Updated LeMat

**4V50 Gary** · June 18, 2014, 07:40 PM

A retired machinist who is taking a summer class at Trinidad State JC NRA's summer gunsmithing program brought in his home built .357 Maximum over a 28 gauge revolver. It's a break open ala Webley but the lockwork is single action only. I'll see if I can get a photo or two.

Colt46 · June 18, 2014, 07:51 PM

Looking forward to this.

Pahoo · June 18, 2014, 07:56 PM

Sounds interesting and what a project to bite into !! ....

Be Safe !!!

Jim Watson · June 18, 2014, 08:16 PM

Wouldn't that constitute a SBS? Or maybe a DD?
I understand that Taurus could not license a 28 ga super judge for sale here.

James K · June 18, 2014, 09:00 PM

Legally, it would be OK if the shotgun barrel had some rifling.

But I question any break top in a powerful cartridge; the original LeMats were open top, but both charges were fairly light, nothing like the .357 Maximum.

Jim

g.willikers · June 19, 2014, 10:28 AM

Did he offer to allow you to fire the first rounds?

Glenn E. Meyer · June 19, 2014, 11:28 AM

There was someone who would convert replica LeMats to 38 SPL - way back when. I don't remember the details.

Maybe Taurus could build a Judge with 410s around a 12 gauge?

James K · June 20, 2014, 04:31 PM

One drawback (and which existed in the original LeMat) is that the cylinder has to be pretty big because a shotgun barrel, even .410, is a lot bigger than the normal crane or quill. And since the cylinder is big, the frame has to be big, also. That, of course, will allow more rounds in the cylinder, but it also means even more weight.

And, FWIW, I don't want to even think about the recoil of a handgun firing a 3" Magnum shotshell.

Jim

**4V50 Gary** · June 21, 2014, 06:26 AM

Sorry, no pictures. I didn't see the fellow on Friday. From Tues-Wed he was a regular in the classroom I was in and was busy using the pantograph to engrave the pistol barrel with its caliber. The cylinder was about 3" in diameter and at least 2" long. As an older gentleman, he would not try to fire it off hand and sandbagged from the bench.

**Mike Irwin** · June 23, 2014, 08:53 AM

If I remember correctly the original LeMats had a 20 gauge shot barrel, so a 28 would allow the cylinder to be slightly smaller in diameter.

thickice · June 24, 2014, 11:57 AM

Just curious, how would you load the shotgun barrel?

Trum4n1208 · June 24, 2014, 01:30 PM

If the LeMat breaks open like a Webley, I believe that would allow you to load a shotgun shell just like you would your normal cartridge.

**Mike Irwin** · June 25, 2014, 07:40 AM

Original LeMats were, of course, muzzleloaders.

Jim Watson · June 25, 2014, 07:54 AM

There were also pinfire LeMats, but the shot barrel was still muzzle loaded.

http://www.horstheld.com/0-Lemat-123.htm

**Mike Irwin** · June 25, 2014, 08:31 AM

I know that at least a few pinfire LeMats were made, but it was my understanding that all of the ones used by the Confederacy were percussion.

Jim Watson · June 25, 2014, 12:25 PM

Sure, warn't no way us'ns could get them funny little cattiges.
But that is the first mention of the CSA in this thread.

Additional Google finds that there was a centerfire in 1869. Even the central shot barrel was breechloading.
http://www.horstheld.com/0-Lemat-25.htm

Johnny Ringo on tv, 1959, had a LeMat, described in wiki
"Ringo's LeMat most resembles the historical percussion model LeMat but features a top break cartridge-fed design."
Unfortunately imfdb has no coverage beyond a bare mention.
There are some pictures showing the gun layout in publicity photos on the www.

**Mike Irwin** · June 25, 2014, 01:06 PM

"Sure, warn't no way us'ns could get them funny little cattiges."

The cartridges weren't the problem. From what I'm reading, they were the standard 12mm pinfires.

The South used some thousands of pinfire revolvers obtained from the French and smuggled through the blockade.

The issue is the production of pinfire LeMats.

I can't find any hard and fast numbers, but it would appear that the production numbers wouldn't occupy all 10 fingers...

And yes, I was the first to mention the CSA. They were the primary user of the LeMat.

Gaucho Gringo · July 13, 2014, 09:01 PM

Probably because it had been invented by Jean Alexander Le Mat from New Orleans in conjunction with P. G. T. Beauregard a noted Confederate General before the Civil War.

June 18, 2014, 07:40 PM	#1
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Updated LeMat A retired machinist who is taking a summer class at Trinidad State JC NRA's summer gunsmithing program brought in his home built .357 Maximum over a 28 gauge revolver. It's a break open ala Webley but the lockwork is single action only. I'll see if I can get a photo or two. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

June 18, 2014, 07:51 PM	#2
Colt46 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: Campbell Ca Posts: 1,090	Pricked my ears up Looking forward to this.

June 18, 2014, 07:56 PM	#3
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Looking foreard to seeing, this one. ... 28GA. !!! Sounds interesting and what a project to bite into !! .... Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

June 19, 2014, 10:28 AM	#6
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Did he offer to allow you to fire the first rounds? __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

June 19, 2014, 11:28 AM	#7
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	There was someone who would convert replica LeMats to 38 SPL - way back when. I don't remember the details. Maybe Taurus could build a Judge with 410s around a 12 gauge? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

June 18, 2014, 08:16 PM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Wouldn't that constitute a SBS? Or maybe a DD? I understand that Taurus could not license a 28 ga super judge for sale here.

June 18, 2014, 09:00 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Legally, it would be OK if the shotgun barrel had some rifling. But I question any break top in a powerful cartridge; the original LeMats were open top, but both charges were fairly light, nothing like the .357 Maximum. Jim

June 20, 2014, 04:31 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	One drawback (and which existed in the original LeMat) is that the cylinder has to be pretty big because a shotgun barrel, even .410, is a lot bigger than the normal crane or quill. And since the cylinder is big, the frame has to be big, also. That, of course, will allow more rounds in the cylinder, but it also means even more weight. And, FWIW, I don't want to even think about the recoil of a handgun firing a 3" Magnum shotshell. Jim

June 21, 2014, 06:26 AM	#9
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	My apologies Sorry, no pictures. I didn't see the fellow on Friday. From Tues-Wed he was a regular in the classroom I was in and was busy using the pantograph to engrave the pistol barrel with its caliber. The cylinder was about 3" in diameter and at least 2" long. As an older gentleman, he would not try to fire it off hand and sandbagged from the bench. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

June 23, 2014, 08:53 AM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	If I remember correctly the original LeMats had a 20 gauge shot barrel, so a 28 would allow the cylinder to be slightly smaller in diameter. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 24, 2014, 11:57 AM	#11
thickice Member Join Date: December 15, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 69	Just curious, how would you load the shotgun barrel?

June 24, 2014, 01:30 PM	#12
Trum4n1208 Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2013 Posts: 173	If the LeMat breaks open like a Webley, I believe that would allow you to load a shotgun shell just like you would your normal cartridge.

June 25, 2014, 07:40 AM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Original LeMats were, of course, muzzleloaders. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 25, 2014, 07:54 AM	#14
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	There were also pinfire LeMats, but the shot barrel was still muzzle loaded. http://www.horstheld.com/0-Lemat-123.htm

June 25, 2014, 08:31 AM	#15
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	I know that at least a few pinfire LeMats were made, but it was my understanding that all of the ones used by the Confederacy were percussion. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 25, 2014, 12:25 PM	#16
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Sure, warn't no way us'ns could get them funny little cattiges. But that is the first mention of the CSA in this thread. Additional Google finds that there was a centerfire in 1869. Even the central shot barrel was breechloading. http://www.horstheld.com/0-Lemat-25.htm Johnny Ringo on tv, 1959, had a LeMat, described in wiki "Ringo's LeMat most resembles the historical percussion model LeMat but features a top break cartridge-fed design." Unfortunately imfdb has no coverage beyond a bare mention. There are some pictures showing the gun layout in publicity photos on the www. Last edited by Jim Watson; June 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM.

June 25, 2014, 01:06 PM	#17
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"Sure, warn't no way us'ns could get them funny little cattiges." The cartridges weren't the problem. From what I'm reading, they were the standard 12mm pinfires. The South used some thousands of pinfire revolvers obtained from the French and smuggled through the blockade. The issue is the production of pinfire LeMats. I can't find any hard and fast numbers, but it would appear that the production numbers wouldn't occupy all 10 fingers... And yes, I was the first to mention the CSA. They were the primary user of the LeMat. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 13, 2014, 09:01 PM	#18
Gaucho Gringo Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2007 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 366	Probably because it had been invented by Jean Alexander Le Mat from New Orleans in conjunction with P. G. T. Beauregard a noted Confederate General before the Civil War. __________________ 357 Taurus Gaucho, 22 Heritage RR, 2-Pietta 1858 44 NMA Remingtons, Pietta, Euroarms & ASM 36 1851 Navies, 31 Uberti 1849, 12 ga H&R Topper, 16 Ga Western Field, 43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block, 44 ASM Colt Walker, High Point C9 9mm, Winchester 1906 22, Rossi 62 22 rifle, Uberti 1860, H&A & IJ 32 S&W BreakTop, 36 Euroarms 1858, 32 H&R 04, 22mag NAA SS BP revolver, .44 Rodgers & Spencer, IJ 38 S&W BreakTop, IJ 22 Sealed 8