Hawes question

jimbarry · July 22, 2014, 08:47 AM

I bought a Hawes SAA in 357. On the barrel is (Hawes firearms Co. Los Angeles Ca Made in Western germany by JP Sauer & Sohn). I see a Hawes for sale on Gunbroker and all it says (Hawes firearms Co. Los Angeles Ca Germany). What is the difference? I thought they stopped making these in the 70's. The German reunification was 1990. Before that it was Western Germany. Any info as to why it says only Germany?

Bob Wright · July 22, 2014, 09:48 AM

J.P Sauer & Sohn quit making the Hawes revolvers around 1970 or so, but sold the rights and machinery to another German firm, whose name escapes me now, who continued to make these Single Actions for some years afterwards.

Bob Wright

**44 AMP** · July 22, 2014, 10:14 AM

Quote:

The German reunification was 1990. Before that it was Western Germany. Any info as to why it says only Germany?

Many, if not most of the Germans I spoke with on the subject, while I lived there in the latter 70s were very firm in regard to the fact that there was only ONE Germany.

They considered the East /West Germany to be a temporary situation. And, viewed long term, they were right...

Real Gun · July 22, 2014, 11:51 AM

If we knew the answer in great detail, what difference would it make? I have two of their guns and feel fortunate to own them.

jimbarry · July 22, 2014, 04:14 PM

I should have added in my post if anyone has info on the manufacturer or dates the Hawes SAA without (Sig Sauer & Sohn) and (Western Germany) were made.
The difference to me would be knowing some history about them so I know if I would want to buy one

Real Gun · July 22, 2014, 06:20 PM

Check with Heritage Arm in Naples, Florida

Heritage Arms
5760 Shirley Street #1,
Naples, Florida 34109
E-mail: [email protected]
Phone: 239-596-4400
Fax: 239-596-4404

RJay · July 22, 2014, 10:02 PM

Odd that, I didn't Hawes or JP Sauer and Sonn were associated with Heritage Arms??

Real Gun · July 23, 2014, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Odd that, I didn't Hawes or JP Sauer and Sonn were associated with Heritage Arms??

I didn't say they were, but they regularly handle the guns, including a few current listings. I have one of their Sauer guns and thought they would be a good source to ask.

jimbarry · July 23, 2014, 08:05 AM

I will contact them (Heritage) and see if they might have some info

jimbarry · July 23, 2014, 08:59 AM

I found a old post on Ar15.com
Every German SIG Sauer made after the reunification of Germany (October 3, 1990) is marked "Germany" Before "made in Western Germany"

Now these are Sigs but it seems it would hold true to other older models JP Sauer & Sohn may have been assembled after reunification and still imported by Hawes with "Germany" on the barrel?

I think I have too much time on my hands

Real Gun · July 23, 2014, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Now these are Sigs

I see no indication that the Swiss Industrial Company - Schweizerische Industrie-Gesellschaft, known as SIG, makes revolvers.

Bob Wright · July 23, 2014, 03:40 PM

J.P. Sauer & Sohn merged with SIG to become at that time SIG-Sauer. Has since become SIG.

Bob Wright

Real Gun · July 24, 2014, 10:28 AM

Yes, of course, but they don't list revolvers on their website.

Bob Wright · July 24, 2014, 10:45 AM

The Siongle Action line was sold by SIG to Wieauch. Go to thise address:

http://eaacorp.com/weihrauch/

Bob Wright

g.willikers · July 24, 2014, 11:30 AM

Thanks for that info.
I've been kind of getting the itch for a sixgun.
Having owned a few Sauer - Hawes back in the day, might have to take a look at the EAA - Weihrauch versions.

CajunBass · July 24, 2014, 12:26 PM

I'm sort of a sucker for the "oddballs" that show up at my local dealer from time to time. Such was the case with this Hawes "Western Six Shooter" in 22 LR I picked up a few weeks ago.

It's marked "Hawes Firearm Company, Los Angeles, California, Made in Western Germany, by J.P. Sauer & Sohn." on the left side of the barrel. On the right side it says "Western Sixshooter, 22 Caliber."

I got it mostly because it was inexpensive, and to be honest it reminded me of a set of "Fanner 50's" I had as a kid. It's made of some kind of aluminum alloy I guess with a steel liner in the barrel, and steel inserts in the cylinder. The grips are plastic.

It's no Ruger or Colt, but after tightening up a couple of screws, it seems to be tight, and reasonably well made. I haven't fired it yet but see no reason it shouldn't be a good shooter.

g.willikers · July 24, 2014, 01:16 PM

The centerfire Hawes were excellent.
I preferred them to the name brand sixguns of the time.

Bob Wright · July 24, 2014, 08:09 PM

CajunBass said:

Quote:

............ It's made of some kind of aluminum alloy I guess with a steel liner in the barrel, and steel inserts in the cylinder. The grips are plastic.

I believe the alloy is ZAMAK, a zinc based alloy that originated in Germany. ZAMAK is an acronym from "Zinc Aluminum, MAgnesium, Kopfer (copper).

Bob Wright

g.willikers · July 25, 2014, 09:15 AM

Note that the alloy frame was for the .22, not the centerfire versions.
Although that alloy is stronger than it sounds.
Some of the alloy frame, cheapie .38 revolvers with "West Germany" markings hold up well.
Probably similar to the brass framed guns of the Civil War.

Real Gun · July 25, 2014, 09:43 AM

Other information re the history of JP Sauer & Sohn.

http://tinyurl.com/mxlw3ws

**Aguila Blanca** · July 25, 2014, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CajunBass

I'm sort of a sucker for the "oddballs" that show up at my local dealer from time to time. Such was the case with this Hawes "Western Six Shooter" in 22 LR I picked up a few weeks ago.

It's marked "Hawes Firearm Company, Los Angeles, California, Made in Western Germany, by J.P. Sauer & Sohn." on the left side of the barrel. On the right side it says "Western Sixshooter, 22 Caliber."

That looks exactly like the .22 I had back in the 60s. But mine was marked with the maker's name under one of the grip panels. For a long time I thought I remembered it as Sauer, but now I'm sure it wasn't. Might have been Schmidt.

Bob Wright · July 25, 2014, 03:23 PM

Here is my .357 Magnum Hy Hunter, made by J.P. Sauer & Sohn, forerunner of the Hawes. The frame, barrel, cylinder, and innards are steel; the trigger guard, backstrap, and ejector assembly are Zamak.

Or rather, WERE ZAMAK:

I found a brass trigger guard for a Ubertri SA, and a backstrap for a Hawes and sort of fit them on my gun, and made some grips from scrap walnut I had on hand.

Bob Wright

CajunBass · July 25, 2014, 04:24 PM

Quote:

I believe the alloy is ZAMAK, a zinc based alloy that originated in Germany. ZAMAK is an acronym from "Zinc Aluminum, MAgnesium, Kopfer (copper).

Yea, I figured it was ZAMAK, but I got dragged into a ZAMAK argument once in a Hi-Point thread, so I just started to call it all "some kind of aluminum alloy."

jimbarry · July 25, 2014, 05:55 PM

Thanks for the input and info
I bought my Hawes 357 and as far as I can see it has never been fired but the trigger guard, backstrap and ejector tube shows the wear of a gun used more, apparently just from handling. I de-blued them and it Looked like aluminum but seemed somewhat different (softer?). So I am assuming it is the alloy Zamak
Thanks again

**Aguila Blanca** · July 26, 2014, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

I found a brass trigger guard for a Ubertri SA, and a backstrap for a Hawes and sort of fit them on my gun, and made some grips from scrap walnut I had on hand.

Very nice, and certainly an improvement from several perspectives. Definitely worthwhile for a .357 Magnum. My little .22 cost me a whopping $25 NIB back in the 60s. If I had it today, I probably still couldn't justify the cost of swapping in a brass strap and real walnut grips (and I'm not skilled enough to make revolver grips for myself).

Quote:

Originally Posted by CajunBass

Yea, I figured it was ZAMAK, but I got dragged into a ZAMAK argument once in a Hi-Point thread, so I just started to call it all "some kind of aluminum alloy."

About the one thing Zamak isn't is aluminum. Call it "pot metal," Zamak, "Chiapalloy" or whatever, it's basically a zinc alloy. The aluminum content is typically only about 4 percent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamak

July 22, 2014, 10:02 PM	#7
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Odd that, I didn't Hawes or JP Sauer and Sonn were associated with Heritage Arms?? __________________ Ron James

July 24, 2014, 10:45 AM	#14
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	The Siongle Action line was sold by SIG to Wieauch. Go to thise address: http://eaacorp.com/weihrauch/ Bob Wright __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment.

July 24, 2014, 11:30 AM	#15
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Thanks for that info. I've been kind of getting the itch for a sixgun. Having owned a few Sauer - Hawes back in the day, might have to take a look at the EAA - Weihrauch versions. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 24, 2014, 12:26 PM	#16
CajunBass Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2005 Location: North Chesterfield, Virginia Posts: 4,767	I'm sort of a sucker for the "oddballs" that show up at my local dealer from time to time. Such was the case with this Hawes "Western Six Shooter" in 22 LR I picked up a few weeks ago. It's marked "Hawes Firearm Company, Los Angeles, California, Made in Western Germany, by J.P. Sauer & Sohn." on the left side of the barrel. On the right side it says "Western Sixshooter, 22 Caliber." I got it mostly because it was inexpensive, and to be honest it reminded me of a set of "Fanner 50's" I had as a kid. It's made of some kind of aluminum alloy I guess with a steel liner in the barrel, and steel inserts in the cylinder. The grips are plastic. It's no Ruger or Colt, but after tightening up a couple of screws, it seems to be tight, and reasonably well made. I haven't fired it yet but see no reason it shouldn't be a good shooter. __________________ For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 (NKJV)

July 24, 2014, 01:16 PM	#17
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	The centerfire Hawes were excellent. I preferred them to the name brand sixguns of the time. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 22, 2014, 08:47 AM	#1
jimbarry Junior Member Join Date: July 19, 2014 Posts: 5	Hawes question I bought a Hawes SAA in 357. On the barrel is (Hawes firearms Co. Los Angeles Ca Made in Western germany by JP Sauer & Sohn). I see a Hawes for sale on Gunbroker and all it says (Hawes firearms Co. Los Angeles Ca Germany). What is the difference? I thought they stopped making these in the 70's. The German reunification was 1990. Before that it was Western Germany. Any info as to why it says only Germany?

July 22, 2014, 09:48 AM	#2
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	J.P Sauer & Sohn quit making the Hawes revolvers around 1970 or so, but sold the rights and machinery to another German firm, whose name escapes me now, who continued to make these Single Actions for some years afterwards. Bob Wright

July 22, 2014, 11:51 AM	#4
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	If we knew the answer in great detail, what difference would it make? I have two of their guns and feel fortunate to own them.

July 22, 2014, 04:14 PM	#5
jimbarry Junior Member Join Date: July 19, 2014 Posts: 5	I should have added in my post if anyone has info on the manufacturer or dates the Hawes SAA without (Sig Sauer & Sohn) and (Western Germany) were made. The difference to me would be knowing some history about them so I know if I would want to buy one

July 22, 2014, 06:20 PM	#6
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	Check with Heritage Arm in Naples, Florida Heritage Arms 5760 Shirley Street #1, Naples, Florida 34109 E-mail: [email protected] Phone: 239-596-4400 Fax: 239-596-4404

July 23, 2014, 08:05 AM	#9
jimbarry Junior Member Join Date: July 19, 2014 Posts: 5	I will contact them (Heritage) and see if they might have some info

July 23, 2014, 08:59 AM	#10
jimbarry Junior Member Join Date: July 19, 2014 Posts: 5	I found a old post on Ar15.com Every German SIG Sauer made after the reunification of Germany (October 3, 1990) is marked "Germany" Before "made in Western Germany" Now these are Sigs but it seems it would hold true to other older models JP Sauer & Sohn may have been assembled after reunification and still imported by Hawes with "Germany" on the barrel? I think I have too much time on my hands

July 23, 2014, 03:40 PM	#12
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	J.P. Sauer & Sohn merged with SIG to become at that time SIG-Sauer. Has since become SIG. Bob Wright

July 24, 2014, 10:28 AM	#13
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	Yes, of course, but they don't list revolvers on their website.

July 25, 2014, 09:15 AM	#19
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Note that the alloy frame was for the .22, not the centerfire versions. Although that alloy is stronger than it sounds. Some of the alloy frame, cheapie .38 revolvers with "West Germany" markings hold up well. Probably similar to the brass framed guns of the Civil War. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 25, 2014, 09:43 AM	#20
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	Other information re the history of JP Sauer & Sohn. http://tinyurl.com/mxlw3ws

July 25, 2014, 03:23 PM	#22
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	Here is my .357 Magnum Hy Hunter, made by J.P. Sauer & Sohn, forerunner of the Hawes. The frame, barrel, cylinder, and innards are steel; the trigger guard, backstrap, and ejector assembly are Zamak. Or rather, WERE ZAMAK: I found a brass trigger guard for a Ubertri SA, and a backstrap for a Hawes and sort of fit them on my gun, and made some grips from scrap walnut I had on hand. Bob Wright __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment.

July 25, 2014, 05:55 PM	#24
jimbarry Junior Member Join Date: July 19, 2014 Posts: 5	Thanks for the input and info I bought my Hawes 357 and as far as I can see it has never been fired but the trigger guard, backstrap and ejector tube shows the wear of a gun used more, apparently just from handling. I de-blued them and it Looked like aluminum but seemed somewhat different (softer?). So I am assuming it is the alloy Zamak Thanks again