44 magnumbrass gone wrong

[Randyralph]

Good day gents,
Just wondering if anyone has had a piece of 44 magnum brass seperate before.
I have never had a piece of 357 brass come apart before, but this weekend I was shooting my model 94 lever action, and a piece of Remington 44 magnum brass came apart. I have about 400 pieces that have been reloaded about the same amount of time, and I was wondering if I should throw it all out.
All comments will help me on this one, thanks any help.

[DiscoRacing]

new one on me.... my 44s only last for 4 or 5 loads tho... if that... then they usually split lengthwise

[GP100man]

Has this brass always been shot in a lever gun???

Brass length growin at each shot???crimps consistently???

[armsmaster270]

Now that is different never seen that happen.

[Bigjim3]

Ive had it happen with my hand load .45 +P+

[troy_mclure]

odd, i too have had a few split lengthwise, never seen one like that. what do you clean with.

[GeauxTide]

I'd venture pressure and a long throat. What was the case, bullet, powder, primer?

[Sarge]

I can tell you that from running 'ruger only' .45 Colt loads, in both my Old Vaquero & Rossi 92, that the Rossi definitely has the fatter chamber. The 92 therefore sets the bar for loads to be used in both guns, which is fine because a 335 SWC at 1365 fps (from the 16" Rossi) is enough gun for any heavy game shooting I'm likely to do.

Back when I started loading, I heavy-loaded the .357 and had a few cases separate at the cannelure which was rolled into them about mid-point. Those loads were too heavy and it may be that yours are too heavy, at least for the rifle you're shooting them in. The rifle's probably strong enough but your brass just acts as a gasket; if the 'gasket' isn't a close fit to the parts it's supposed to seal, failure is inevitable when you start jacking the pressure up.

[Randyralph]

I checked back through my loading data, and I don't think it is over pressure, because I am staying 1.5 grain below max. I'm loading a 300 grain LRFN with 18 grains of IMR 4227, using WLP primers. I inspected about 50 pieces last night, even to the point of using a chemical crack detection system, but I could not find any cracks what so ever. The other reason I am not supecting over pressure is that the cases docome out a little dirty, and the primers are not flattened.

I use crush corn cob as a cleaner, along with a spoon full of New Finish. This is the same thing I've been doing for years.

The brass is the same stuff I've been using for three years now, I guess it's time to throw it all out and start fresh.

How can I tell if my chamber or throat is over size?

[Randyralph]

That's not bad, 6 responses, but not one answer to my question.........Should or should I not throw out my brass. Not that hard off a question, not like should I leave my wife, or get rid of the dog, just do you think the brass is safe to reload again.

[mapsjanhere]

From the shape of the crack, your brass is getting brittle. You can try annealing it, but as far down as this happened it might be over the whole length of the brass.
I'd keep using it until the next failure (just in case you had a single bad piece), then toss the batch.

[freakshow10mm]

Yes, toss it. It's worn brass. Headspacing issues will show up as head separations farther back towards the case head (very shiny part on the left of the second pic is where it snaps). Near the middle is simply the case stretching thin and breaking. Cut the brass in half lengthwise and note the wall taper. Bet it gets real thin at the break point.

[zxcvbob]

I've had that happen with .357 Magnum's loaded too hot -- or maybe it was just loaded hot too many times but I don't think so. I went back and examined the rest of the brass from that loading and they all had the dreaded bright ring just above the web. (I crushed them and threw them out, but it was only a dozen pieces.) I also quit using Blue Dot for hot .357 loads and switched to AA#7 or 2400.

In a revolver, a case head seperation is annoying but that's it. What's it do in a levergun?

[BluesBear]

It would help us quite a bit to answer your original question if we could see a clear picture of some of the other fired cases.

Also;
Are any of them excessively expanded?
Have you measured them to see just how much they have expanded in the chamber?
What is their overall length?
Have you ever had to trim any of this batch?

[wpcexpert]

That's not bad, 6 responses, but not one answer to my question.........Should or should I not throw out my brass. Not that hard off a question, not like should I leave my wife, or get rid of the dog, just do you think the brass is safe to reload again.

Sure, throw it all out. Every single case will probably do the same thing. In fact, it's probably your rifle. Better sell it.

[Zombie Steve]

I've had a .357 mag split straight across like that (in the middle, not in the web area) on the first time shooting it. Just a defective case. As always, check the others for wear. If they are splitting from getting worn out, they'll split lengthwise.

[Unclenick]

If that's a stretch point in all the brass, you should be able to feel it by probing the inside of the other cases. If you don't have any dental tools, open up a paperclip and bend the end into a small hook and slide it into the cases against the side. See if you find a dip in there where it thins out. If so, toss the brass that has that and keep loading the rest.

[Lost Sheep]

I have picked out what seems to me to be the best pieces of advice and added my own thoughts.

Originally Posted by BluesBear

It would help us quite a bit to answer your original question if we could see a clear picture of some of the other fired cases.

Also;
Are any of them excessively expanded?
Have you measured them to see just how much they have expanded in the chamber?
What is their overall length?
Have you ever had to trim any of this batch?

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

I've had that happen with .357 Magnum's loaded too hot -- or maybe it was just loaded hot too many times but I don't think so. I went back and examined the rest of the brass from that loading and they all had the dreaded bright ring just above the web. (I crushed them and threw them out, but it was only a dozen pieces.) I also quit using Blue Dot for hot .357 loads and switched to AA#7 or 2400.

Originally Posted by freakshow10mm

Yes, toss it. It's worn brass. Headspacing issues will show up as head separations farther back towards the case head (very shiny part on the left of the second pic is where it snaps). Near the middle is simply the case stretching thin and breaking. Cut the brass in half lengthwise and note the wall taper. Bet it gets real thin at the break point.
November 18, 2009 02:06 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but headspacing causing head separation is what this appears to be. Just because the separation took place further up the case than you expected means nothing. (Just one man's opinion, as I have no experience with any case failures like this) The process of separation because of headspacing is just one of the case failing under lengthwise tension. Where the case breaks will depend largely on where the front half grips the chamber walls in addition to where the case walls are thin or thick.

The suggestion of cutting a cartridge in half lengthways is an excellent one, I would start with the failed cartridge. Then try to find one that you think might be the next to fail (use the paper clip "feeler tool" suggested by Unclenick to find a candidate) and cut that one in half. Measure the wall thickness along the cartridge length and compare it to unfired brass.

Originally Posted by mapsjanhere

From the shape of the crack, your brass is getting brittle. You can try annealing it, but as far down as this happened it might be over the whole length of the brass.
I'd keep using it until the next failure (just in case you had a single bad piece), then toss the batch.

I question the annealing advice. Annealing reduces brittleness, but it also makes the brass more ductile. I suspect excessive headspace, in which case, annealing will accelerate the problem.

freakshow10mm's advice about cutting a case in half lengthwise (or the alternate, easier expedient method of feeling for a thin ring with the paperclip described by Unclenick) sounds worthwile. There is also a tool called a "Pin Gauge" (I think) that might be able to actually measure the brass thickness without having to cut the case. But the jaws on a pin gauge might not be long or slim enough to reach that far into the case. So, I would make the paperclip tool and feel the insides of the cases. If that examination is inconclusive, cut one in half. It may not be worth it for the amount of brass you have at issue, but if the problem is your rifle's chamber dimensions (which is what I suspect), it will definitiely be worth it.

The next step would be to acually measure your chamber, probably by taking a cast. But you could try this first:

Take a once-fired case and make up a dummy round in your usual way of reloading, but no powder and put a spent primer the primer pocket. (You could do this without a bullet in the case, but we want this round to be identical in every dimension to your normal ammunition.) You could do the same thing with a "Snap-Cap" if you have any at hand.

Chamber the round.

Try to find out if there is any free play (fore-aft) of the cartridge. There would be several ways. Point the rifle down and insert a cleaning rod or slim wooden dowl in the barrel and push on the cartridge. You may be able to feel where the rod touches the cartridge and then see if there is movement before the base of the cartridge hits the breechface. Another way is to point the rifle up and put the dowl or rod down the barrel, then lower the hammer so the firing pin pushes on the cartridge. See how much the rod moves. That is free movement in your headspace and it should be minimal. Or, you could just pull the trigger. If the rod jumps, there is free play/headspace. The higher it jumps, the more space there is. But since this is a VERY rough measure, it cannot tell you with any great degree of accuracy what condition your chamber is in. Gunsmiths have much more sophisticated (and accurate) ways of measuring, but this might encourage you to pay for those services (or save you the trouble if escessive headspace is not the source).

Originally Posted by Unclenick

If that's a stretch point in all the brass, you should be able to feel it by probing the inside of the other cases. If you don't have any dental tools, open up a paperclip and bend the end into a small hook and slide it into the cases against the side. See if you find a dip in there where it thins out. If so, toss the brass that has that and keep loading the rest.

To which I add; If it appears in all the brass fired in this gun, I would inspect the gun. A properly sized chamber should not do this. Bottlenecked cartridges doing this are often the fault of too-aggressive reloading (setting the shoulder back). But in a straight-walled cartridge headspacing on a rim... suspect the gun to be in need of a gunsmith's attention.

I suddenly thought of another possibility. If that batch of brass has a rim thickness too thin, that would create excessive headspace also. Vanishingly rare probability, but I suppose it could happen, and it is easy to measure a rim's thickness.

Good luck. I hope I have not muddied the waters.

Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post.

Do your own independent, confirming research when ANYONE gives you new facts on the web.

Also remember, even the idiotic stuff might have a kernel of truth buried in there somewhere.

Lost Sheep

disclaimer: I do not know you, so if my advice seems over-obvious, take into account my ignorance of your experience level. Also, other readers of all experience levels are reading.

[Randyralph]

Thanks all for your imput, I have decided to throw it all out. Yesterday I started to reload some more of that brass, and I started wondering if it was good or bad. I could see { in the future}myself twitching when I would pull the trigger, and knew that if I did load the rounds my accuracy would be poor, and that I would not enjoy shooting them. I guess it is better safe than sorry, even though I don't know if it would be un safe to use them.
Thanks all

[Stargazer]

Same thing happened to me with .357 case. Seperated like that on the resize downstroke. I chalked it up to a bad case and moved on. Hasn't happened since.