10mm Round for Defense

[KyJim]

I'm in the process of getting a 1911 in 10mm and, if I like it, to use it for defense. A number of commercial loads out there basically mimic the .40 S&W but I'm looking for something loaded a little warmer for possible defensive use. I've been looking at either the Winchester 175 gr. Silvertip at about 1150 fps or Georgia Arms new 180 gr. Speer bonded loads at about 1200 fps. It's been hard to find real data (like ballistic gel test results) in anything except the lower velocity rounds. I'm open to suggestions.

[MrDontPlay]

How 'bout these?

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...duct_list&c=24

[KyJim]

I took a look at Buffalo Bore's site and they don't tell what kind of bullet they are using, only that it is a jacketed hollow cavity. They don't not even say if the bullets are bonded or not. At 1300 to 1400 fps, jacket separation can be an issue. Anybody know for sure about the Buffalo Bores?

[Jefs]

I've shot a lot of DT ammo in my G29 and G20 and recommend them for stouter loads:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...hp?cPath=21_25

I've also shot a good deal of Georgia Arms 10mm canned heat bulk buys for target fodder and recommend them too.

[Catfishman]

Everything I've read on Buffalo Bore is positive. Why don't you ask them. They claim to answer questions emailed to them quickly. I'd be very interested in their answer.

[KyJim]

Why don't you ask them.

Good idea.

Jefs -- Thanks for info on the DoubleTaps. I may look into those after I get my pistol and put some rounds through it.

[MrDontPlay]

Buffalo bore
Double tap
Cor-Bon

All premium ammo with some serious heat!

[Dan-O]

Underwood Ammo seems to get up and moving as well. Quite a bit of buzz about them in the 10mm shooting circle.

http://www.underwoodammo.com/10mmauto.aspx

[MrDontPlay]

^^^ probably because it's cheap!

[orionengnr]

The 10mm 180 gr. Buffalo Bore JHPs I bought were Montana Gold bullets. Everything I had read led me to believe they used Gold Dot bullets. At almost two bucks per round (special order), I was not happy. I have since read taht BB is now using Montana Gold bullets becasue of "supply issues". I will not buy any more.

The 10mm Double Taps have been widely criticized for not performing up to their claimed velocities (do a search, you will find numerous posts).

I have tried the Georgia Arms 180 gr JHPs--the ones I bought use a Golden Saber bullet (not sure if it is bonded or not). Speaking strictly subjectively, the GA does not feel as "hot" as the Winchester 175 gr. Silver Tips. However, the Golden Saber is a modern bullet design. If I were carrying my 10mm CBOB, it would be loaded with one of those two rounds.

I have read about the Swamp Fox 10mm ammo and will try them when I see them for sale locally. Same for the Underwood.

[KyJim]

I have tried the Georgia Arms 180 gr JHPs--the ones I bought use a Golden Saber bullet (not sure if it is bonded or not)

They're listing Speer bonded bullets now. These are different than Gold Dots and I don't know how they actually perform.

[bamaranger]

I've always read that the W-W 175 gr Silvertip is a good commercial, across the counter load for SD in the 10mm. That's what's in mine for that role.

[jmr40]

GA Arms makes good ammo. I mainly buy fmj as range ammo. Their HP ammo is sort of a mid range. Hotter than .40 S&W, but not in the same league as Double Tap etc.

I live in N. Georgia, about 1/2 hour drive from the factory and they are at all gunshows and I've never had a problem getting 10mm or any other ammo from them, but if ordeing it may be a problem. They have not shown 10mm ammo as being in stock for a long time. They claim they are having trouble getting components.

The 10mm Double Taps have been widely criticized for not performing up to their claimed velocities (do a search, you will find numerous posts).

I'm not sure how to feel about this. I've read of issues, but the loads I've tested were actually a bit faster than advertised. Lots of other guys not having any issues. I sort of think the real problem may lie in the fact that some guys don't fully understand how to interpret chronograph data.

Lots of things effect velocity. No 2 guns will shoot the same ammo to the same speed. I've seen 2 rifles with equal barrel lengths have 120+ fps difference in velocity with ammo from the same box. Some ammo can be close to 100 fps faster when shot at 90 degrees than when shot at 20 degrees. No 2 chronographs will register exactly alike, and even the same chronograpy will sometimes show very diferent speeds at different times of the day because of the angle or intensity of sunlight.

Some of these guys complianing of slow ammo may not realise that their individual gun may just shoot slower, or that they tested under different conditions.

Or Double Tap may have some QC issues where some lots shoot up to advertised velocities, and some don't. But so far it has all been right on, or slightly faster for me.

[Mrgunsngear]

Underwood Ammo is showing good results on my chrono so far. Haven't done a lot of testing but so far it's pretty close or faster than advertised out of my KKM 6'' barrel.

[baccusboy]

Orion, I believe Swampfox is out of business because the owner passed away. I haven't checked their site recently, though.

Also, you are not the only person to get screwed by Buffalo Bore and the Montana Gold bullets. They have known for nair a year that they are misrepresenting their stock by placing photos of Gold Dots on the site but sending out inferior Montana Gold bullets. I even wrote them directly about this a year ago, and they never responded.

They know what they're doing.

I won't purchase from them because I don't like dealing with businesses that openly deceive customers.

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by orionengnr

The 10mm Double Taps have been widely criticized for not performing up to their claimed velocities (do a search, you will find numerous posts).

It's not just Double Tap. Many other 10mm loadings which are advertised as "full-power" or close to it such as Reed's, Winchester Silvertip, and even Norma have been reported to have trouble making advertised velocity. I have a theory that perhaps the issue is not the ammunition but rather the recoil spring. The stock recoil spring in most 10mm semi-autos is designed to allow the gun to function reliably not only with full-power ammo, but also with the lower powered "FBI Lite" level loadings. What I think may be happening is that with full-power ammo, the slide is opening prematurely and allowing some of the proellant gas to escape out of the breech rather than propelling the bullet (Buffalo Bore actually has a warning about this very issue on their website) and thus causing lower velocity and/or high extreme spreads.

The fact that reorts of velocity issues coincide with both the ammo shortage of '09 and an increase in interest in 10mm leads me to wonder if the majority of those using Double Tap and other "boutique" ammo before were 10mm ensthusiasts and knowledgeable enough to have already swapped their springs, but that the newer group of people to try it haven't because they're largely unaware of the recoil spring issue.

Unfortunately, I don't have a chronograph with which to test this theory, so it remains just that: a theory. If I ever get around to buying a chrono (seems like there's always something else demanding my time, money, and attention) I'll test my theory and report the results.

Originally posted by baccusboy

Also, you are not the only person to get screwed by Buffalo Bore and the Montana Gold bullets. They have known for nair a year that they are misrepresenting their stock by placing photos of Gold Dots on the site but sending out inferior Montana Gold bullets. I even wrote them directly about this a year ago, and they never responded.

The picture on Buffalo Bore's website was an old stock photo from before they began having supply issues with Gold Dots (they're not the only ones to have these issues). The picture on their website now shows the Montana Gold Bullets and there is also a disclaimer that the bullets in photos may be different from the actual product. While I don't know a lot about the Montana Gold bullet, what I've read about it for self-defense use hasn't been encouraging. Personally, I'd much rather Buffalo Bore substitute bullets with a proven track record like Hornady XTP's if they can't get Gold Dots.

[Stevie-Ray]

PMC's 170 gr HP load is quite good, shot a lot of those in the old days. They're 1200fps and very accurate out of a Delta Elite. They still make the same load, but it's practically unavailable around here now. Quite common 20 years ago. Maybe they're in your area? What was nice about those back then was their prices, even though they were good loads and a great source for brass. Haven't seen any in quite a while and am now mainly shooting Double Tap.

[KyJim]

Buffalo Bore was kind enough to send me an email on the 10mm bullet question. Though they didn't identify the maker, they did say it was not a bonded bullet. So, that puts them out of the running for me. I'm trending toward either the Silvertips or Hornady XTPs; maybe the GA new Speer bonded bullets which they list at 1150 fps; not smoking but more than the .40 I've seen.

I think, though, that I'll get some range fodder to shoot in the pistol and then try two or three hollow points to see which ones the gun and I like. I'm not in a terrible hurry about it since I do have some other options.

[The_Shadow]

Some of the 1911 guns lack some chamber support, ramped barreled models tend to fair better than non-ramped. This is very important with the high performance custom ammo like Buffalo Bore, Underwood and Double Tap.

Good luck!

[KyJim]

Thanks for the caution. This one has a ramped barrel.

[ClydeFrog]

+1 on Mr Don't Play's remarks.
The factory made JHPs from Double Tap Ammo, Corbon; DPX & PowRball or maybe the Buffalo Bore 10mm could protect you.
I don't think the 10mm is a great choice for defense/CC but it does have a lot of power.
Gun writer & US military veteran, Duane Thomas wrote a detailed article in the mid 1990s about how & why the 10mm is a poor choice for carry.

Mostly, he says the cartridge design of the 10mm is flawed & can cause problems-jams in semi auto pistols.
The 10mm had a major push in the late 1980s/early 1990s. It didn't last due to the many problems.
ClydeFrog

[arentol]

Underwood is the least expensive, true full-power, readily available (on the internet) ammo for 10mm I have been able to find in a couple years of searching. Underwood also tells you what bullet is used in everything they make.

That being said, if you want to use full-power 10mm in a 1911 you will want to get a ramped barrel, and then you may still have problems with some of Underwood's lower-grain ammo causing case expansion that results in FTE's.

I have found that I can use 180gr Underwood JHP in my Ramped Dan Wesson RZ-10 reliably. I can also use 200gr in my Unramped Fusion 10mm Commander reliably. Anything lighter doesn't work reliably in either gun.

Double-tap is a good choice too. Their stuff doesn't shoot at its rated velocity, but it still shoots hotter than "normal" 10mm ammo by a good margin. As to it being the guns/springs fault that rounds don't measure the same in real life as the manufacturers claim like Webelymkv suggested.... The testing I have seen was from a stock Glock 20, and Doubletaps claimed test results are supposed to be from a stock Glock 20..... And also the results were not off by 20fps or 30fps, like a spring might cause, they were off by 100 to 150fps. And then there were other rounds that met their claimed velocities when fired from the same gun, including some like Underwood that have the exact same velocity claims for the exact same grain ammo as Double Tap. These lower results have also been verified by multiple people.

As to bonded bullets... Buffalo Bores 155grain Barnes bullets are not bonded because they are all copper. So no separation there. As to their 180 JHP, it shouldn't be that much of a concern anyway. If a 180grain bullet hits your target at 1350fps and loses almost 20% of its mass to jacket separation that is still 145 grains at 1350fps, which is nothing to sneeze at. Besides, there is a good chance their won't be any real separation at all. 1350 is fast, but it isn't super-fast.

As to 10mm causing jams... Yes it can, see what I say above about Underwood Ammo. However, all ammo can jam, and this concern is easily mitigated by extensive testing of your carry ammo in your firearm. If it works without jams for a couple hundred rounds, and you test it every few months to make sure it still works well, then you should be no more worried about 10mm than you are about any other cartridge in a similarly tested gun.

[Mike_Fontenot]

I alternate BuffaloBore (1350 ft/s) and DoubleTap (1305 ft/s) 180gr in my 10mm Kimber Eclipse Custom II 1911. I've been impressed with both of them, although I haven't none any wet newspaper tests or chronograph tests like I did years ago with my titanium/scandium .357 snubby.

I think 10mm is hands-down the best caliber for a full size, all steel 1911 ... might as well have something to show for all that weight. (My 1911 weighs 3-1/2 times as much as my .357 snubby!)

[5RWill]

Originally Posted by dan-O

Underwood Ammo seems to get up and moving as well. Quite a bit of buzz about them in the 10mm shooting circle.

Yeah, i've shot some of their 45 ammo and it was great. I then bought some 230gr Gold Dots from them also very good. Can't beat them for the price of new ammunition, especially in self defense.

[CDW4ME]

You mentioned XTP's, I have twice chronographed the 155 gr. XTP out of my Glock 29 and despite the short barrel 5 shot averages exceeded the advertised velocity on the box.
1,279 / 1,278 fps (562# KE) Good blend of power & controlability.