxer primed brass.
If a load recipe gives maximum and minimum load data, I usually start at the minimum and work up. If only one load is given, yes 10%, except H110 and W296 whose window of performance is 3% (per the powder manufacturer). They are actually the same powder in different packaging and excellent for maximum performance, but do not behave well when downloaded.

(EDIT) I did not pick up on the "military". Now your question makes more sense to me. See my comments on bullet substitution below.

The thing about military brass is that is is usually heavier than civilian brass, having thicker web and walls for use in the generally more generous chambers found in typical (that is, not special purpose) military weapons where reliability is given more importance than reloading, efficiency or pinpoint accuracy. Hence they have less internal volume than civilian brass of the same chambering.
Quote:
I found Chuck Hawks load using a Sierra 150 sbt game king with 42.2 gr of IMR 3031. I am having trouble finding a load that specificly calls out the Hornady 150 gr spbt, and IMR 3031.

I am I correct in a the idea that a 150 grain bt bullet from one manufacture, will use close to the same amount of powder as another from a different manufacture?

If that is correct, and I am using 7.62x51 reduce load by 10% a 38 grain load shoud be fairly equal?

I should work up to that 38 grain load from 36 grains in .5 grain increments, to see what my rifle likes, but stopping if there are any signs of over pressure.
If the bullets are sufficiently similar in the respects I write about below, substitution is easy. If not, go to the bullet manufacturer's web site to see if there is load data there.

I can't address specifics, but the important things about bullet substitution are 1) the volume UNDER the bullet is more important than OAL (Over All Length) of your cartridge. OAL is merely a proxy for the free volume inside the cartridge. 2) neck tension (how much force is requred to start the bullet moving out of the cartridge case), which is affected by the length of the bearing surface between the bullet and case neck and how hard the case neck is gripping the bullet. 3) bearing surface of the bullet on the rifling and 4) the hardness and friction coefficient of the bullet on the rifling.
Quote:
Before I begin that I need to measure how many grains of water the CBC brass holds?
Very thorough of you to think of this. Most reloaders don't, but if you want to get the most accurate performance out of your handloading, is a good idea.

Most handloaders who seek maximum accuracy simply weigh their brass, using weight as a proxy for internal volume.
Quote:
Will that be enough for you guys to tell me if a 10% reduction is the right place to start?
I don't think I can tell you anything. Not enough information.

It is a relative thing. If the brass (and the firearm) used by the ballistics lab is the same as the brass you are using their load recommendations will be close to what will be optimal in your rifle. However, I have never seen a manual that tells you the volume of their brass used in testing. But SAAMI (Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturing Institute) standards for ammunition and chamber dimensions along with the procedures for working up loads will keep you safe. There is not that much variation.

If you have developed a load for one lot of brass and acquire another lot (or, more to the point, another headstamp) comparing the volume change between the two batches will tell you whether you need to make large changes in your working up for the new brass. For instance, if you have a load worked up in Hornady brass and acquire another headstamp that you discover has 8% more volume, you might expect your best accuracy from an up-scaled charge. But take nothing for granted and stay within load parameters that have been tested in ballistics laboratories.
Quote:
I would be glad to buy .308 brass if there were any available. There are zero .308 rounds for sale in warren county that I can find. Ditto on .308 brass, also none I can find online for sale actually in stock.
I rarely ever but virgin brass. I simply buy commercially loaded ammunition, shoot it myself and reload those. When my supply gets short, I buy some more loaded ammunition.

Others prefer to buy virgin brass from their favorite manufacturer, reasoning that it is more uniform in volume and metallurgy. (They are probably right - virgin brass makers know handloaders will be using and re-using their brass where commercial brass intended for retail sale is probably shot once and discarded a lot more often.)
Quote:
I also need to tell you all what the rounds are for and where they will be used.
I live in southern KY. Deer wieght targets, most shots 100 yards or less, a long shot here would be 250 yards due to terrain that I will most likely never take.

I hope I have provided the info to get good answers and help. I research everything, and dont take anything for granted, so if you feel I am doing something wrong, let me know, but please explain why.
Thank you for your time.
Steve
Very thorough questions, and thanks for being so specific.

There is a philosophical difference between reloading and handloading. Reloaders generally do more volume. Handloaders carefully craft their ammunition for specific purposes. (No disrespect is intended to either group.) Both philosophies adhere to the same safety and process rules.

You sound more like a budding handloader. I am a reloader. I tip my hat to you. Good hunting.

Lost Sheep

Last edited by Lost Sheep; January 6, 2013 at 05:21 PM.
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Old January 6, 2013, 03:18 PM   #3
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Hi Steve,
My Hornady 4th Edition Handbook lists IMR-3031 for the .308 Win. Their data was tested using a Model 70 Winchester with a 22" barrel, a Hornady/Frontier case, and a Federal 210 primer, and had the following data for IMR-3031 powder:

36.3 gr 2400 fps
37.9 gr 2500 fps
39.6 gr 2600 fps
41.2 gr 2700 fps

And yes, your cases are fire formed to your chamber and you could just neck size them if you so desire. But as a new handloader, I suggest you go ahead and full length size to ensure ease of chambering. Follow the instructions in your loading manual and die set and you should have no issues. As for cleaning the brass, wiping it off with rag prior to sizing it is probably good enough to make sure no gunk scratches your dies.

Eventually you may want to invest in a tumbler and media just because the brass looks like new and ensures your dies don't get messed up. I use RCBS case lube 2 which is water soluble, so after I tumble my brass, I lube it, (including the inside of the case neck with a nylon brush) and run it through the sizing die, I wipe all the cases with a wet towel, then a dry towel to make sure the lube is cleaned off. (I probably am a little on the OCD side, but that isn't necessarily bad when it comes to loading ammo).
I have never felt the need for an ultrasonic cleaner. Have had a couple of vibrating tumblers over the years, and they do fine along with some brass polish in the media.
I don't know if you need to reduce the starting load by 10% if you are using military brass. I would weigh the brass and see how it compares to other brass, and unless it is notably heavier, I would just use the starting load and load 3 rounds and see how they shoot. Then work up gradually and watch for signs of excessive pressure, i.e. difficult extraction, extremely flattened primers, excessive case head expansion, loose primer pockets, marks on the case heads.
There are other powders that may provide better performance in the .308, but IMR-3031 is certainly capable. You may want to try some ball powder like Win 748, Accurate 2460, or Ramshot TAC next time. They meter much better in a powder measure and also provide a little more velocity. Good Luck.
Full disclosure, I have not loaded the .308 Winchester yet, but I do have a set of Lee dies and some cases and bullets since my wife's nephew got a new .308 a few months ago. I have however loaded a few thousand rounds of .223 Rem, 22-250, 22-250 A.I., .243 Win, 6mm Rem, 6.5x55 Swede, .270 Win, .270 WSM, 7mm-08, .280 Rem, 7mm Rem Mag, 30-30 Win, 30-06, and .338 Federal over the past 3 + decades. Not to mention the handgun rounds.
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Old January 6, 2013, 04:46 PM   #4
chris in va
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I wouldn't bother with a cleaner yet, unless you put a couple hundred downrange every trip. Just give them a good wipe down with a towel.
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Old January 6, 2013, 06:25 PM   #5
wrightme43
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LostSheep, 2cndtimer, and Chris thank you for your response. This after noon, I worked on finding the volume to grains measurement for my batch of 3031.
I ran 20 shots of 5cc weighed each and then averaged the sets in batches of 5. I came out with .0745, I also averaged all 20 and still got .0745. I set my measure to dispense 36 grains of powder and practiced that over and over. It required a very small amount of adjustment and then it worked very closely. I will have to get a trickle charger as well.

So far I am having alot of fun!! The dies should be in this week. If not I guess I will mail order them.

Thank you all again!!!
Steve
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Old January 6, 2013, 06:55 PM   #6
jimbob86
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Welcome to the wonderful world of rollin' yer own!

Quote:
I have a Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle in .308 win.
Nice gun.

Most of your questions were answered above, I think, save one:

Do you NEED a case cleaner?

No. I handloaded for my hunting rifles for a couple of years before I bought a case cleaner (when I started reloading for pistols, using carbide dies). my cases were shiny clean, too. Here's how:

Using a conventional full length sizing die* requires using case lube. I used Lee's water based wax lube, thinned 4x and allowed to dry.

After sizing, I did the trim/chamfer/deburr operations with the case trim shellholder chucked into a 3/8" drill ...... as a final step, I wrapped a rag around the case, applied a bit of pressure and gave it a spin. The rag took all the lube off the case, and left it shiny clean...... ready to prime......


*Now I mostly use a Lee Collet neck Sizing die .... so I need to clean the cases.

Last edited by jimbob86; January 8, 2013 at 01:11 AM.
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Old January 6, 2013, 07:11 PM   #7
wrightme43
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Hey thank you very much. I love my GSR. Now they went and made one in stainless with a 18" bbl. instead of 16.5" I got a heck of deal on it. New in box, 459$ taxes and all, trading in a old sherriffs carry mdl 65 in stainless I paid 200$ for years ago. Sorry I know this is off topic, so I will quit, I just love this rifle though.

I appreciate all of the time you all put into answering my questions.
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Old January 6, 2013, 07:12 PM   #8
PA-Joe
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When substituting bullet makers of the same weight, you cannot use the same AOL as each bullet has a different profile. Check the bullet maker's site for the correct AOL.
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Old January 6, 2013, 07:14 PM   #9
jimbob86
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Quote:
Now they went and made one in stainless with a 18" bbl.
Blast it! Every time I think I have all the guns I want, Ruger goes and adds another must have to my list!
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Old January 6, 2013, 07:27 PM   #10
wrightme43
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Oh and the reason I chose Imr 3031 is it seems to be perfect for a 150 grain bullet. Chuck Hawks seems to think it perfect for that bullet weight.
Also this post from the shooters forum seems to reinforce the idea that is a good choice.

unclenick
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I thought I would try an experiment for this in QuickLOAD to see what powder it might choose for someone new to loading the cartridge who wants to explore the load range with his bullet? I ran a powder table in QuickLOAD at maximum pressure and a second one at a starting pressure 25% below maximum. l used a 150 grain jacketed bullet. I then exported both result sets to Excel and weeded out any powders that were:
Not producing velocity within 100 fps of the top velocity producer
Not on both lists
Required more than 105% compressed charge in the high pressure loads
Filled the case less than 90% in the low pressure loads
That criteria left me with 13 powders.

In descending order of velocity produced at maximum pressure they are:

Alliant Reloder-17
IMR 3031
IMR 4895
Hodgdon BL-C2
Norma 203B
Alliant Reloder-15
Accurate 2520
Hodgdon H4895
Accurate 2495
Hodgdon H380
Norma 202
Vihtavuori N540
Vihtavuori N140


In decending order of velocity produced at 25% below maximum pressure (starting load) they are:

IMR 3031
Alliant Reloder-17
Hodgdon BL-C2
IMR 4895
Accurate 2495
Accurate 2520
Norma 203B
Alliant Reloder-15
Hodgdon H4895
Vihtavuori N540
Norma 202
Hodgdon H380
Vihtavuori N140

Some of the best known accuracy powders, like IMR 4064 and Varget didn't get enough velocity to make the list, so this is not going to prove to be the only criteria you want to rely. It is just a shot at the idea I thought I'd put out there. The biggest surprise was how well IMR 3031 came out. This powder used to be popular even in .30-06, but that faded some because the bigger case could take advantage of slower powders. But in .308, with a light side (to match shooters) 150 grain bullet weight, IMR 3031 appears to make a surprisingly good match. In addition to covering the whole pressure spectrum and producing near-top velocities, it uses the lightest charge weight and produces the 9 lowest muzzle pressure on either list. That means its recoil, relative to the velocity produced, will be about the smallest.
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"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley
END QUOTE!!!

Please do not take anything I say as me dismissing knowledge gained by others. I just really really like to understand why something works better than something else.

It seems to me the critrea I want in a round, will be met with this powder/bullet combo. It is fails to perform as I think I will move on untill I find what I want.
Once I have this combo figured out, I plan to work on a Barnes TSX 168 gr combo. I believe it may need a different powder, then again I read loads using 3031 in that combo too, producing good accuracy and plenty of power.
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Old January 6, 2013, 08:11 PM   #11
wrightme43
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I measured and averaged 10 of my 7.62x51 CBC nato once fired brass.
54.4 grains of water in CBC 7.62x51
from reading http://www.700rifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=908
55.8 for Lapula .308
57.3 for Winchester .308
55.5 for Federal .308

I tried to weigh my cases but they go off the scale on my lee PPM.

From all that I have read I would of expected more difference. Is this inline with you guys experince? I am new to the use of the scale, I have used it over and over and over for the last day and half. I think I am getting acurate results now.
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Old January 6, 2013, 08:27 PM   #12
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Here is a picture or two of the crimp on my brass. I will just use a hornady primer pocket reamer untill I can afford a swagging tool. Also a cool picture of relitive burn rates.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1-6-13 116resized.jpg (52.6 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg 1-6-13 117resize.jpg (53.6 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg RELATIVEBURNRATE_zps56a522f3.jpg (129.6 KB, 16 views)
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Old January 6, 2013, 08:45 PM   #13
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What does weighing water capacity do? Is it necessary?

What is AOL?

Thanks
-germs
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Old January 6, 2013, 10:13 PM   #14
wrightme43
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I only measured water capacity to compare it to civilian .308 winchester brass. I have 7.62x51 nato made by CBC of Brazil. I had read that military brass had 10% less capacity because the lower web was thicker and that you had to reduce your loads in it because of over pressure concerns. It seems to me from measuring that my brass in this lot is almost the same.

I think he meant Over All Length. It also seems to be COL Case Overall Length. I am just guessing though since I didnt write it.
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Old January 7, 2013, 02:05 PM   #15
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Weighing the water a case holds has been a method of guessing what the case capacity is for the powder to burn in. But it's flawed because the more out of round a given case is, the less water it'll hold. Why? Well, if the case is perfectly flattened, it'll hold no water. A given case but with different out of round dimensions will hold different amounts of water for each one. And two cases of the same weight but fired with much different peak pressures will end up with the one fired with the highest pressure having the greatest case capacity of water, but it's still the same weight. One's better off measuring case weight as that tells you the amount of brass that'll fill up the chamber when it's fired. Case weight spreads of 1% of total are good enough for even the very best accuracy.

3031's a bit fast for 150's in a .308 case. Folks shooting that weight bullets from .308 cases in competition prefer a bit slower powder for best results. 4895, Varget, VVN150 and RE-15 are much better. Besides, 3031 dirties up ones barrel pretty fast.
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Old January 7, 2013, 03:07 PM   #16
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You also owe it to yourself to try W-748 , in your .308 ! W-748 has been my powder of choice for 150 and 165 Gr. bullets for years and years ! It works very well in barrels that are shorter than 22" as far as velocity is concerned , accuracy is as good as the shooter !
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Old January 7, 2013, 07:26 PM   #17
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Awesome thank you guys.
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Old January 7, 2013, 10:22 PM   #18
the led farmer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightme43 View Post
...
I do not have any form of brass cleaning, tumbler or ultrasonic. Is ultrasonic better?
Is cleaning needed, if there is no corrosion?

Thank you for your time.
Steve
I recently gave up tumbling brass. I have found that a five gallon bucket with dirty brass, hot water, a squirt of soap and lemishine gets my brass far cleaner than realistically necessary. Swish it around with a stick every now and then and when the water is cold my brass is clean. Rinse and done.

I gave up the vibratory tumbler for thumler with SS pins so lest anyone think I didn't bother to do it right think again. I found i don't need spotless primer pockets, (that's another waste of time) and super shiny brass i could care less about not to mention separating the media is a chore the little pins end up all over the place.

If you want super shiny brass and are anal that way knock your socks off.

I want my reloads to go bang and hit what I am aiming at and pretty brass is not a requirement.

My $.02 on tumbling
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