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Old February 26, 2008, 08:35 AM   #151
MLeake
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Stupid question

I have to confess ignorance here:

Why is it safe to leave the hammer down on a live round with a DA revolver or a DA auto? Is it just a function of the higher force required to move the hammer back? What keeps an impact on the hammer from firing off the round?

I was taught that it's safe to carry my Sig P220 that way (decocker only), but nobody ever actually explained why it's safe.
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Old February 26, 2008, 09:51 AM   #152
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Mleake,

Modern DA revolvers and DA autos are designed and built to safely be carried hammer down on a chambered round, older pre-Vietnam era firearms it just a toss-up. From beefed up firing-pin springs (non-series 80 1911) to pistol hammers that don't drop far enough to impact the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled, then there are transer-safety bars. Different manufactureers use differnet designs.

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Old February 26, 2008, 10:02 AM   #153
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This doesn't work if you have snag-free sights common to many concealed carry guns. So then you have to hook the muzzle end (which is really hard if you have a FLGR and adds an additional layer of danger to the rack because of a lack of muzzle safety) or do a friction rack by pressing the top of the slide against your thigh or hip with enough force that it will be held in place with friction as you push against the gun to cause it to rack.
I have never had that issue, but I also won't use Novak style sights. I've never had a problem doing it with Heinie Straight 8s, Trijicons or Mepros. I also put a piece of skateboard tape on top of the slide in front of the rear sight.


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Most ranges will not let you practice any of these one-handed racks because of muzzle orientation/safety issues.
Quite true, the same way most ranges won't let you practice from a holster.
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Old February 26, 2008, 12:31 PM   #154
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this made me laugh:

Quote:
MLeake
I think my favorite instructor line (vehicle extrication drill) was:

"Don't shoot the truck! It's leased!"

Amazingly, we didn't shoot the truck.
That's funny cause my buddy shot through the window (thinking it was open), I laughed he paid.
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Old February 26, 2008, 07:26 PM   #155
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That's funny cause my buddy shot through the window (thinking it was open), I laughed he paid.
That's why you use junkers, running junkers if you need to drive them, but junkers none the less. If you shoot enough around, near, over or under them, they will eventually get hit. Stuff happens.
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Old February 26, 2008, 07:39 PM   #156
Art Eatman
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DonR, there was an article in The American Rifleman some fifty years ago about an MP (might have been an SP, since I vaguely recall that he was stationed at Key West) who by military regulation had to carry with an empty chamber and the hammer down in the GI flap-type holster.

Open the flap, draw, snag the military-type rear sight on his pistol belt and then have at it. He demonstrated that it was faster than using his other hand to rack the slide, plus there was the benefit of having the other hand free to fend off somebody or pull his nightstick.

Art
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Old February 26, 2008, 09:34 PM   #157
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A good topic draws lots of debate .... Like this one. My only carry gun is a Keltec P3AT. I ALWAYS have one in the chamber ready to fire. The P3 is small and sometimes hard to slingshot the slide in a confined place .... like sitting in the front seat of your car with the steering wheel in the way. I would hate for that one time I have to rack the slide and the edge of the hollowpoint round fails to chamber properly and hangs up on something internal .... This exact thing can happen to any gun whether it is a $250 Keltec or a $1250 custom Kimber.
Those precious seconds of trying to clear a jam may cost you dearly.
What happens if your attacker jumps out and cuts your arm with a knife disabling your arm?
What happens if the bad guy has you over the hood of your car and you have one arm trying to keep him pushed away?
What if it's not a bad guy but a big loose pit bull that comes out of nowhere and grabs your arm that you threw up to defend yourself against his bite?
What if it's a gang banger that comes up to your window from the blind side of your car, and you have one arm tied up putting on your seat belt. Now you are totally vulnerable. Can you stop this car jacking with an empty gun?
What if you are coming from the store and loading groceries in your car and one hand is wrapped up in the plastic bag handles .... Or you are strapping your child or grandshild on their car seat ???

In every one of the above scenario's .... it is virtually impossible to get a round in the chamber in time when the bad guy jumps you or is in your face from out of nowhere. It may be impossible to even get a round in, period. The obvious solution is to keep one in the pipe ....keep that gun loaded as you are not always in a situation where you have both hands free.
That is your only insurance that you can get a shot off fast enough.
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Old February 26, 2008, 09:48 PM   #158
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DonR, there was an article in The American Rifleman some fifty years ago about an MP (might have been an SP, since I vaguely recall that he was stationed at Key West) who by military regulation had to carry with an empty chamber and the hammer down in the GI flap-type holster.

Open the flap, draw, snag the military-type rear sight on his pistol belt and then have at it. He demonstrated that it was faster than using his other hand to rack the slide, plus there was the benefit of having the other hand free to fend off somebody or pull his nightstick.
I believe I know the article you're talking about, I think it may have been republished in the 70's or 80's. IIRC, he did it static without someone actually trying to knock his brains in. Don't get me wrong, chamber empty can be a viable option through training, Israel has done it for years. They also train that way from day one. But the reality is that most people won't train it to the point that they are proficient at combatives like an Israeli Commando.
I've been handcuffed at various times by the same type of restriction(empty chamber) usually based on someone's(leadership) lack of knowledge, training and proficiency.
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Old February 27, 2008, 02:38 AM   #159
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Train the way you carry, and carry the way you train.

Most of us live comfortable middle or upper class lifestyles. Danger is simply not lurking around every corner.

Nonetheless, we carry because we know -- and it has been demonstrated -- that even the upscale mall or neighborhood which "feels" safe, can be violated without notice.

Carrying chambered requires absolute discipline, rigid training, and a strict manual of arms. The gun may be safe while on your person, but it is an ever-present danger while off your person. Where is it when you are in the shower? or in bed? or out washing the car? When the gun is removed do you lock it up? or clear the chamber?

Every moment that chambered weapon is off your person is exposure to Murphy's Law. You need to get it right 100% of the time, all of your life. Murphy only needs one chance to wipe out your lifetime perfect record.

Some gun owners may not have the opportunity to adequately train for chambered carry, or may feel they lack the discipline required. This is not to be mocked; it is a demonstration of sound judgement, and understanding of their limitations. (Certainly, all of us can think of one time when we did something stupid with a chambered weapon.)

However, considerations regarding response time and the likelihood of losing the gun to an assailant are valid. I would encourage proponents of non-chambered carry to reconsider their commitment to training. Training will bring more confidence.

Additionally, that gun is meant to protect your loved ones -- buy one with multiple safeties protecting the chambered round (trigger, drop, striker). The fine choices available leave no excuse for a cheap, unsafe gun.

In any event, train the way you carry, and carry the way you train. When the threat strikes, you will be surprised and frightened. Blood is drained from your extremities and rushes to your core organs. Clear thinking will be difficult, fine motor skills are degraded and simple procedures (racking the slide) will become complex.

Your success will depend on learned habit and muscle memory. Everything you do sloppy in training, you will do sloppy during the threat. Everything you do right in training, will support you facing the threat.
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Old February 27, 2008, 05:50 AM   #160
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No Time To Rack Remington 870...

When a murder suspect, still armed with a .38 special revolver, UNEXPECTEDLY responded to my command to come out from his hiding place.

Fortunately, he focused on the muzzle of my issue 12 gauge and quickly determined that he wanted to go peaceably. HE never knew the difference!
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Old February 27, 2008, 10:15 AM   #161
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Some bits and pieces: I've always figured that my thinking should be about what action to take, not how to do it. The "how to" should be reflex. That simplifies the whole deal.

Ronin Colman first exposed me to, "As you train, so will you perform," back in 1980 in a combat pistol course. Watching folks in IPSC competition proved him to be absolutely correct. Whether you call it "muscle memory" or "reflex", it's creating a pattern of behavior via repetition. (Hey, I was able to learn stuff even after over thirty years of messing with the 1911!)

For me, then, carrying cocked and locked removes any thinking about, "I gotta remember to rack the slide!" or, "I'm in trouble; what do I do first?" from the equation. I can stay focussed on the threat and on tactics. Simplifies the equation.

'As you train, so will you perform.": Don't change your pattern. If you normally carry with an empty chamber and change to carrying cocked and locked, your own training may have you draw, rack the slide--and watch a round fall to the ground, distracting you from what you really oughta be watching. And it just cost you 14% of your capability. The opposite scenario can be a real loser. Helluva note to go flatline because you thought it WAS loaded.

For those concerned abut clothing rubbing the safety to the off position, I note that while the extended thumb safety may be Tacticool, the standard old GI safety has far less lug protruding to do that rubbing. FWIW.

Just some notions...

Art
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Old February 27, 2008, 10:35 AM   #162
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Quote:
Please cite some stats showing the risk of AD from a properly handled weapon.
Irrelevant, IMO, given the fact that so few people handle their weapons properly all of the time.
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Old February 27, 2008, 10:41 AM   #163
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In all seriousness...what does that mean? That I should carry chamber empty because it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling? I guess I'm actually looking for a more defineable physical advantage which would be conferred by chamber empty carry.
It means just that...what is your personal situation? That defines what is better. MLeake points out the number of ADs at the clearing barrel. If you are in a position that require clearing the chamber a lot, then chamber empty might be a better option. Of course the bullet design can also figure into that because of possible bullet setback. The gun you choose might be one with a particularly difficult 1st DA shot, and thus you get a faster, more accurate shot by racking the slide to get the first round out SA. There are all sorts of advantages and disadvantages to each mode depending on each person, their situation , the gun they carry, and so on. The trick is finding which advantages/disadvantages impact you and making a decision based on that.
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Old February 27, 2008, 10:44 AM   #164
David Armstrong
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How do you rack a slide one-handed?
There are a number of alternatives, generally focused around using some part of the slide or sights pushed against something else. Depending on the gun it can be rather quick and easy or darned near impossible.
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Old February 27, 2008, 11:46 AM   #165
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I'm coming late to this party, but I might as well through in my $0.02. I will always carry a 1911 in condition 1 (cocked and locked) for the following reasons:

[1] That's how I've been trained at schools such as Gunsite.

[2] I'm not going to count on have two hands available if I need my gun. I am more confident of my ability to clear my weapon safely than I am confident that I'll have the use of two hands in an emergency. The former is within my control, and the latter is not.

[3] I acknowledge that, statistically, the odds of me actually having to use my gun are minuscule. But based on my training I'm convinced that in the highly unlikely event that I do need to use my gun, the odds of needing to do so quickly are overwhelming. As I see it, the likelihood of needing to use a gun and the likelihood of needing to use it quickly are completely independent variables. The fact that I'm unlikely to need a gun is not, therefore, a good reason to carry a 1911 in other than a state of readiness (i. e., condition 1).

[4] Even though it is possible to rack a slide with only one hand, it is still slower than presenting a pistol carried in condition 1.
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Old February 27, 2008, 12:13 PM   #166
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Irrelevant?

I think it's fair to say that there are MANY of us who are well trained in safe weapons handling, so I don't think it would be at all irrelevant to list statistics for numbers of AD's that happen solely due to weapon malfunctions.

(Note the number of military and LE backgrounds among the posting group)

Assuming we don't put our fingers on triggers prematurely, place weapons in improper containers with things that can switch off safeties and manipulate triggers, etc, how often do quality brand firearms actually AD?

I think that would be an entirely relevant statistic to this debate. My suspicion is that nobody has such stats at hand, and therefore anecdotal evidence is factoring in more heavily than it otherwise might.

With my C3 in a thumbreak holster, cocked and locked, I don't think the odds of an AD are even close to significant.

Having fended off an attack or two, human and canine, I can say that the odds of my having both hands free are entirely dependent on how quickly I note the situation developing. Sad to say, sometimes there are sucker punches (and silent bites) in life.
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Old February 27, 2008, 03:46 PM   #167
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But the reality is that most people won't train it to the point that they are proficient at combatives like an Israeli Commando.
The reality is that the Israeli doctrine developed specifically because of the large number of folks with very limited training, not becaue of those with particularly high levels of training.
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Old February 27, 2008, 04:07 PM   #168
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I think it's fair to say that there are MANY of us who are well trained in safe weapons handling, so I don't think it would be at all irrelevant to list statistics for numbers of AD's that happen solely due to weapon malfunctions.
But that directly ignores the fact that the overwhelming number of gun owners have minimal levels of training, much less anything approaching well trained. And of course it restricts the ADs to a very narrow category, those that happen solely as a result of weapon malfunctions. Seems you are already stacking the deck instead of looking at the broad issue.
Quote:
Note the number of military and LE backgrounds among the posting group
And we all know how few ADs occur in the military or LE!
Quote:
Assuming we don't....
But we do those things, and we do it a lot, so why would we assume otherwise?
Quote:
My suspicion is that nobody has such stats at hand, and therefore anecdotal evidence is factoring in more heavily than it otherwise might.
True, such stats are not collected. But I would venture a guess that even in this august company the number of AD/ND incidents far outnumbers the "and then I had to quick-draw my gun with only one hand" incidents. One source might be a look at the older NYPD SOP9 info. For example, in 1991, while there were 94 gunfights, there were 70 ADs. Given the fact that these guys were actively going out hunting fo the BG, I would suggest their gunfight chances would be much higher than non-LE. One might also assume the AD rate would be lower, based on greater training (either assumption is open to challenge, I realize, and is presented for general info discussion purposes only.)
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Old February 27, 2008, 07:01 PM   #169
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Quote:
David Armstrong worte:
The reality is that the Israeli doctrine developed specifically because of the large number of folks with very limited training, not becaue of those with particularly high levels of training.
And because they had a variety of handguns, it made a standard drill for all of them impossible.
Empty chamber gun, draw, chamber round, fire, works for pretty much any auto out there.

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Old February 27, 2008, 08:33 PM   #170
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Stacking the deck

David Armstrong wrote: But that directly ignores the fact that the overwhelming number of gun owners have minimal levels of training, much less anything approaching well trained. And of course it restricts the ADs to a very narrow category, those that happen solely as a result of weapon malfunctions. Seems you are already stacking the deck instead of looking at the broad issue.


Given the nature of the discussion, in a Tactics and Training forum, I think it's a fair assumption that the original question was asked with a well-trained operator in mind. Trying to answer that question for the gun owning population as a whole stacks the deck the other way, IMHO.

For a newbie gun owner or a do-the-minimum-to-qualify CCW, I wouldn't recommend a semi-auto in the first place, let alone a cocked and locked 1911. However, for those of us who train actively, and especially for those who train for potential hostile environments, cocked and locked offers distinct potential advantages, because there are times when the weak hand is busy or restrained.

With that in mind, statistics about the risk of carrying in cocked and locked, vs improper manipulation of controls, would be useful to the discussion.
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Old February 27, 2008, 11:08 PM   #171
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Here are some scenarios when you should be locked and cocked:

1. You have been knocked down and are about to be shot

2. You have been knocked down and are about to be beaten with a blunt object

3. You have been stabbed and are down

4. You are at an intersection about to be car-jacked by an armed assailant (sp?)

5. You are at the barber shop and an armed robber points a gun at your barber's head

6. You are approched in the mall parking lot by three assailants

7. You are sitting quietly typing on your computer and the front door flies open

8. There is an intruder in your house, you are in your defensive position, and you do not want to give away your location and the fact that you are armed. All that intruder is going to hear before the blast is the click of the safety.

Cocked and locked is for people who are ready to defend themselves against iminant (sp?) death or serious bodily injury.

Not cocked and locked is for people who think the "Ka-Ching" sound is a good deterence to iminant death or serious bodily injury.
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Old February 28, 2008, 10:51 AM   #172
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Why did we go to cocked and locked! I opine that cocked and locked is inherently dangerous due to significant number of times that folks forget to manipulate the safety. It happens to trained and practiced folks all the time. Watch the 1911 crew at matches with high level shooters. OOPS.

Thus the only gun to carry is the immediately shootable Glock series.
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Old February 28, 2008, 12:18 PM   #173
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Glenn's Right!

I've seen it time after time and AGREE!
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Old February 28, 2008, 03:51 PM   #174
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Glenn E. Meyer

Why not a SIG or CZ-75? From the DA neither one needs to have a safety turned off.

FWIW I have NEVER seen a person shooting competition forget to turn the safety off that was shootin a cocked and locked pistol. I have seen people skin a Beretta 92 and forget to turn the safety off, pulled a couple times turned and swept most of us watching with a hot weapon! He wanted to know why his pistol was broke? The guy never fired from the DA when playing at the range and rules were everyone had to use all safeties on the gun. OOPS.
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Old February 28, 2008, 04:27 PM   #175
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I've seen high level shooters forget the safety and do the Oh, Poopy yelling dance several times.

With a Glock you have the ultimate handgun for simplicity of use and reliability.
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